Confliction over Infant Baptism

[HoneyBea]

I have a friend who was raised Catholic and had a troubled upbringing as well as suffered abuse. She hasn’t told me too much, but I do know she holds hostility against Catholicism due to her fathers abuse. I think she is confused, because she makes comments that she wants to come to church with me and she told me " I think God put you in my life so I could hear your testimony-- I feel as if God is calling me home". However, she will go to a mega church and come back all emotional and happy and then the feelings fade and she feels down again. So, I’m sensing its not fulfilling and she is not being spiritually fed. She lost her mother a few years back and she speaks fondly of her mother and her mothers strong devotion to her faith. The other night we were sitting out side drinking wine and we started discussing baptism with another friend and she blurted out " I dont believe that ****! I’m not baptizing my daughter she can choose for herself when she is old enough and shes just a kid shes not going to hell!" She was tipsy and I noticed her anger towards Catholicism for the first time. There are definitely issues there. However, she is clearly confused and does not understand Catholicism and has had her head filled with other things. I have been careful not to be too pushy and Ive been praying for her and asking God to use me to show her his love etc. Anyways, yesterday she texted me, and told me she wants to go to mass with me and she wants to have her daughter who is almost 2 baptized. I told her that was wonderful and I would help her. The problem is I’m not really sure to help her and I am afraid she will change her mind. I think right now all her choices are based on emotions and not understanding. How can I help her understand why we baptize? Please dont direct me to links, as I have been reading up on this the past few days. I understand infant baptism, but I dont want to send her reading material-- I want to be able to discuss it with her and answer her questions. My issue is I am not sure what words to use so that she can understand in simple easy terms that will be compelling yet adequate enough that she has a full understanding. I dont want her to feel manipulated or mislead. I want her to make this decision on her own with a full understanding.

 

[Incomplete]

Is she asking for help in understanding? It seems like her text says she is ready to have her daughter baptized. Either way, to help her would be to direct her towards a good priest. It is the priest who will be baptizing her baby, anyway, and he is the one who can choose the right words.

My daughter had an agnostic friend. My daughter’s friendship gave him the trust he needed to ask questions…and I directed him to a very good priest, and a couple of years later he was received into the Church and is now ardently Catholic. I would suggest you do the same. You have already done a lot right by just caring for her. Keep doing that.

 

[HoneyBea]

Is she asking for help in understanding? It seems like her text says she is ready to have her daughter baptized. Either way, to help her would be to direct her towards a good priest. It is the priest who will be baptizing her baby, anyway, and he is the one who can choose the right words.

My daughter had an agnostic friend. My daughter’s friendship gave him the trust he needed to ask questions…and I directed him to a very good priest, and a couple of years later he was received into the Church and is now ardently Catholic. I would suggest you do the same. You have already done a lot right by just caring for her. Keep doing that.

She is asking but as I explained she is confused and keeps going back and forth and if I tell her to go speak to a priest you might as well consider the subject dead. Its never going to happen. Go speak to a priest is not always good advice for everyone. She is reaching out to me to help her understand and make up her mind. I dont want to screw this up. Thank you for your reply though- I do appreciate it : )

 

[robwar]

Considering that her first comments were made while drinking, I wouldn’t put too much stock in them. Invite her to Mass and leave the rest up to God. Thie issue and problem are between her and God not you. Just have an open door with her, invite her when able and don’t worry about the rest.

 

[HoneyBea]

Ok, perhaps I should clarify. This is not the first time she has made the comments she has been adamant about her disdain for the church, but on occasion she makes comments she wants to go to mass with me and when I invite her she doesn’t come. The drunk comment was the most passionate Ive seen her in expressing in her disdain. I mentioned it only because it made me aware of how deep her pain is. So, its going to take much more than telling her to go to to church and talk to a priest. It appears she wants to be convinced. I can invite her and tell her to go to see a priest, but if she decline than I should just shut up and drop it? I really need some better advice other than telling her to go see a priest and go to church. I cant count how many times I was told the same thing and it went in one ear and out the other. If this is what the church considers “evangelizing” then we are in bad shape!

 

[FaustinaJulia]

Have you thought of making an offer to actually take her to church that day? Perhaps come up with some after mass excursion that you all could go on together and it’d be a waste of gas to go in two cars (am not sure what size families either of you have or if you have a single vehicle which would hold all or not). It’s far easier to be a no-show then it is to make someone else waste their time, gas etc coming to get them and then not go with them. Ugh almost 5:30am here words are not as fluent. I hope what I said made sense. I have a feeling that if you can just get her into a church that the Holy Spirit will handle the rest. I know that was the case for me

 

[Cathoholic]

HoneyBea. Your friend has been influenced by the Anabaptist mindset.

She has been (wrongly) taught that Acts 2:38 is a catechesis for Baptismal instruction. This is a partial truth (it is among other things, a catechetical instruction for the hearers but not for every single person). St. Peter is preaching the Gospel to these men in Acts 2. That’s all.

ACTS 2:38 38 And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ask her the question:

Concerning Acts St. Peter here in Acts 2:38; is St. Peter. . . .

A. Preaching the Gospel to his ADULT hearers at the time?
B. Giving COMPLETE Catechetical Instruction on ELIGIBILITY for Baptism here?
C. Both?
D. Neither (please give alternative answer if neither)?

She will say “B” or “C”.

Then take her back to Acts 2:5 and tell her Acts specifically states St. Peter was talking to “men”.

ACTS 2:5 5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

So if “B” (or “C”) is true, does this mean “women” cannot be baptized too? (Remember the context of Acts 2:38 includes Acts 2:5 . . . “MEN”).

She will know it doesn’t mean that (but by her own PRINCIPLES HERE it should).

This will begin to raise questions in her mind. She will bring up other verses such as “RISE” and be baptized calling on his name. She will ask you: "How can a baby “rise”?

She will use a verse that says: “BELIEVE and be baptized”. Then she will say, “How can a baby ‘believe’?”

You will say these verses too just point to the Apostolic preaching (to whom they were being preached to). That’s all. It is not a dissertation on who should NOT be Baptized.

If it were, would it mean that if an adult lost their legs they should NOT be Baptized? Why not?

Because he/she cannot “RISE” and be Baptized.

She will say: “You don’t understand HoneyBea. This “RISE” just means for the hearers. It is not a blanket statement about who cannot be Baptized.”

And you will say: “Bingo. I agree. But this same principle ALSO applies to infants.”

Then you will say likewise:

2nd THESSALONIANS 3:4, 10 4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things which we command. . . . . 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command:** If any one will not work, let him not eat**.

You will say: “Does this verse mean we should not feed our babies? After all, they “will not work”?”

She will say: “No! Of course it doesn’t mean that.”

And you will say: “I agree. And using the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLE, you can Baptize babies.”

On the principle that this verse pertains to a specific group of people. That’s all you can say about it. You have to go to other verses if you want MORE information such as the very next verse.

ACTS 2:38-39a 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children . . .

The Anabaptist mind will say: “It does apply to our children, but NOT until they are older!”

And you will reply: “Where does it state THAT?”

Of course it does NOT state that.

When you get that far, readers here will be happy to go over other things you can say here too I’m sure. I will hang around here for a few days too.

This is brief. And it only includes you keeping two and a half specific verses in mind (Acts 2:5 and 2:38-39a). The 2nd Thessalonians verse you can just paraphrase and have her look it up.

So you have 2 1/2 verses, a test question and a principle to memorize.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[PaulfromIowa]

You are closer to this woman than we are, obviously, but I don’t think that infant baptism, per se, is the issue. I would guess that she associates her unhappy childhood with Catholicism and thus has anger issues with Catholicism. Irrational, but not uncommon.

She needs to see the Church through adult eyes and not through her childhood memory. Perhaps some general apologetics for converts, like “Rome, Sweet Home.”

 

[HoneyBea]

HoneyBea. Your friend has been influenced by the Anabaptist mindset.

She has been (wrongly) taught that Acts 2:38 is a catechesis for Baptismal instruction. This is a partial truth (it is among other things, a catechetical instruction for the hearers but not for every single person). St. Peter is preaching the Gospel to these men in Acts 2. That’s all.

ACTS 2:38 38 And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ask her the question:

Concerning Acts St. Peter here in Acts 2:38; is St. Peter. . . .

A. Preaching the Gospel to his ADULT hearers at the time?
B. Giving COMPLETE Catechetical Instruction on ELIGIBILITY for Baptism here?
C. Both?
D. Neither (please give alternative answer if neither)?

She will say “B” or “C”.

Then take her back to Acts 2:5 and tell her Acts specifically states St. Peter was talking to “men”.

ACTS 2:5 5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

So if “B” (or “C”) is true, does this mean “women” cannot be baptized too? (Remember the context of Acts 2:38 includes Acts 2:5 . . . “MEN”).

She will know it doesn’t mean that (but by her own PRINCIPLES HERE it should).

This will begin to raise questions in her mind. She will bring up other verses such as “RISE” and be baptized calling on his name. She will ask you: "How can a baby “rise”?

She will use a verse that says: “BELIEVE and be baptized”. Then she will say, “How can a baby ‘believe’?”

You will say these verses too just point to the Apostolic preaching (to whom they were being preached to). That’s all. It is not a dissertation on who should NOT be Baptized.

If it were, would it mean that if an adult lost their legs they should NOT be Baptized? Why not?

Because he/she cannot “RISE” and be Baptized.

She will say: “You don’t understand HoneyBea. This “RISE” just means for the hearers. It is not a blanket statement about who cannot be Baptized.”

And you will say: “Bingo. I agree. But this same principle ALSO applies to infants.”

Then you will say likewise:

2nd THESSALONIANS 3:4, 10 4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things which we command. . . . . 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command:** If any one** will not work, let him not eat.

You will say: “Does this verse mean we should not feed our babies? After all, they “will not work”?”

She will say: “No! Of course it doesn’t mean that.”

And you will say: “I agree. And using the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLE, you can Baptize babies.”

On the principle that this verse pertains to a specific group of people. That’s all you can say about it. You have to go to other verses if you want MORE information such as the very next verse.

ACTS 2:38-39a 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children . . .

The Anabaptist mind will say: “It does apply to our children, but NOT until they are older!”

And you will reply: “Where does it state THAT?”

Of course it does NOT state that.

When you get that far, readers here will be happy to go over other things you can say here too I’m sure. I will hang around here for a few days too.

This is brief. And it only includes you keeping two and a half specific verses in mind (Acts 2:5 and 2:38-39a). The 2nd Thessalonians verse you can just paraphrase and have her look it up.

So you have 2 1/2 verses, a test question and a principle to memorize.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

This is much help thank you! This is what I needed.

You are closer to this woman than we are, obviously, but I don’t think that infant baptism, per se, is the issue. I would guess that she associates her unhappy childhood with Catholicism and thus has anger issues with Catholicism. Irrational, but not uncommon.

She needs to see the Church through adult eyes and not through her childhood memory. Perhaps some general apologetics for converts, like “Rome, Sweet Home.”

Yes you are spot on, Ive know this since the first day I met her,and I even tell her this very frankly. That she needs to find and learn about faith on her own terms now, but I want to use her interest in wanting to baptize her daughter as a way to get through to her. Her son was baptized in the Catholic Church and I think her mother had a lot to do with that but she is now gone.

Have you thought of making an offer to actually take her to church that day? Perhaps come up with some after mass excursion that you all could go on together and it’d be a waste of gas to go in two cars (am not sure what size families either of you have or if you have a single vehicle which would hold all or not). It’s far easier to be a no-show then it is to make someone else waste their time, gas etc coming to get them and then not go with them. Ugh almost 5:30am here words are not as fluent. I hope what I said made sense. I have a feeling that if you can just get her into a church that the Holy Spirit will handle the rest. I know that was the case for me

Yes, I have done this and I will keep trying : )

 

[paulrxp]

I have a friend who was raised Catholic and had a troubled upbringing as well as suffered abuse. She hasn’t told me too much, but I do know she holds hostility against Catholicism due to her fathers abuse.

She is asking but as I explained she is confused and keeps going back and forth and if **I tell her to go speak to a priest you might as well consider the subject dead. Its never going to happen. **Go speak to a priest is not always good advice for everyone. She is reaching out to me to help her understand and make up her mind. I dont want to screw this up. Thank you for your reply though- I do appreciate it : )

Just going by what you stated here, this isn’t just based on what the faith teaches and/or its beliefs. If the problems with embracing the Catholic faith were due to the abusive actions of her Father, maybe the compassionate voice of another Father, the priest is really the only way you’re going to turn this thing around. The emotional damage is still lingering, there’s no question about that, all trust that was lost has to be earned over time.

A priest will know full well the importance of penance, he’ll know and understand what she may have gone through, he hears this all the time in confession. He will not judge her, nor preach to her, but be understanding of the sinful treatment she endured, by someone she should have been able to trust.

Faith is dependent on trust, they almost always have to coexist. I’m not sure if reentering the Church would enrich her life if she doesn’t heal from the trust she’s lost from it. It’s almost like saying “Yes I forgive you” but deep down you still hold some bad feeling in your own conscience. Just like when we confess our sins, forgiveness has to be honest also, we have to have a clear mind(not a tipsy induced one )

For you to care about her well being is an admirable thing. Do not look at this situation like it all falls on your shoulders. You may be just 1 of many instruments God will use to guide her to his truth and light.

 

[HoneyBea]

Just going by what you stated here, this isn’t just based on what the faith teaches and/or its beliefs. If the problems with embracing the Catholic faith were due to the abusive actions of her Father, maybe the compassionate voice of another Father, the priest is really the only way you’re going to turn this thing around. The emotional damage is still lingering, there’s no question about that, all trust that was lost has to be earned over time.

A priest will know full well the importance of penance, he’ll know and understand what she may have gone through, he hears this all the time in confession. He will not judge her, nor preach to her, but be understanding of the sinful treatment she endured, by someone she should have been able to trust.

Faith is dependent on trust, they almost always have to coexist. I’m not sure if reentering the Church would enrich her life if she doesn’t heal from the trust she’s lost from it. It’s almost like saying “Yes I forgive you” but deep down you still hold some bad feeling in your own conscience. Just like when we confess our sins, forgiveness has to be honest also, we have to have a clear mind(not a tipsy induced one )

For you to care about her well being is an admirable thing. Do not look at this situation like it all falls on your shoulders. You may be just 1 of many instruments God will use to guide her to his truth and light.

I think the suggestion of her speaking to a priest is an excellent one. I didn’t mean to imply it wasn’t, but she is not ready to do that yet. I definitely think it is something that will help her and I hope she will be ready soon. This has been a slow process and I have been very hands off because I did not want to seem pushy and scare her away. The way she is reaching out to me is a delicate matter and I am her good friend and I can tell she is just not there yet but I will be suggesting it regardless. We are talkers and I feel that’s what she needs right now is a lot more talking. The suggestions are good but they are too much too soon.

Also, I think this mostly stems from her misconceptions of the church and of course her father who was a “strict catholic” as well as a raging racist and bigot. However she speaks lovingly of her mother and her mothers faith so there is that testimony and admiration there too, which is hopeful.
And thank you for your kind words I needed that and to remember that God is doing all the work not me. What a relief! God is good : )

 

[jmeyer3131]

She is asking but as I explained she is confused and keeps going back and forth and if I tell her to go speak to a priest you might as well consider the subject dead. Its never going to happen. Go speak to a priest is not always good advice for everyone. She is reaching out to me to help her understand and make up her mind. I dont want to screw this up. Thank you for your reply though- I do appreciate it : )

I guess I misread, then. At the end of the statement you had stated that she told you she wanted baptism for her daughter. At that point it sounded as though she had made that decision, so she was going to need a priest anyway. And I was rather unclear, too…I didn’t mean to just tell her to speak to a priest, but to facilitate that happening. I should have said that. The person I was mentioning before, I actually ended up bringing him to a class my priest was teaching, but first I had suggested Mass, so he could decide if he was comfortable with the priest at all. My daughter’s friend decided he’d rather go to the class, so that is what we did. (In my case, the particular priest had changed my life, and when I was able to relay that to my daughter’s friend, he was very interested in meeting the priest.)

I think your slow, hands-off approach has not been a bad one. In that way you have kept the door open and have built up trust. My daughter has another friend who started out atheist and very anti-Catholic. Through a process of getting to know her and trust her, he is planning to be received into the Church Easter Vigil 2014, but it’s been 4 or 5 years. Like you, I like seeing things move faster, but if it is moving forward, that is a very good thing.

But none of that applies if she is not willing to go to Mass and hasn’t made up her mind yet about baptism.

I have found that often people don’t respond to persuasive arguments. They are more likely to respond out of trust. She does seem to have trust in you, and that’s a great start. I’ll leave the apologetics part to people who are much better at at than I am.

 

[St_Francis]

I think you have been doing just the right thing, just being there and accepting her ups and downs. This is giving her a chance to see a Catholic in action who is not at all like her father.

I would reassure her that you are always happy to take her to Mass whenever she wants to go.

As to the baptism issue… don’t know if this will work, but I always thought the “I’ll let them chose when they are older” argument was silly. We don’t say, I will let my child chose what language she wants to use when she is older, do we? No, we decide that for them, and then they have the “habit” of using language, and when they are older, they can learn other languages.

In the same way, growing up with the habits of faith is good: it allows the child to choose between doing or not doing if they have the option of doing both. Raising children with no knowledge and no practice in the habits of faith means they don’t really have that as an option, do they?

Also, it may be that you will need to explain to her that the Church does not like to baptize babies if it is uncertain that the child will be *raised *Catholic. They have been getting stricter about this. So it may be that the priest would encourage her to delay baptizing her child until she herself has decided about whether or not to return to the Church and demonstrated some staying power.

 

[St_Francis]

Oops, I forgot a point! You might try giving her Catholic answers. For example, when she feels down after the emotional high of an enthusiastic Protestant service, if she mentions it, you might say something about the Catholic way of handling this (for myself, I’d point out that the feelings mostly come from the experience of singing and letting loose a bit, and they disappear, but the Catholic way is to focus on Christ rather than the activities, etc.) But don’t drag religion into the conversation, let it come up naturally.