Conflicted Mormon

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Kolob is a star, not a planet; it’s the star nearest the planet where the Mormon godhead (three separate physical entities, two of which are corporeal) physically resides. Mormons do indeed, however, believe the god of this earth (heavenly father) was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood through his own merit. He is one of countless gods in the cosmos. Mormons DO teach that men can become gods, have their own creation and be worshiped and revered by that creation in the same manner in which Mormons treat the god of earth.

Yes, the logical implication of God the Father having a body of flesh and bones is that He incarnated on some other world. The Mormons say that Jesus did everything the Father did, and they also believe that the passages that talk about God’s finger, hand, back parts, etc mean that the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones. Now, we know how Jesus does, because He incarnated. So, if Jesus only did what He saw the Father do, and He has a body of flesh and bones, then the logical conclusion is that the Father incarnated as well at some point somewhere else. Now, they can say that that doesn’t mean that the Father was any less God when He did, since Jesus didn’t stop being God when He incarnated, but then we wonder if there was another Father of “Heavenly Father”, etc.

I wonder if this other world has white male humans, since that’s what Heavenly Father apparently looks like.

Another thing I find weird about Mormonism.

 

[dianaiad]

Kolob is a star, not a planet; it’s the star nearest the planet where the Mormon godhead (three separate physical entities, two of which are corporeal) physically resides. Mormons do indeed, however, believe the god of this earth (heavenly father) was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood through his own merit. He is one of countless gods in the cosmos. Mormons DO teach that men can become gods, have their own creation and be worshiped and revered by that creation in the same manner in which Mormons treat the god of earth.

Heavenly Father is not the ‘god of this earth.’ He is the Creator of the universe. The whole thing. “Countless worlds have I created…” and all that.

Dang, I wish someone would actually get it right. I have no problem at all with people who disagree with my beliefs and have problems with my doctrine. It’s just that I spend so much of my time correcting really dumb ideas of what that doctrine actually IS, that there’s no time left to have real debates about real issues.

 

[RC_Matt]

Yes, the logical implication of God the Father having a body of flesh and bones is that He incarnated on some other world. The Mormons say that Jesus did everything the Father did, and they also believe that the passages that talk about God’s finger, hand, back parts, etc mean that the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones. Now, we know how Jesus does, because He incarnated. So, if Jesus only did what He saw the Father do, and He has a body of flesh and bones, then the logical conclusion is that the Father incarnated as well at some point somewhere else. Now, they can say that that doesn’t mean that the Father was any less God when He did, …

Nope. Mormon dogma specifically states that heavenly father progressed from a mortal man to a god through adherence to Mormon doctrine.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

See, the problem with your interpretation of events is that it only works if Joseph were trying to escape BEFORE the mob killed his brother and shot his friend full of holes. "

–See the problem with your interpretation is the problem with all mormon foundation. Joe Smith was a con man and a polygamist. He ripped people off with his bogus “seer stones” and “divining rod”. He was lower than a snakeoil salesman at a carnival. He was no “prophet”; not even in the slightest. He was a con man and complete fraud. The Egyptians laugh at his translations to piece together the book of Abraham. LOL.

A good summation is here (similar to many places about Joe Smith).
"Smith was largely regarded at the time as a con man and fraud. His golden plates disappeared, transported to heaven, or so he said. The civilizations recorded within the Book of Mormon have never been substantiated by any historical evidence through either archaeology or corroborated by any credible scholar or historian. Instead, as originally perceived by Smith’s contemporaries, they appear to be little more than a collection of fictional stories put together by Smith, based largely upon other writings and his own creative imagination.

Smith eventually became a virtual dictator of his own city called Nauvoo in Illinois, which was populated by his followers. He also led a large private army as its General. His rule was often tyrannical and he became a feared figure within Illinois. In 1844 after Smith destroyed a Nauvoo newspaper that dared to openly criticize him he was jailed in Carthage. An angry mob broke into the jail and Smith was killed. At the time of his death, his ardent apostles were promoting him as a candidate for president of the United States. "

Quoted from here

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Nope. Mormon dogma specifically states that heavenly father progressed from a mortal man to a god through adherence to Mormon doctrine.

I’m assuming you’re talking about the King Follett Discourse where Smith says something about how it isn’t true that God was always God right? I agree, though current Mormons try to spin that and say what I said above. And of course, the KFD was just “opinion” Funny how things change. Catholics say that limbo is doctrinally correct and people can believe in it if they want to (yes it was never made doctrine). I wonder if the Mormons would say that what Smith said, that the idea that God was God from all eternity is false, is “doctrinally correct”.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Kolob is a star, not a planet; it’s the star nearest the planet where the Mormon godhead (three separate physical entities, two of which are corporeal) physically resides. Mormons do indeed, however, believe the god of this earth (heavenly father) was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood through his own merit. He is one of countless gods in the cosmos. Mormons DO teach that men can become gods, have their own creation and be worshiped and revered by that creation in the same manner in which Mormons treat the god of earth.

All that outlandish gibberish above is why mormons could never be considered “Christian”.

They have every right to their creative charades, but have no right in calling themselves **Christian. **

And if Mitt “the flipper” Romney ever does another “religion” speech, the only hour long speech should be all about Joe Smith, Bring’em, Moroni, the plates and all the bogus dreams which have never and never will be substantiated by any archaeologist or religious theologian of any Christian Church.

Finally, that will end any talk of Romney or any mormon becoming President. Lest we not forget - we live in a Christian Nation.

 

[RC_Matt]

Heavenly Father is not the ‘god of this earth.’ He is the Creator of the universe. The whole thing. “Countless worlds have I created…” and all that.

Dang, I wish someone would actually get it right. I have no problem at all with people who disagree with my beliefs and have problems with my doctrine. It’s just that I spend so much of my time correcting really dumb ideas of what that doctrine actually IS, that there’s no time left to have real debates about real issues.

Sorry, no offense or criticism intended. Whether you call him the god of this earth, or the god of this universe, it’s just a matter of semantics. The point is that Mormonism teaches a multiplicity of gods and that the “local” god progressed to that status, from that of a mortal, through merit. This, in my opinion, is where Mormonism goes farthest beyond the Christian pale.

 

[RC_Matt]

I’m assuming you’re talking about the King Follett Discourse where Smith says something about how it isn’t true that God was always God right?

No, Mormons specifically teach that god progressed from a mortal man to a god through the Doctrine of Eternal Progression. Here’s an explanation from the LDS website:

Exaltation
Chapter 47
31110, Gospel Principles, Unit Ten: Life After Death, 47: Exaltation, 301
When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared.
Jesus taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1).
Discussion
• Have someone tell about our Heavenly Father’s plan for us.
What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.
If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7).
Discussion
• What is exaltation?
Blessings of Exaltation
Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).
Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
   Discussion

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. We must receive the temple endowment.
4. We must be married for time and eternity.
   In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to—
5. Love and worship God.
6. Love our neighbor.
7. Repent of our wrongdoings.
8. Live the law of chastity.
9. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
10. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
11. Speak the truth always.
12. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
13. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
14. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
15. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
16. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
17. Have family and individual prayers every day.
18. Honor our parents.
19. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
20. Study the scriptures.
21. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
    Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.
    Discussion

After We Have Endured to the End
What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).
This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

Discussion
• Describe how you might feel to hear the Savior’s words in Matthew 25:23.
• What must we do to endure to the end?
Additional Scriptures
• D&C 132:3–4, D&C 132:16–26, D&C 132:37 (pertaining to exaltation)
• D&C 131:1–4 (eternal marriage is key to exaltation)
• D&C 76:59–70 (blessings of celestial glory explained)
[picture]
Those who are faithful to the end will be exalted with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

 

[dianaiad]

My goodness you people are hard to keep up with! I’m gone at work for 6 hours and there’s 6 new pages!

In any case, this post is directed to Diana.

I must say that your interpretation of the reasoning behind the contemporary understanding of the Word of Wisdom is rather queer to me. I have never once heard any Mormon describe the Word of Wisdom as a more arbitrary matter of discipline (tantamount to the Catholic abstinence of meat on Fridays). To the contrary, it had always been my experience as a Mormon that the Word of Wisdom inherently carried with it the weight of doctrine. I have never before heard a talk by any LDS at church speaking about the Word of Wisdom as a separatory mechanism, rather always as a significant health code with its central purpose to bring “strength to the navel and marrow to the bones”. We abstained from the prohibited substances not necessarily because we covenanted to do so, but because it was revealed to be wrong.

Your interpretation of the WoW is indeed very unique and I was wondering if you have any quotes by the General Authorities which echo your interpretation?

It is not unique; it is inherent in the fact that a fat mormon (like me) can get a Temple recommend, that if a doctor tells someone that she needs to have a cup of coffee in the morning in order to prevent migraines–and she, drinking coffee, can still get a Temple recommend. The Word of Wisdom is far more comprehensive a bit of advice than the things we have promised to abstain from; there’s the eating meat sparingly part–and then only in cold weather, winter and times of famine–and the concentration on whole grains.

However, the bishop is not going to ask you if you went to McDonalds for a hamburger when the thermometer read 102 degrees.

It is inherent in the fact that Joseph Smith and the early leaders and members of the church DID enjoy a glass of wine from time to time, and did smoke.

It is inherent in the fact that the Word of Wisdom itself states that it is not a commandment, but is, rather, health advice. Not a ritual uncleanliness of the food, in other words, just…hey, do what you want, but this stuff isn’t good for you physically.

It is inherent in the fact that nobody asked about Word of Wisdom obedience until the twentieth century, and wasn’t made a ‘deal breaker’ for a Temple recommend until the 1930’s.

OF COURSE we are told that the items we are asked to abstain from are bad for us. They are. There are very few positive things that alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea have that we can’t get elsewhere—without having to deal with the negatives.

We are also a pragmatic people; the fact that we promised at our baptisms to abstain from these things is a given. We KNOW that. When you talk to Mormons about these things, the emphasis tends to focus, not on the fact that we promised not to, but on why THESE things were chosen rather than some other, arbitrary thing that has no relation to our lives. A ‘twofer,’ sort of thing.

So, we are asked 'why don’t you drink…?" and we say 'because God commanded us not to, and because they are bad for you" …and that gets the sorts of arguments you have seen here. Joseph Smith drank wine. Brigham Young smoked. President Snow thought that the Word of Wisdom meant that all beers should be abolished—except Danish beer.

The whole thing devolves into charges and counter charges of silliness, when the short answer is always the simplest. We don’t do these things because we promised not to. The reason we picked THESE things not to do is because God told us that they weren’t good for us anyway, because the use of these things is ubiquitous, and abstaining from them truly marks us as 'different."

As for me, if I ever left the church and was thereby relieved of my promise to abstain, I still would abstain—because those things are NOT good for us. But that is secondary. I abstain, first and foremost, because God asked us not to, and because I promised.

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry, no offense or criticism intended. Whether you call him the god of this earth, or the god of this universe, it’s just a matter of semantics

Everything is semantics. Words have meanings, and ‘the Creator of the universe" is by no stretch of the imagination the same thing as "the god of this earth,’ semantically, linguistically or logically. I’ve been around both the religious debate world and the linguistic world long enough to understand that letting that one go would result in many misunderstandings and problems down the road.

.

The point is that Mormonism teaches a multiplicity of gods and that the “local” god progressed to that status, from that of a mortal, through merit. This, in my opinion, is where Mormonism goes farthest beyond the Christian pale.

There you go again with the “local” (in quotes, yet…)

It indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the basis of our beliefs. What in the name of all that is logical or wonderful or anything else is “local” about the entire UNIVERSE???

Consider; is our idea that God came from somewhere any more odd than the idea that He didn’t?

 

[dianaiad]

All that outlandish gibberish above is why mormons could never be considered “Christian”.

They have every right to their creative charades, but have no right in calling themselves **Christian. **

And if Mitt “the flipper” Romney ever does another “religion” speech, the only hour long speech should be all about Joe Smith, Bring’em, Moroni, the plates and all the bogus dreams which have never and never will be substantiated by any archaeologist or religious theologian of any Christian Church.

Finally, that will end any talk of Romney or any mormon becoming President. Lest we not forget - we live in a Christian Nation.

You have just become a member of a very rarefied group; people who are on my ignore list. In fact, counting you, that makes…two. In usenet groups, where, by your posts, you are far more used to conversing, such a move is indicated by the following:

plonk

 

[RC_Matt]

Everything is semantics. Words have meanings, and ‘the Creator of the universe" is by no stretch of the imagination the same thing as "the god of this earth,’ semantically, linguistically or logically. I’ve been around both the religious debate world and the linguistic world long enough to understand that letting that one go would result in many misunderstandings and problems down the road.

.

There you go again with the “local” (in quotes, yet…)

It indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the basis of our beliefs. What in the name of all that is logical or wonderful or anything else is “local” about the entire UNIVERSE???

Consider; is our idea that God came from somewhere any more odd than the idea that He didn’t?

The point is that the God worshipped by Christians (and Jews and Moslems) is the ONE and ONLY God, he was, is, and always will be. He is not an exalted man. He is not a “local” god in the context that there were gods before him, with him or after him. He was not appointed a god by another god. He does not have his own god, he did not earn godhood. This is the fundamental difference between Mormon and Abrahamic/Christian theology; they are incongruent, mutually exclusive.

Fully understanding the nature of God is beyond our comprehension; He created us, we did not create Him.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Diana,

The spewing all that sillyness would be best performed by a stand-up comic.

**In terms of reality, here are a couple of main facts to consider: **

• **There is one God; Father allmighty; creator of Heaven & Earth
• God was never a mortal man who suddenly turned into a God
• God came to earth 2,000 years ago as his only begotten son (part of the Trinity)
• Man cannot become a God
• Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary (not physical relations as mormons foolishly have stated).
• Joe Smith was never a ‘prophet’, except in his own mind. Neither was Brig Young or any of his successors. They all should be stand-up comics.
  **

Now please delve in to this site. It is brimming with factual displays.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is not exactly silly. Full participation can occur without going to the temple. Going to the temple is a totally separate event. Most activities occur in the mormon meeting houses. The temple is important but it is separated from all the other meetings and activities mormons participate in. What happens during the temple ordinances is never discussed in mormon meetings.

whyme, "most activities, “separate event”, does not equal full participation. Perhaps it is enough for you but it is not what the mormon church teaches as full participation.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes. They will all have their work done, though. They need it…but they don’t need it to experience everything that the church can offer them in this life.

Which, if they want full participation in the mormon idea of afterlife, the dead soul had better accept this proxy work. Otherwise, they will be denied full participation. “Full blessings of the Atonement” ring a bell?

 

[dianaiad]

The point is that the God worshipped by Christians (and Jews and Moslems) is the ONE and ONLY God, he was, is, and always will be. He is not an exalted man. He is not a “local” god in the context that there were gods before him, with him or after him. He was not appointed a god by another god. He does not have his own god, he did not earn godhood. This is the fundamental difference between Mormon and Abrahamic/Christian theology; they are incongruent, mutually exclusive.

Fully understanding the nature of God is beyond our comprehension; He created us, we did not create Him.

I don’t think you get the fundamental difference even yet.

He is not an ‘exalted man’
We are ‘gods in embryo.’

We do not believe that He is lesser…or that He is simply one God of many; or that we can readily comprehend Him, or that we created Him. He is, literally, our Father. . There are no other gods before or after Him. We are His children.

Not playthings.
Not pots.
or pets.
Not things created in passing for amusement.

We believe that we are His children. It is not that we have made Him lesser, but that by realizing our true relationship to our Father in Heaven, we are greater; our potential is vast.

 

[RC_Matt]

I don’t think you get the fundamental difference even yet.

He is not an ‘exalted man’
We are ‘gods in embryo.’

We do not believe that He is lesser…or that He is simply one God of many; or that we can readily comprehend Him, or that we created Him. He is, literally, our Father. . There are no other gods before or after Him. We are His children.

Not playthings.
Not pots.
or pets.
Not things created in passing for amusement.

We believe that we are His children. It is not that we have made Him lesser, but that by realizing our true relationship to our Father in Heaven, we are greater; our potential is vast.

The local Mormon god (no disrespect intended - I have to use that term for lack of an alternative) is NOT the god of ALL “creation.” He is the god of HIS creation; but he, in turn, was the spirit child of HIS “local” god (i.e., he is the creation of another god). He progressed to godhood by faithfully adhering to Mormon doctrine in his own temporal world. The following is from the LDS website (Chapter 47, Gospel Principles):

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).”

PGP, BoA, additionally makes the multiplicity of gods quite clear. This is what places Mormonism in a category all by itself; similar to Buddhism or Hinduism. That’s not a criticism; some of the most stalwart followers of Christ’s teachings I know are Buddhists and they are VERY much “saved.”

 

[why_me]

whyme, "most activities, “separate event”, does not equal full participation. Perhaps it is enough for you but it is not what the mormon church teaches as full participation.

The temple is the temple. In the good old days when I was a young adult people did not go to the temple until their marriage or if they went on a mission. And those that didn’t go the temple had no problem with participation. Participation takes place in the meeting houses of the lds church and not in the temple. And there were mormons who did not want to make a commitment to go the temple. It was no big deal.

 

[dianaiad]

The local Mormon god (no disrespect intended - I have to use that term for lack of an alternative) is NOT the god of ALL “creation.” He is the god of HIS creation; but he, in turn, was the spirit child of HIS “local” god (i.e., he is the creation of another god). He progressed to godhood by faithfully adhering to Mormon doctrine in his own temporal world. The following is from the LDS website (Chapter 47, Gospel Principles):

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).”

PGP, BoA, additionally makes the multiplicity of gods quite clear. This is what places Mormonism in a category all by itself; similar to Buddhism or Hinduism. That’s not a criticism; some of the most stalwart followers of Christ’s teachings I know are Buddhists and they are VERY much “saved.”

Ok…but you need to find another word than ‘local,’ because most people do not equate ‘local’ with ‘universe,’

The thing is, save for His origin, we believe no differently about our Father in Heaven than any other Christian; He created the universe. The whole thing. All the stars. All the planets and all living things that may dwell upon them. If there are any other gods, we don’t know who they would be, or where they are, or indeed anything about them. They do not concern us; we cannot access them even to know if they actually do exist.

Therefore, there really is no God before our Father in Heaven for us. None.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

The temple is the temple. In the good old days when I was a young adult people did not go to the temple until their marriage or if they went on a mission. And those that didn’t go the temple had no problem with participation. Participation takes place in the meeting houses of the lds church and not in the temple. And there were mormons who did not want to make a commitment to go the temple. It was no big deal.

And what happens to Mormons that don’t go to the temple in this life? Does the same thing happen to them after death as those that did go? If not, they were not fully participating in the religion in this life, and will have to accept those ordinances in the afterlife. That is what we’re talking about. Without the temple, you are not fully participating in what the religion offers relative to full salvation, and that has been emphasized by various authorities encouraging people to go to temple. Sure, you’re fully participating in the ward, but Mormonism doesn’t end at the ward. You can’t do everything relative to your exaltation in the ward.