Conflicted Mormon

[StLawrenceFan]

You have just become a member of a very rarefied group; people who are on my ignore list. In fact, counting you, that makes…two. In usenet groups, where, by your posts, you are far more used to conversing, such a move is indicated by the following:

plonk

Alas, no surprise.

The truth is difficult to take, for some.

And since you’re still reading my postings, but the twang of truth is nagging at you, please do review this entire site- you have all day tomorrow to read the truth -
All the truth of Joe Smith and his dreams

 

[RC_Matt]

Ok…but you need to find another word than ‘local,’ because most people do not equate ‘local’ with ‘universe,’

The thing is, save for His origin, we believe no differently about our Father in Heaven than any other Christian; He created the universe. The whole thing. All the stars. All the planets and all living things that may dwell upon them. If there are any other gods, we don’t know who they would be, or where they are, or indeed anything about them. They do not concern us; we cannot access them even to know if they actually do exist. .

Of course you know (believe) other gods exist, that is CORE Mormon dogma and therein is the fundamental difference between the cosmology of Abrahamic Faiths (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) and that of Mormonism. The former believe in ONE creation; there is only ONE God, the omnipotent God of the ONE creation. On the other hand, the Mormon god is only the god of HIS particular creation; the god of his locality, his universe or whatever you wish to call it. His creation is simply a subsequent subset of another creation, which is by definition ruled by a different god. Mormon dogma explicitly defines heavenly father as being an exalted man; he was a mortal man in his own physical world, subject to his own god, and progressed to godhood through merit. Similarly, Mormonism teaches that any man, by faithfully adhering to Mormon doctrine, can become the god of HIS own creation; exactly like heavenly father.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Hey, I think I now know where Kolob is…to get there, all you do is put on magical rocketized underwear and pedal down through the Zarcon Galaxy. It’s the 3rd Star on the left. Can’t miss it!

http://www.orbit.zkm.de/files/MormonMoonMissionaries.jpg

 

[PaulDupre]

I agree. You aren’t fully participating in the religion if you aren’t doing those ordinances you need to become gods, full salvation.

Brigham Young taught that “salvation without exaltation is damnation”.

That is still taught today, according to my LDS siblings.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Brigham Young taught that “salvation without exaltation is damnation”.

That is still taught today, according to my LDS siblings.

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/damnation.html

"Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19). In this context, damnation does not necessarily refer to eternal suffering in hell with the devil, for loss of blessings is in itself a type of hell and damnation. "

If you didn’t go to the temple in this life, you don’t get to be exalted in the next, therefore you didn’t fully participate in all the religion has to offer, and you’ll have to participate in the next life.

 

[PaulDupre]

It is extremely important. However, some families have to save for years in order to be able to go. True, we have more and more Temples going up all over the world, and it isn’t anywhere near as difficult as it sometimes used to be, but still…

That is extremely disingenuous. The vast majority of un-endowed LDS live just a short drive from a temple. Most of them (like Mormons in general) live in the Western U.S.

 

[PaulDupre]

I don’t think you get the fundamental difference even yet.

He is not an ‘exalted man’

No? Then your disagreement is not with us, but with the LDS prophets and apostles:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man."

—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man

• Joseph Smith, The King Follett Discourse

‘It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God,’ the inspired word continues, ‘and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.’ The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

Emphasis mine.

Here we have an example of why it is so difficult to discuss with Mormons: they keep misrepresenting (or denying) their church’s teachings. Like trying to nail jello to a wall.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Finally, that will end any talk of Romney or any mormon becoming President. Lest we not forget - we live in a Christian Nation.

So, you wouldn’t lower yourself to voting for, say, someone of the hebraic persuasion, for example? How do you respond to those that say that we live in a Protestant Nation, by the way?

I’m just sayin’.

Okay, re-railing: if I were a “questioning Mormon” reading this thread, I’d probably think that Catholicism was populated by a bunch of narrow-minded ill-informed mean-spirited bigots. Seriously, people, let’s put on our best faces, shall we? Is it really Christlike to make juvenile puns on people’s names and perfom the internet equivalent of sticking our fingers in our ears and tongues out of our mouths?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

We are ‘gods in embryo.’
…]
We believe that we are His children. It is not that we have made Him lesser, but that by realizing our true relationship to our Father in Heaven, we are greater; our potential is vast.

So, could you compare and contrast the concept of “gods in embryo” with the concept in Eastern Christianity known as “theosis”?

 

[StLawrenceFan]

That is extremely disingenuous. The vast majority of un-endowed LDS live just a short drive from a temple. Most of them (like Mormons in general) live in the Western U.S.

Yep. Fads are short-lived.

Joe Smith was a flash-in-the-pan who SOMEHOW (“sucker born every minute” ~ PT Barnum) was put in semi-momentum by others who wanted to keep the money flow going. Whatya call it? Tithing?

Any LDS “Temple” (cough) needs to check their lease. Good space for a bulk-rate store or used clothing store. Highest and best use is important in commercial venues.

Don’t get me wrong - mormons have every right in the U.S. to practice their religion. But the are not Christian. So they need to come up with a new marketing plan.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

So, you wouldn’t lower yourself to voting for, say, someone of the hebraic persuasion, for example?

–What is that? Do you mean of the Jewish persuasion? No problem. Jews are rock solid with their biblical accounts. They don’t recognize Jesus as the"savior" (except for ‘Jews for Jesus’ folk). but Jesus was born a Jew and their religion is completely backed by historic means.

How do you respond to those that say that we live in a Protestant Nation, by the way?

–Protestants are Christians. They came along very late, but they are still Christian because of their adherence to Christian Doctrine. I don’t understand why they won’t join the True Church, and they came along in just the 1500’s, but they are still Christian.

Okay, re-railing: if I were a “questioning Mormon” reading this thread, I’d probably think that Catholicism was populated by a bunch of narrow-minded ill-informed mean-spirited bigots.

—And you would be quite misguided, and would remain fully off-course. I’ll pray for you.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

So, could you compare and contrast the concept of “gods in embryo” with the concept in Eastern Christianity known as “theosis”?

I think the main place to start with that is Mormons believe that humans are literally the spirit children of the Father (and the Heavenly Mother). Those that believe in theosis do not believe this. Mormons believe that we are ontologically the same as the Father, and that we lived in a “pre-mortal existence” with the Father, prior to birth. In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, we are not gods by nature, and only God is eternal. We become by grace what God is by nature.

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

–Protestants are Christians. They came along very late, but they are still Christian because of their adherence to Christian Doctrine. I don’t understand why they won’t join the True Church, and they came along in just the 1500’s, but they are still Christian.

I think it’s more precise to say that according to the Catholic Church, Protestants are Christians because they believe in the same God as us (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Three separate Persons, one in purpose, will, intent, AND consubstantial). They don’t adhere to all of Christian doctrine sadly, otherwise they’d be Catholic. And of course some people define “Christian” differently, such as one that believes in and worships Jesus, which is how the Mormons do it, and why they get all annoyed when we say they aren’t Christian. Everyone has a different definition of “Christian”.

 

[why_me]

Yep. Fads are short-lived.

Joe Smith was a flash-in-the-pan who SOMEHOW (“sucker born every minute” ~ PT Barnum) was put in semi-momentum by others who wanted to keep the money flow going. Whatya call it? Tithing?

Any LDS “Temple” (cough) needs to check their lease. Good space for a bulk-rate store or used clothing store. Highest and best use is important in commercial venues.

Don’t get me wrong - mormons have every right in the U.S. to practice their religion. But the are not Christian. So they need to come up with a new marketing plan.

And if a poster would say the same about a catholic church, would you agree? All catholic churches need to check their lease from time to time would you agree? And what if I were a die hard protestant who would consider the catholic church not christian because of how the faith is practiced, would you agree?

Your post was against forum rules because it shows disrespect for another faith. Are you sure you are catholic? A devout catholic would not post such a post.

 

[dianaiad]

That is extremely disingenuous. The vast majority of un-endowed LDS live just a short drive from a temple. Most of them (like Mormons in general) live in the Western U.S.

Paul.

More than half of all the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints live outside the borders of the United States of America.

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul.

More than half of all the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints live outside the borders of the United States of America.

The “members” counted on the phoney LDS membership roles, not those who self-identify as LDS.

In foreign missions, most convert baptisms go inactive within a few weeks, or right after their missionary gets transferred out. Most foreign missions have a convert retention rate of 5% to 11%.

When I was on my mission in Taiwan (1977-1979), we spent lots of time looking up inactive members. Most were teen girls at the time they were baptized. Very few could recall the name of the church they were baptized into, but each had a picture of “her American” who, at the time, she believed would marry her and whisk her off to America. The Taiwan Taipei mission had a 5% convert retention rate.

I served in one branch in Taiwan that had 305 members on the roles, but they were all inactive, including the branch president and his counselors. Literally no one showed up for sacrament meeting on Sunday. When we called on the branch president, he sent his wife to the door to tell us to go away.

There are really only about 4,5 million people world-wide who self-identify as LDS. Most of those still live in the Western U.S.

BTW, after my one semester at BYU I worked in the Ore-Ida plant in Burley, Idaho. The ward there had a 13% activity rate. I home-taught 11 individuals and families; they were all inactive.

13 million indeed…

 

[PaulDupre]

BTW, in that ward in Burley, ID, I completed my home teaching every month that I was there. I was the only one in the ward who did.

13 million indeed…

 

[why_me]

The “members” counted on the phoney LDS membership roles, not those who self-identify as LDS.

13 million indeed…

It would be interesting to know just where the catholic church gets its membership numbers. I am sure that there are quite many penecostals who are still counted as catholic by the catholic church. In Latin America alone most penecostals were once catholics who converted to penecostalism. And if these people don’t sign off from being members of the catholic church, they are still counted as catholic.

Any comments? Can we say that the catholic church as phoney membership roles? And of course, people are changing their faith all the time. Many protestants change their affiliation too without notifying their former church. They just no longer attend their former church. So, who has perfect membership roles?

Please let me know what church has exact membership roles.

 

[why_me]

BTW, in that ward in Burley, ID, I completed my home teaching every month that I was there. I was the only one in the ward who did.

13 million indeed…

You were a good shepherd for sure. But now you are filled with hate. What happened?

 

[dianaiad]

Brigham Young taught that “salvation without exaltation is damnation”.

That is still taught today, according to my LDS siblings.

Only relatively, sir.

The ‘damnation’ Young spoke of involved a place that, quite frankly, sounds a great deal like the heaven others tell me about.

Even the place where murderers and liars go is a better place than here…what makes it hell is the company.