Conflict over immigration

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RWMorris said:
I suggest you do the same, but that is awfully hard to do if you refuse to look a big part of the evidence.
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Thank you Rachels, for you post(s). I find them very sincere, and I do appreciate your effort to educate me with “evidence” but you will have to trust me on this one. Since retiring, I have done nothing but research this issue (it has been a burning concern of mine for over 18 months now.) I have read dozens of books by credible authors, those with the background and credentials to know, am sometimes on my computer 6 hours a day searching for and verifying new information, am on political forums to further catch grains of truth, and yes, I will admit it has not been an easy task to separate what is true and verifiable from the conspiracy nuts. There are warnings everywhere about the direction this country has taken, from those in a position to know. The political arena is not at all what it appears to be. The conflict over immigration is but one small part of the whole. And the problem is voter apathy and ignorance. I am involved at the moment with programs to try to educate the public, but unfortunately, most are so distressed over the plight of the economy and worry about their families and jobs, there is nothing left to devote to that which is most important - paying attention to what our government has been up to over the past 95 years or longer. (BTW, I am even re-reading American history to further try to put the puzzle pieces together.) A good starting place for anyone who really is interested in truth would be to look at the damage that has been done to the spirit and intent of the Constitution. Look specifically at presidential directives and executive orders and look at recent legislation that has been passed in the stealth of night over the past 7-8 years. (If you dare!)

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I will address Traillius who said, " On some issues US law and catholic teaching conflict. regarding immigration: It is a violation of US code to enter the country without government authorization. It is my understanding of catholic teaching that free movement is taught as a right of humans given by God."

I too, have agonized over what I believe you are saying above. I love my Church and would do nothing contrary to what the Magisterium teaches. I have spent long hours in prayer questioning my own instincts and heart…reading the bishop’s statements on immigration reform and studying Church documents on social justice. I do believe I fully understand their position on the sacredness of human life (which is paramount before national borders) and on a personal level, try to live the gospel message of welcoming the stranger, helping the oppressed and feeding the hungry. That being said, however, I still believe there are many facets of the immigration issue that remain hidden from public view, and I adamantly maintain the bishops do not see and/or understand the political ideology that has been the motiviating force in enticing millions of illegal aliens into this country. I do also believe, that if the published scheduled/goal of the NAU is met by the year 2010 (many are of the opinion this goal will be met much sooner than that,) by that time, perhaps, the real threat, not just to this country, but on a global scale, will be recognized by the world court of bishops, and no doubt, they will speak loudly against the tyranny that would threaten the world.
 
RachelsAlumni said:
Sounds like a conspiracy theory:eek:

I’m not quite sure how to respond since I don’t know what you’re talking about, but AFAIK the concept of globalization isn’t opposed by the Church. It also isn’t the same as Socialism and I’m not positive the Church condemns. CMIIW, but I thought it was Communist-Marxist-Socialism the Church opposes.
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Globalization is not expressly opposed, yet, but is certainly not condoned by the Church. Globalization, whether economic or governmental, has the potential to be in conflict with the principles of subsidiarity and the potential for negative impact on cultural and social diversity.

There is speculation that this will be a major topic of BXVI’s upcoming social encyclical which, based on the following quote, may not be favorable toward globalization:

"In his encyclical, the cardinal said, Pope Benedict “does not want to repeat obvious truths of Catholic social teaching,” but will apply Church teachings to contemporary problems. "I am thinking of globalization and other problems, like the food crisis and climate change," Cardinal Bertone said. "
(source:cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=58708
 
Pope John Paul II talked about globalization in it’s positive aspects. Here’s a link to “Globalising
Solidarity: Caritas Internationalis”

“To globalize solidarity calls for working in close and constant relation with international organizations, which guarantee law and legality, to balance in a new way relations between rich and poor countries, so that aid relations in just one direction will cease, which too often contribute to the increase of the imbalance through a mechanism if permanent debt.” (Pope John Paul II; 17th General Assembly of Caritas International)

Pope Benedict said that there are, “new possibilities and new risks” arising from globalization, which must be faced “with the broadest possible agreement among nations.”

Globalization, he said, “is an opportunity to create a network of understanding and solidarity among peoples, without reducing everything to merely commercial or pragmatic exchanges.” In this network there should be room “for the human problems of each place and, in particular, of emigrants forced to leave their own land in search of better living conditions; something which at times has grave consequences on the individual, family and social spheres.”
 
traillius said:
Further clarification
By illegal I mean entering the country undocumented, in a surreptitious fashion, so as to enter without being discovered and thereby avoid all responsibilities charged upon those whom the government recognizes as specifically present and documented by government regulators. Sorry for the run on sentence.
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But the people do not run away from the good life.
And they would pay taxes , if the law would permit them to pay taxes

Yes , if I break the law I am criminal.
But if the law is not my friend in this life … and desperate poverty forces me to look for the better life… ???
If the people from the rich countries coming for the profit sake to my country and I am forced to run to another country in order to survive and to feed my family and to build my life…???

Now , the illegal emigrants in Europe are facing the persecution and the risk to be imprisoned up till 18 months for being illegal.

I can understand the Europeans , and those threats of the illegal emigrants.
I am not West European and I am not an American , therefore may be I have no right to give my opinion how the prosperous countries should act in order to protect themselves from the different kinds of threats.

But I can understand the feelings of those people also.

In the West of Ukraine , there are a lot of families who made their money on the West Europe and have got back , and started a new life at home being learned how to do the things and today they make the great positive changes in their own country.

West of Ukraine is pro – western just because the people who used to live and work in Europe , could compare the life , could learn all that positive ideas , and later bring it home and to develop its own country.

As I mentioned , I can understand the today’s feelings of those illegal immigrants .
In some countries of Europe , the citizens will get the reward if they will report where the illegal people live or work.
I think the conditions of illegal in the society is similar to the conditions of the leprous of the Old Testaments times , or the conditions of the Jews at the times of Nazi’s persecution.

They are criminals because of their Passports , their needs , their desperate poverty makes them criminals.
They can not complain for the salary cheating , for not being paid , for the sexual violence against them
Where they can complain ?
To the justice ?
To the police ?
Police and justice just wait the reward for arresting them !
They have no right to dream about the joy of holiday , they have no right to dream about love , about marriage .
They can not call the ambulance !
They can not go to the hospital ! ( I do not believe that they can get the real medical help from the red cross or some social organization )
Every step of their life – it’s a fear to be deported .

I do not discuss about the threats of these people for the prosperous societies.
And why all of them are burden and parasites for the prosperous countries.
But I can more understand the H. Chavez , when he says about the Barbarianism of the new European law against the illegal immigrants.
I think it would be more Catholic attitude to be more tolerant to the problems of illegal immigrants.
Its just my thinking and my poor opinions.
 
When you see the homeless people , sleeping in the parks , under the bridges , sleeping on the roofs of the buildings , its not necessary that all of them are the junkeys.
Among them , there might be the normal people , whom life forced to seek the better life abroud in order to support their families at their home countries.
Make your visit to the Caritas or to the Sisters of Maria Teresa Mission , the nuns organization which serves with free dinners for the homeless.
So , visit that place by helping to carry the plates of dinners for the homeless .
You will see that among those people , there are not only the drugs users or people who addicted to the alkohol , but among them there are normal , honest , hard working people.
The people who left their families and children at their home countries , the people who saving every penny , sacrificing on their families , on their young years , on their stomacks.
The people who even eat their dinners there , with the red faces being ashamed of themselves.
In their home country the husbands / wifes are forced to be examined with the long years of loneliness , in their home country the street educates their children , just because they took a risk to seek the better life abroud , in order to survive and to make the life better for their families.
Its a tragedy when the children are in the orphanage when the parents are alive .
Its a tragedy when the street educates the children.
But in some developing countries its a national tragedy.
Broken families , orphans who have alive parents.
And a lot of people moving abroud because of the poverty and needs and impossibility to get a proper job or living in their own country.
The man and women who work abroud , and who actually do the job which you would never do , and work for the wages for which you would never work , and work some times without days off not asking extra payment.
The women often in the deperate circumstances fall in the trap of the sexual violence and slavery .
Some times some professional fornicators deceptively use the naive dreams of those poor illegal women by promising those women the legal papers through the marriage.

I can continue a long story about the valley of humiliation through which those people some times are passing.

Therefore before we call illegal immigrant - the criminal.
We should see the soul of that despised , ignored and desperate human being.
Their soul is no less equal and precious before God than the soul of any one else.
And the God of the Bible is their defender and protector .
The God who bless the individuals and nations who helps these aliens , to make their life better and to rise on their legs up.
 
Athanasiy said:
Therefore before we call illegal immigrant - the criminal.
We should see the soul of that despised , ignored and desperate human being.
Their soul is no less equal and precious before God than the soul of any one else.
And the God of the Bible is their defender and protector .
The God who bless the individuals and nations who helps these aliens , to make their life better and to rise on their legs up.
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I generally agree with everything you have said above and I understand (and personally perform) the Christian duty to help the more unfortunate and poor. The truth of the matter is, we do not know what journey, what experiences, what loss of opportunity, what oppression, what misfortune through their own fault, (or perhaps not) has befallen any of them. And I cannot speak about the illegal aliens in any country but America. However…many laws have been broken and much heartache perpetrated upon the innocent victims in this country. What about the innocent who have had their identities stolen? What about those who have had to deal with credit card fraud? What about those who have had to file for unemployment after losing their jobs, only to be turned down because an illegal is working under their social security number in a different state? These are common place every day scenarios with the 32 million illegals living in this country. What about those who come only for the free health care while there are 48 million citizens without any means of medical care at all for their families. What about the voter fraud being perpetrated by those with false I.D.'s? What about the unsustainable burden on the system that taxpayers have no choice but to pay? David Walker, the former U.S. Controller General has traveled around the country speaking about this. What about the over-crowded schools and the poor education being given U.S. children because of the bi-lingualism that is now law? Seems to me there is another side to this story…one that would expose victims perhaps, that no one is seeing or helping.
 
Athanasiy said:
Make your visit to the Caritas or to the Sisters of Maria Teresa Mission , the nuns organization which serves with free dinners for the homeless.
So , visit that place by helping to carry the plates of dinners for the homeless .

You will see that among those people , there are not only the drugs users or people who addicted to the alkohol , but among them there are normal , honest , hard working people.
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This is so true. I think a large part of the bias against these brothers of ours is that we don’t really see Jesus in them, the way Mother Teresa saw Jesus in the poor & suffering. I know some Americans who voluteer to serve the poor by going to missions abroad, yet fail to see the poor and suffering in their own neighborhood and look down on the beggar for work standing in front of Home Improvement Stores, or Convenience stores. They say, “Oh, He’s an Illegal”, a criminal and thief: he’s here to steal jobs from Americans, steal his treatment for basic medical care. They don’t see Jesus in him.
Athanasiy said:
Therefore before we call illegal immigrant - the criminal.
We should see the soul of that despised , ignored and desperate human being.
Their soul is no less equal and precious before God than the soul of any one else.
And the God of the Bible is their defender and protector .
The God who bless the individuals and nations who helps these aliens , to make their life better and to rise on their legs up.
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:bowdown2:
 
Dear RachelsAlumni !
Thank you very much !
I agree that the native citizens who pay the taxes must have the more rights and accesses to the jobs.
They must have the basic medical care.
Its legitimate for them to defend their own rights.
I just say that what is needed it’s a more compassion and solidarity for those foreigners , who can not find in their own country the means of livelihood .
More heart and more soul - is needed.
The more prosperous nations are obliged , to the extent they are able of course , to give the hand of help for the foreigner who searches for security in need.
And it’s a Christian and human to protect those people.

Some one said that the greatest of evils and the worst of crimes is poverty.
For many of those illegal people , what you wouldn’t even call as necessity – for them those things are the great luxuries , which they can not enjoy.
And many of them live even not dreaming about the joys , which the fully-fledged or fully - righted in the society people are experiencing.
For some of them , the joy is just to look at the photo of the children , or wife or husband , which they did not see for many years , and can not see because if they will go back , they will never will have opportunity to earn the money again.
The joy is to work on a weekend as an opportunity to save some more penny.
The joy to see the policeman who passed by and did not arrested you , when you know that you borrowed your money on the percentage in order to get there…
The joy to stop the pain by not spending money for medicaments…
And some times the reasons for drinking and hooliganism is from that degrading tyranny of need ,
from the despair of not finding the temporary job , and from the cruel life examines , which some times break the families and forces them to a different kinds of addictions like …drugs , alcohol.
Because that kind of life is even in worst conditions than slaves , they are even in the worst conditions than the home animals , because they live in constant fear and stresses , and as there are many examples , when many of these people are coming back to their home countries , they are not with a good health any more.

We live in the money oriented world and money oriented life.
I think that for the prosperous nations , and prosperous people who accustomed to be industrious and hard-working , and who achieving by being industrious and by assiduity , when they see some hints of some looses and dangers to have a little less , they are already getting unrest that they feel the dangers …
But there are the criminals … there are the lazy ones …and system abusers… not only among the illegal emigrants.
Of course its bad , when the people have the feelings that … you owe us every thing , just because we are emigrants… it is that ex-communist mentality , from the people who used to live in the system which yearned for equal division for unequal earnings.
But its also bad , when the richer are getting more rich and the hard working poor are getting more poor in their own rich home country …
Thank you , and God Bless You RachelsAlumni and God Bless every body who takes part in this threat !

But in the case with criminalizing the illegal emigrants ,
I see some contradictive problems for the Christians in the following of directives of civil authorities and the conscience …the obedience to the law and demands of upright conscience…???
 
Hey_Jude said:
Friends - please copy & paste if this hyperlink doesn’t work. Believe what you will. Peace.

youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA

youtube.com/watch?v=_ccxQRaLIOM&feature=channel_page

youtube.com/watch?v=AWirqQHvcZE
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Hey Jude - (Isn’t that the name of a song?)…

Oh yes, this is nothing new and the warnings have been around for a long time. This was actually considered “Conspiracy Theory” by most, mainly because the activities of the Security and Properity Partnership (the name has now been changed to protect the guilty) as described by the .gov web pages did not tell the entire story. BUT Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo both have made videos testifying to its truth. What really gives credence to it is that the Republicans have finally added the words to their party platform that they are opposed to the North American Union. The Constitution Party has as well. Still Americans ignore the warnings, so there you go!

If you want to learn more about the origins of the movement and how it was planned, I suggest you Google “Robert Pastor+North American Union”, also “Tri-Lateral Commission.”
 
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