Confronted by Baptist Friends

[steve_b]

Right, it wasn’t Luther who removed them – I concede that I was factually wrong on that one.

Actually Alex, Luther did remove 7 OT books from scripture. By him reclassifying canonical books to apocrypha (not scripture) status, is in fact removing books from scripture by definition.
A:

But my point still stands that the vast majority of protestants don’t include the deutorocanonicals. Is there a reason for this? Who decided this? By what authority did they decide?

Catholics call those 7 books deuterocanonical, as in scripture.

Protestants call those 7 books apocryphal, as in not scripture, and you’re right, those books don’t even appear in a majority of Protestant bibles today.

Luther is the reason for that. He had no authority to do what he did.

Luther claims “Jews” didn’t include those 7 books in their list of books? Really? Which Jews is Luther speaking of?

The Jews who accepted Jesus and the NT, accepted those 7 books as scripture ( in the Septuagint)… OTOH, the Jews who didn’t accept Jesus and the NT, rejected those 7 books. So what does that say about THEM, and in extension what does it say about Luther the heretic and all who followed him?

 

[jlhargus]

Hi all,

So a few weeks ago I told some friends of mine who are leaders in the Baptist church that I was thinking about becoming Catholic. They invited me over for dinner. Now remember, these are people that I highly respect. They went on about how there’s a difference between petra and petros in Matthew 16 and how Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, not a priest. They also said that Jesus is the high priest, not a priest in the church. They also said that the catholic church would kill people if they didn’t agree with their ways, like they would kill protestants in Europe in the 1500’s. This guy has his Doctorate in Divinity from a Baptist Seminary so I was outwitted. Anyways, I have been attending their church for the past week but I constantly feel something calling me back to the Catholic Faith. Maybe it is the holy spirit? I don’t know.

I feel so guilty. I told the deacon at a local Catholic church that I would attend RCIA soon but I never showed up. I feel like I was duped and brainwashed. Do you think the Holy Spirit calls some people to be Catholic? I mean everything I read here on Catholic answers makes sense to me…and it has always bothered me that protestants removed books from the bible. Anyways, just thought I could rant here and maybe get different opinions. I love you all. Peace.

Alex I would be happy to debate with your Baptist friends on CAF or by email on any Catholic issue. Or on Baptist issues such as OSAS, Faith alone, Bible alone all of which are not found in scripture anywhere.

 

[Belshazzar]

Hi all,

So a few weeks ago I told some friends of mine who are leaders in the Baptist church that I was thinking about becoming Catholic. They invited me over for dinner. Now remember, these are people that I highly respect. They went on about how there’s a difference between petra and petros in Matthew 16 and how Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, not a priest. They also said that Jesus is the high priest, not a priest in the church. They also said that the catholic church would kill people if they didn’t agree with their ways, like they would kill protestants in Europe in the 1500’s. This guy has his Doctorate in Divinity from a Baptist Seminary so I was outwitted. Anyways, I have been attending their church for the past week but I constantly feel something calling me back to the Catholic Faith. Maybe it is the holy spirit? I don’t know.

I feel so guilty. I told the deacon at a local Catholic church that I would attend RCIA soon but I never showed up. I feel like I was duped and brainwashed. Do you think the Holy Spirit calls some people to be Catholic? I mean everything I read here on Catholic answers makes sense to me…and it has always bothered me that protestants removed books from the bible. Anyways, just thought I could rant here and maybe get different opinions.

I love you all. Peace.

I’m unaware of any Baptist University here or abroad that grants the Doctor of Divinity degree, unless it’s an honorary one, in which case isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
Regardless, people will pay big bucks to get one. I’m curious where this guy went to school.

 

[CuriousMike]

Like many who posted already here, I have a reasonably similar story.

I was more or less “Deist” or “Agnostic” in some sense during my teen years. Eventually, I started going to an Assemblies of God Church just past Easter in 2013 with a friend I had made relatively recently. The problem there was that no one was really willing to go much further than “Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior,” so I was left to myself, unfortunately. That, and there was no permanent preacher, only the occasional blow-in and “elders” who regularly picked something to discuss…

By the end of the year, I needed something more. Like, a lot more. I wanted to join “The Original Church,” if it still existed. It seemed to be becoming more clear this was the Catholic Church, and thus, I posted here on CAF for the first time seeking advice.

I too had a “sit down and chat” with perhaps the most spiritual lady on the AoG Church at that point. She very charitably shared some typical misconceptions of the Church, but encouraged me to pray and read the Bible to help me choose the right pathway. This is exactly what I did.

As someone just starting out - It is best to perhaps directly refer people to apologetics material, rather than try to defend it. I found very quickly that while I know why Catholics believe what they believe,** I cannot** defend it without mincing words and sounding like a complete joke.
So you’re going to have a lot of “A-Ha!” moments during your journey - but if you want to share them, keep some (comprehensive) notes handy, so you can explain stuff properly if necessary.

In my town, the only other options are/were the Anglican Church or the Catholic Church. It became clear the Catholic Church was “it,” the Church founded by the Apostles and not something else. What I felt now wasn’t just “I should go the Catholic Church,” it became, “I NEED to go to the Catholic Church.” I liken it to a very strong magnetic pull. Many people would describe that as the Holy Spirit.

Basically, you first need to find a good Parish. Its good to have a solid Priest you can go to with questions if necessary, rather than one that can’t defend their faith and actually drive people away with their attitude. Try Parishes run by Conservative orders of Priests.

You might also like to consider joining RCIA at a Parish celebrating the Extraordinary Form. The Priests and people involved in these places are usually VERY strong in their faith. This is not to say that people aren’t faithful elsewhere, but the Latin Mass is only attended by people who know it, and love it and understand it these days, I would think.

Might I suggest a simple prayer book, I have one in “large print” that is quite nice. It has Prayers to the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, God, Jesus, The Sacred Heart and much more.
A Sunday and Weekday Missal will come in handy in time, too (and these usually contain some prayers for before/after Mass PLUS other times!).

Please feel free to search the forums, or ask questions as you see fit.
Many members are happy to discuss Apologetics privately, as I found when I first posted here.

Welcome, and God Bless You on your journey. As my RCIA director said, it is “Life’s Greatest Journey.”

 

[Sola_Catholicus]

Oh, the Baptists lol.

Good people for the most part, but so theologically wrong about almost everything. It’s a theology that truly preys on the simple minded.

 

[dcana]

Actually Alex, Luther did remove 7 OT books from scripture. By him reclassifying canonical books to apocrypha (not scripture) status, is in fact removing books from scripture by definition.

Catholics call those 7 books deuterocanonical, as in scripture.

Protestants call those 7 books apocryphal, as in not scripture, and you’re right, those books don’t even appear in a majority of Protestant bibles today.

Luther is the reason for that. He had no authority to do what he did.

Luther claims “Jews” didn’t include those 7 books in their list of books? Really? Which Jews is Luther speaking of?

The Jews who accepted Jesus and the NT, accepted those 7 books as scripture ( in the Septuagint)… OTOH, the Jews who didn’t accept Jesus and the NT, rejected those 7 books. So what does that say about THEM, and in extension what does it say about Luther the heretic and all who followed him?

Right. These “Jews” not only rejected the deuterocanonicals, they also rejected Jesus Christ, the Son of God and, of course, the entire NT. Do we follow them or the Church of the Living God, the Christian Church, founded by Jesus Christ, whose name is the Catholic Church? So, if we base our Bible on what these Jews did at their “council” (no idea why we would want to do that), we should remove the entire NT from our Bibles.

Of course, the answer to all this is that Luther just used it as an excuse to get rid of books from God-breathed Holy Scripture that he didn’t personally like. Why would anyone listen to anybody who presumed to do such a thing? Yet, the Protesters do, to this day.

 

[CuriousMike]

Right. These “Jews” not only rejected the deuterocanonicals, they also rejected Jesus Christ, the Son of God and, of course, the entire NT. Do we follow them or the Church of the Living God, the Christian Church, founded by Jesus Christ, whose name is the Catholic Church? So, if we base our Bible on what these Jews did at their “council” (no idea why we would want to do that), we should remove the entire NT from our Bibles.

Of course, the answer to all this is that Luther just used it as an excuse to get rid of books from God-breathed Holy Scripture that he didn’t personally like. Why would anyone listen to anybody who presumed to do such a thing? Yet, the Protesters do, to this day.

I believe the “change in scriptures” the Jews made was made after the destruction of the temple in 70AD. Most people will understand this meant animal sacrifices could no longer be performed.
Because of this, and what could be perceived as a ‘growing threat’ from the Christians, they made some dramatic reforms - changing the practice of worship and the scriptures. I suppose it meant they could distance themselves from Christians, or perhaps claim that they were worshipping one of the false Messiahs.

Apologies I don’t have any references on this. I believe it may have been a CAF thread or apologetics material.

 

[steve_b]

I believe the “change in scriptures” the Jews made was made after the destruction of the temple in 70AD. Most people will understand this meant animal sacrifices could no longer be performed.
Because of this, and what could be perceived as a ‘growing threat’ from the Christians, they made some dramatic reforms - changing the practice of worship and the scriptures. I suppose it meant they could distance themselves from Christians, or perhaps claim that they were worshipping one of the false Messiahs.

Apologies I don’t have any references on this. I believe it may have been a CAF thread or apologetics material.

Here’s some information

• 5 myths about 7 books catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0120.html
• Deuterocanon references in the NT cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

 

[Alex_H]

Ya gotta have a valid priesthood. They don’t

Reconciliation is only considered valid if you have a valid priesthood?

By that logic, baptism would only be be valid if it were performed by the Catholic Church. I know that the church teaches that other denominations can validly baptize, so why can’t they validly reconcile?

Just curious.

 

[Alex_H]

Here’s some information

• 5 myths about 7 books catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0120.html
• Deuterocanon references in the NT cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

Thank you, that is very helpful.

 

[guanophore]

Reconciliation is only considered valid if you have a valid priesthood?

By that logic, baptism would only be be valid if it were performed by the Catholic Church. I know that the church teaches that other denominations can validly baptize, so why can’t they validly reconcile?

Just curious.

This is not a matter of Logic, but a matter of sacred tradition. Jesus gave authority to His Apostles to forgive sins, and they passed this authority to Bishops, and presbyters.

Baptism can be validly administered even by a person who is a non-believer.

 

[Alex_H]

This is not a matter of Logic, but a matter of sacred tradition. Jesus gave authority to His Apostles to forgive sins, and they passed this authority to Bishops, and presbyters.

Baptism can be validly administered even by a person who is a non-believer.

But reconciliation cannot be validly administered by someone outside the Catholic Church, correct?

 

[guanophore]

But reconciliation cannot be validly administered by someone outside the Catholic Church, correct?

It can be administered by one who stands validly ordained from the Apostles. The CC recognizes the valid ordination and valid sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[steve_b]

Reconciliation is only considered valid if you have a valid priesthood?

Yes. Jesus breathed on His apostles, and said John20:23

Your question asked in reverse.

Why would Jesus screw up a perfectly simple formula, of going to God in prayer for the forgiveness of sins, by then giving those He ordained, His apostles, the power to forgive or not forgive some one else’s sins?

Remember when John taught

1 Jn 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God*(“1 jn 5 RSVCE - Faith Conquers the World - Every one - Bible Gateway”)] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.*

Prayer doesn’t necessarily fix ALL sins. That’s why Jesus instituted this sacrament of reconciliation for the forgiveness of ALL sin, mortal and non mortal sin. He did that for a reason.

Only to the one’s He ordained and those the apostles ordained got the power to forgive or retain someone else’s sins.
A:

By that logic, baptism would only be be valid if it were performed by the Catholic Church. I know that the church teaches that other denominations can validly baptize, so why can’t they validly reconcile?

Just curious.

Yes It would seem that way

The Church however, has taught that anyone using water and the Trinitarian formula can baptize.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Reconciliation is only considered valid if you have a valid priesthood?

By that logic, baptism would only be be valid if it were performed by the Catholic Church. I know that the church teaches that other denominations can validly baptize, so why can’t they validly reconcile?

Just curious.

As others have pointed out, it’s not really a matter of logic, but another aspect of the Church worth considering is that Jesus gave his Apostles, quite specifically, Peter, the authority to bind and loose.
(Matthew 16:19, 18:18 and others)

Therefore, if the Church decrees that anyone can baptize while reconciliation is reserved to validly ordained priests, she is well within her capacity and authority to do so, logical to us or not.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you, that is very helpful.

actually one of the links didn’t go directly to the source like I thought.

This should do it. 5 Myths about 7 Books

 

[CompSciGuy]

Hi all,

So a few weeks ago I told some friends of mine who are leaders in the Baptist church that I was thinking about becoming Catholic. They invited me over for dinner. Now remember, these are people that I highly respect. They went on about how there’s a difference between petra and petros in Matthew 16

About that…
catholic.com/tracts/peter-the-rock

“As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros andpetra simply meant “rock.” If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).”

…and how Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, not a priest. They also said that Jesus is the high priest, not a priest in the church.

So is this man denying that there are any actual positions of authority within the Church, or that these positions of authority have no spiritual significance? What is his take on the “laying on of hands” in Acts 8:17 as well as apostolic authority and the descriptions of bishops (or “overseers” as they are called) in 1 Timothy 3:1? And how about in John 20:23 where Jesus explicitly gives the apostles the authority to forgive and retain sins. The Bible clearly supports the notions of holy orders as understood in a Catholic and apostolic way.

They also said that the catholic church would kill people if they didn’t agree with their ways, like they would kill protestants in Europe in the 1500’s.

You mean like the way Protestants in the 1500s and 1600s condemned and killed each other as heretics? Like how Calvinists used to tie up Anabaptists in burlap sacks and drown them in the lake? And how Puritans used to accuse people of witchcraft and execute them? Or perhaps how the KKK, run by southern baptists, used to lynch people including blacks, jews and catholics? (My wife’s great grandfather was driven out of his home town by the KKK for being Catholic). I’m just saying… if he’s going to pull that card, he shouldn’t act like his own heritage is clean of any blood. There is blood on everyone’s hands. The best we can do is not repeat the mistakes of the past.

This guy has his Doctorate in Divinity from a Baptist Seminary so I was outwitted.

I know what you mean. My dad has the same degree from a reformed seminary. He would start arguing about greek and whatnot, and I thought that I was in over my head. The thing is, no matter what arguments protestants have for you or me, there is always a Catholic one that is 10 times stronger. A degree is just a degree. Remember Scott Hahn was in a protestant seminary before he became Catholic.

Anyways, I have been attending their church for the past week but I constantly feel something calling me back to the Catholic Faith. Maybe it is the holy spirit? I don’t know.

Yeah, the same thing happened to me. The truth has that kind of effect on people who are open to it.

I feel so guilty. I told the deacon at a local Catholic church that I would attend RCIA soon but I never showed up. I feel like I was duped and brainwashed. Do you think the Holy Spirit calls some people to be Catholic? I mean everything I read here on Catholic answers makes sense to me…and it has always bothered me that protestants removed books from the bible. Anyways, just thought I could rant here and maybe get different opinions.

I love you all. Peace.

The Holy Spirit calls all people to be Catholic. Some respond to this call and others do not.
Since your story sounds so close to my own, I would recommend you do the same thing I did: go to adoration every day, say a rosary (if you are comfortable doing that), attend mass, and listen to “The Journey Home” by Marcus Grodi. Read Scott Hahn if you have the time, particularly “Rome Sweet Home.” Go to RCIA. I went through two years of RCIA before I came into the church. RCIA is just for you to learn about the Catholic faith, don’t be afraid of it.

 

[CompSciGuy]

This is by far my favorite (and by favorite, I mean most far-fetched and ridiculous) interpretation of Matthew 16 by a very famous protestant preacher:

youtube.com/watch?v=1y-XN-rsZ80