Confused about annulment

[mdrnqt]

Hi my name is Michelle and I just found this forum. I am hoping that I will be able to gain some insight, but as of right now I"m completely confused. I was baptized & confirmed Lutheran. I attended church sporatically through college, got married in the Lutheran church. Unfortunately, I got divorced 7 years ago because my first husband had both addiction and psychiatric problems. He was abusive, manipulative and a liar. I knew about his drug problems, and went thru counselling and rehab with him prior to our marriage. I was young, and assumed that although he would have to be vigilant, he would remain drug and alcohol free. I stopped drinking in support of him, although I am not an alcoholic. I attended al-anon and he attended aa & na. We were married. About 4 months after that he resumed his old ways. He would disappear for days. This continued for the entire length of our marriage, approx every 3-4 months he would disappear and resume this behavior. Into this he started displaying psychiatric problems. He attempted suicide and blamed me. He went into 2 psychiatric commitments followed by 2 rehabs. I finally left when he attempted suicide again and set it up to appear as though I was having an affair (which I wasn’t). He was abusive during our divorce. I met my current husband a couple of years later. We were married civilily in 2003 and have 2 children. Recently my husband has gone back to practicing his faith (after having an episode where he was almost unfaithful with another woman) and I have been supporting him in this endeavor. We both feel that it will help our marriage and would like to raise our boys Catholic. However in reading other posts, I’m totally confused. I have started the annulment process, and located my exhusband’s address. I am fairly certain that if he responds he will lie, so it will be a he said she said situation. I was supposed to start RCIA classes, but am not going to at this point in time. If it can take years for the annulment process to go thru and it is denied, then I am assuming that I can’t become a cofirmed Catholic, and that my husband technically can’t take communion because the annulment was denied and he is married to a married woman. Or we could take communion if I completed RCIA but we lived as brother and sister? Does this sound like I’m getting this right? Also can someone explain to me what it means if my first husband wasn’t baptized when we got married? This whole process has me extremely saddened and confused. Ironically approx. 6 months before my husband decided to come back to Catholicism, I had considered trying to convert over on my own so that I could raise my children that way. Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

 

[acadian]

Your best bet is to make an appointment with a priest at your parish and tell him what you have told us. With all the variables, no 2 cases are alike and you’re much more likely to get the right answer from him rather than us.

Don’t worry too much about the “he said, she said” thing. You will be asked to write down your answers. He will be given an opportunity to do the same, and you will both be asked to provide witnesses, I think, that can testify to certain things.

 

[chevalier]

The nullity proceedings actually aren’t as lenghty as people think. To answer one of your questions, yes, living as a brother and sister, one can take Communion. The question what difference it makes that your husband wasn’t baptised (if), is tougher. Petrine privilege (Privilege of Faith) might apply, but you need to ask a professional.

 

[ajcoley1]

Relax.
The most reassuring words I’ve ever heard regarding the annulment process were assurances that NOTHING I say or write will shock anyone-there is alot of emotional/spiritual abuse going on.
Do NOT be aftaid to ask questions & spend lots of time conversing with a priest! And why not begin RCIA? Take care of You!
BTW, my youngest starts CCD on Monday. I get to make choices, no more spiritual abuse here.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Wow that Is a bunch. Okay, first a person baptized catholic is under the church’s direction so that is a factor when present. Second a protestant is expected to be baptized, and marry only once. Third a person lacking formal religion (nonbaptized) may marry without knowledge of god’s plan for marriage. Typically you would make application for annulment based on a lack of knowledge about marriage prior attempting marriage. That is not as complicated a process as you imply. Now it is unclear what the history of your current husband is. Your current husband cannot receive because: if catholic he married a person not known to be free to marry (and outside the church), or is not catholic. As both cases prevent receiving he needs to resolve the condition which applies. You should attend RCIA regardless; if he is not catholic he should attend. If he is catholic he may still attend. Once you complete the RCIA, annulment process, and the pre-marriage counseling, ( all simultaneously) , ASSUMING he has no previous marriage issues, you would be received in the church (regardless of date). You will have your current marriage convalidated.

Btw – just to help you understand, if ten years from now you request a second annulment it would be a very different issue because you were counseled and married under Church law.

Hope that helps

 

[mdrnqt]

Thank you for your help and quick responses. I talked to my ex husband tonight~not an easy task. He was baptized Catholic, but has been married 3 times. He seemed to be decent so hopefully he will remain that way and he’s familiar with the annulment process as his brother went thru it. I was more concerned that he would muddy the waters to make my life miserable. I have talked to our parish priest~he is the one helping me with my paperwork, he is not the best counselor but means well. We shall see what happens. Thanks again!

 

[chevalier]

If your ex was Catholic, then he was bound by the requirement of form. So long as there was no dispensation given to him, or no general dispensation that would apply to him (sometimes dispensation are given to a whole area), your marriage would be invalid because of lack of form. Things being that way, you could have your current marriage (which is also affected by lack of form) sanated (simple convalidation does not remove lack of form), so long as your current husband wasn’t sacramentally married before. For more details and for a reliable source, you should consult the proper authorities in your diocese.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi my name is Michelle and I just found this forum. I am hoping that I will be able to gain some insight, but as of right now I"m completely confused. I was baptized & confirmed Lutheran. I attended church sporatically through college, got married in the Lutheran church. Unfortunately, I got divorced 7 years ago because my first husband had both addiction and psychiatric problems. He was abusive, manipulative and a liar. I knew about his drug problems, and went thru counselling and rehab with him prior to our marriage. I was young, and assumed that although he would have to be vigilant, he would remain drug and alcohol free. I stopped drinking in support of him, although I am not an alcoholic. I attended al-anon and he attended aa & na. We were married. About 4 months after that he resumed his old ways. He would disappear for days. This continued for the entire length of our marriage, approx every 3-4 months he would disappear and resume this behavior. Into this he started displaying psychiatric problems. He attempted suicide and blamed me. He went into 2 psychiatric commitments followed by 2 rehabs. I finally left when he attempted suicide again and set it up to appear as though I was having an affair (which I wasn’t). He was abusive during our divorce. I met my current husband a couple of years later. We were married civilily in 2003 and have 2 children. Recently my husband has gone back to practicing his faith (after having an episode where he was almost unfaithful with another woman) and I have been supporting him in this endeavor. We both feel that it will help our marriage and would like to raise our boys Catholic. However in reading other posts, I’m totally confused. I have started the annulment process, and located my exhusband’s address. I am fairly certain that if he responds he will lie, so it will be a he said she said situation. I was supposed to start RCIA classes, but am not going to at this point in time. If it can take years for the annulment process to go thru and it is denied, then I am assuming that I can’t become a cofirmed Catholic, and that my husband technically can’t take communion because the annulment was denied and he is married to a married woman. Or we could take communion if I completed RCIA but we lived as brother and sister? Does this sound like I’m getting this right? Also can someone explain to me what it means if my first husband wasn’t baptized when we got married? This whole process has me extremely saddened and confused. Ironically approx. 6 months before my husband decided to come back to Catholicism, I had considered trying to convert over on my own so that I could raise my children that way. Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

From what you posted I would suggest that you start RCIA without a specific idea of a date for becoming Catholic, just go and learn about the Catholic Faith and Practice, the Mass, etc. Give the pastor and tribunal all the necessary information asked for, if your certain of it, make sure that your pastor understands that your first husband was not Baptized.

 

[mdrnqt]

So since my exhusband is Catholic and we weren’t married in the Catholic church and he didn’t get dispensation our marriage was invalid because of lack of form? How does that effect the annulment?

 

[mdrnqt]

One more quick question related to the same topic~since my exhusband is Catholic and was married before he married me (he divorced his first wife, they were not married in the Catholic church) what impact does that have? I am going to call our priest this evening and give him this information, since I didn’t know it when we started all of this. Thanks and sorry for asking so much. Michelle

 

[Phemie]

If, as you state, you ex is Catholic and his first marriage and the one to you were outside the Church without dispensation, then neither would be presumed valid due to lack of canonical form. This would be a simple matter of getting his baptismal certificate, your marriage certificate and divorce papers and submitting those to the parish.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

So since my exhusband is Catholic and we weren’t married in the Catholic church and he didn’t get dispensation our marriage was invalid because of lack of form? How does that effect the annulment?

It does not affect your annulment which is focus on the time of your first marriage attempt

One more quick question related to the same topic~since my exhusband is Catholic and was married before he married me (he divorced his first wife, they were not married in the Catholic church) what impact does that have? I am going to call our priest this evening and give him this information, since I didn’t know it when we started all of this. Thanks and sorry for asking so much. Michelle

Your husband will have to go through annulment process for his first attempted marriage.

 

[Phemie]

It does not affect your annulment which is focus on the time of your first marriage attempt

Your husband will have to go through annulment process for his first attempted marriage.

If she’s right and it was outside the Church without dispensation it’s not presumed valid. It’s doesn’t even have to be submitted to the Tribunal even though in most dioceses it will be.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So since my exhusband is Catholic and we weren’t married in the Catholic church and he didn’t get dispensation our marriage was invalid because of lack of form? How does that effect the annulment?

I thought you implied your first husband was not Baptized at the time of your Marriage ? Let your pastor know the facts and he will determine if a Lack of Form applies.

 

[mdrnqt]

I thought he wasn’t baptized~I didn’t find out he was Catholic until last night!! I’m even more confused then before. What does lack of form mean? There is no way he’s going to get an annulment from his first wife he thinks that the annulment process is all about money. So if my marriage to him isn’t valid does that mean that the Church doesn’t recognize it?

 

[Phemie]

I thought he wasn’t baptized~I didn’t find out he was Catholic until last night!! I’m even more confused then before. What does lack of form mean? There is no way he’s going to get an annulment from his first wife he thinks that the annulment process is all about money. So if my marriage to him isn’t valid does that mean that the Church doesn’t recognize it?

A Catholic is obligated to get married according to the form ordered by the Church: to a Catholic, in the Catholic Church.

In your case, since you weren’t Catholic but were baptized, he needed permission to enter a mixed-marriage and he also needed a dispensation from the bishop to marry in the Lutheran Church. Since he didn’t bother to obtain either, the marriage is NOT considered valid by the Church (it’s not recognized). It should be a very simple matter to have that verified.

It also appears that his first marriage wouldn’t be considered valid either, for the same reason.

 

[Roy5]

CATHOLICS AND ANNULMENT

This whole annulment matter always has concerned me. To begin with, dioceses seem to vary so much. Celebrities seem to get annulments more easily than Joe and Mary Doe. Then there is the confusing matter as to the validity of the previous marriage. Was it a Catholic wedding? Was the partner baptized Catholic or Protestant? Etc. etc.

 What troubles me most is that a person who seeks an annulment must try to show that there was some defect in the first marriage. This sometimes gets silly. What I mean is, the first marriage normally is performed with every good intention of remaining in it 'till death do us part'. But circumstances change. People change. Marriage partners at, say, 21 may be very different when they reach middle age. People actually fall out of love for whatever reason, - often difficult to ascertain. Even those who fall out of love may not be able to explain why. It happens.

   The Church often is in no position to determine whether or not an earlier marriage was valid. That is only within the province of God Almighty. He alone can see and understand and weigh all the circumstances.

   The Church has lost millions of the faithful because of divorce. We are supposed to forgive one another seven - no, 70 x 7 - times. But, alas, the Church doesn't practice that. It puts adherents who have unsuccessful marriages through the 'wringer' if they want to remarry without an annulment. What happens? They go to ministers or JPs and often drift away from Catholicism into unchurchedness or into a Protestant congregation. They become alienated, often hostile. It's a failed, uncharitable, narrow policy and it should be changed.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I thought he wasn’t baptized~I didn’t find out he was Catholic until last night!! I’m even more confused then before. What does lack of form mean? There is no way he’s going to get an annulment from his first wife he thinks that the annulment process is all about money. So if my marriage to him isn’t valid does that mean that the Church doesn’t recognize it?

It probably will not change what you have been told, however it might be wise to find out more about him before you marry.

Marriages occur in many forms sacramental marriages are blessed, registered, and recognized in the Church. Other forms of marriages are not registered in the church, some are not recognized. Sacramental marriages did not exist until about 600 years after Christ

 

[Phemie]

**

   The Church often is in no position to determine whether or not an earlier marriage was valid. That is only within the province of God Almighty. He alone can see and understand and weigh all the circumstances.

.**

The Church sets definite rules for valid marriages:

Freedom of choice – you have to want to be married and you have to want to be married to that person. He/she has an obligation to reveal anything about him/herself that would have an impact on your decision to marry: drug addiction, homosexuality, psychiatric problems, sterility, etc. Pressure to get married due to pregnancy or some other reason would also make validity doubtful.

An understanding that it’s until death (if you marry with the idea that you can get divorced if it ‘doesn’t work out’ the marriage isn’t valid)

The intention to be faithful (if you’ve got a lover on the side whom you have no intention of giving up, or you think it’s ok to take a lover if your spouse doesn’t ‘satisfy you’, you aren’t entering a valid marriage).

The intention to become parents (marrying with the intention to never have children makes for an invalid marriage).

It’s what was happening at the time of the vows that’s crucial, although what happened afterwards could prove what was happening at the beginning.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

It probably will not change what you have been told, however it might be wise to find out more about him before you marry.

Marriages occur in many forms sacramental marriages are blessed, registered, and recognized in the Church. Other forms of marriages are not registered in the church, some are not recognized. Sacramental marriages did not exist until about 600 years after Christ

“Sacramental marriages did not exist until about 600 years after Christ”

Where do you get that from?