Confused about Catholic-Protestant Relationship

[rolltidefan]

First of all HELLO! I would like to say that once again I completely agree with Alix1912. I also think what KristinM has said makes for some very good points also. However, I do disagree with her about the Catholics and Prostestants thinking one is better than the other. I see it on BOTH SIDES. I am protestant and I am married to a Catholic. I have seen both sides disrespect each other to the point that it is shameful. Anyway, I think that swings both ways.

I would not listen to anybody that told me to quit a relationship that you truly believe that was brought together and meant to be. Will it be hard? HECK YES! Can it work? HECK YES! I thank GOD that I did not come to this site BEFORE I married. I can only imagine how discouraging it is for you to come here and people tell you do him a favor and break up and etc. My marriage has it rough times because of the religious differences, but I wouldn’t give my husband up then or now because of the differences. When the going gets rough, you just don’t quit! I think that shows a big sign of weakness in itself. Of course it would be easier to have a relationship that the basis were the same, but unfortunately that is not the way life works at times and you just don’t quit. I don’t know for sure if you and your boyfriend are ready to take the next step or are even right for each other, but I know someone that does and I believe that he will give you the answers you are looking for, if you keep him at the center. You keep praying about your relationship and GOD will give you the answers you need…not just some strangers on a site that could really care less about who you and your boyfriend are. KEEP PRAYING. Pray together with him also. Ask him to be in agreement with you on this matter. I guarantee that God will not fail you in any matter, but people will.

Also, you have been getting some ideas from people on here about reading certain material about the Catholic faith. I think that is a good idea. That is how I ended up at this place, is because of some of the Godly and kind people here that suggested articles to read or just studying here about the differences. However, that is a street that works two ways also. Maybe he could read some material about being protestant and then you two could come together to talk about what you both agree on and some of the differences. I can say that since coming here and reading some of the materials that have been suggested to me by people here, it has only strengthened my belief in what I have and had already believed. So reading other materials is sometimes a good thing. It can give you strength in what you already believe in.

I wish you the best and God bless you and your boyfriend!

 

[LaBailey]

Whew! I have a LOT to respond to! First of all I really want to thank all of you who were truly sincere & sweet about your answers. I know I was harsh and the fact that you looked past that gives me hope that not all Catholics are evil, hehe … For those of you who were less sincere, I’m grateful for you too, but not because you were nice about it. I was really almost hoping for a wake-up call and I figured this would be one way of getting it. My boyfriend is just too sweet for that, haha! He’s also very quiet and doesn’t want to upset me so we usually don’t talk too much about this stuff. I figured I would get some “real” answers from regular people. And I also wouldn’t have to worry about hurting your feelings, haha. Thank you very much for your responses.

Yes, in a way I was venting when I first wrote the thread. Because I did feel better already after I wrote it, mostly because I KNEW I would get answers from you guys… answers I seem to not be getting from my boyfriend. I have already scoped out the Catholicism for Dummies book, thank you for that advice. I think it will help tremendously with a lot of my misunderstandings. I also plan to look into the other books you suggested.

The whole thing about the children being Catholic… I don’t like that there’s so many rules that you have to follow as a Catholic. ALSO! To clear something up – I didn’t mean Catholics are narrow-minded! NO NO NO! That came about the wrong way. I was suggesting that if I showed my children both churches then they would have a broader view and not ONLY the catholic viewpoint and be so biased. I think as long as they’re raised in a Christian way then I would be happy. I want them to KNOW & be familiar with both churches, and then be able to decide for themselves what they want to do as they get older.

My Disciples of Christ Church and his Catholic church are both very similar, but obviously also very different. We are worshiping the same God, and that is the most important part. The churches just differ slightly in HOW they are worshiping him. As far as the wafers go… I know you think that they ARE Jesus, but really… THEY’RE STILL WAFERS?!?! No one has the “power” to make them Jesus, and even if they did, why would I want to eat him? I love him I’d feel like a cannibal or something. I still don’t get that part. Maybe it will come with time…

I also think that a very big part of this is the fact that my mother would disown me if I became Catholic. I’m trying to do the research myself (secretly) to prove to myself either: No, now I am absolutely SURE I do not want to be Catholic. Or: Ok, I understand and respect it much more now and I could maybe warm up to it. I want to have tangible evidence to show her when she goes ballistic on me. I want to show her that I’ve seriously been thinking about it and it’s not a split-second kind of decision. I don’t want to feel like I’m divorcing my mother when I marry my husband… Does that make sense? I would need to read and study all of this in secret to not upset my mother and to not give my boyfriend the wrong idea. All I want to do is educate myself to have a better understanding and hopefully grow to respect Catholicism more, not necessarily convert.

I have no problem going with my boyfriend to his church as long as we have equal sacrifices and he joins me at my church on occasion. (AND as long as we go to the small catholic church and not the huge scary one…) When you say “Christ’s Church” I don’t’ like that. Because my church is “Disciples of Christ.” My church is also centered around Christ and you make it sound like any church that is not a Catholic church must therefore not be “good enough” … (Which brings me back to the Catholics thinking they’re better thing…)

I also think that since I love my OWN church so much (& I have gone to the same church since I was born) that I just don’t want change. I love my church and already feel like such a traitor to all of my church family whom I love and love me back. They have been through my entire life with me and helped me so much. What do I do about that? When one man comes into my life and wants to change what I have known to be true my entire life??? Help me with that??..

P.S. Thank you for the scripture verses to read. I think that will really help me tremendously since I can use MY BIBLE to relate to NEW Catholic things… uhm… sort-of like a security blanket??

 

[LaBailey]

And, secondly, any person who actually believes what their faith teaches would not want their children raised in another faith.

1ke: I do believe what my PROTESTANT religion teaches and I am the same stubborn way and don’t want my children being raised any other way. So then I’m stuck again…

In your opinion. There is plenty wrong with it if you are a Catholic.

1ke: And in my opinion there is still plenty wrong with my children being raised as Catholics. Still stuck… Can’t you give me more sincere and less-biased advice? Your comments do not help me any.

I would not be married to anyone but a Catholic precisely because I believe it’s true. I only want to live my marriage out in unity of belief and practice. I only want to raise my children in the faith I believe to be true. That’s not superiority-- it is what everyone should want to do. If you really believe what your denomination teaches, then why would you want to be yoked to someone who does not believe that too? Why would you want to subject your children to things you think are untrue?

1ke: That’s why I’m doing this. The ONLY reason I can see to not be with this man I love is because he’s Catholic. I’m trying to see if that single thing is so incredibly important that it will just never work. Every other aspect seems perfect. If there IS a way (and I’m trying to find this out) to get around the difficulty of a mixed-marriage, then I want to know.

Thank you ChristinaM, beckers and KCtheMommy, you were all very understanding and gave me what I wanted and needed from this post. Thank you also to everyone else for ALL of your advice! Of course I want it “my way.” Who doesn’t want it “their way”? But I’m still willing to take the time and effort to educate myself and make some sacrifices. Most of you brought up the fact that you don’t really know me, but for those of you who didn’t, quit making assumptions! I’ve come as far as to bring this all to the table haven’t I? Now I can continue learning and hopefully find more nice Catholics … Thanks again to all of you!

 

[LaBailey]

1ke, I do not care to hear any more from you, you are extremely biased and I have benefitted much more from the other posters…

Yes, we do have our services written out and printed in books and there are lots of benefits to this, but that is not my point here. You say you like spontaneity, but I think, if you look at it, your church also does things in a particuar order Sunday after Sunday, service after service?

Actually no, Some Sundays are different, like youth Sunday. And I also like how our hymnals show all 4 singing parts, not just the melody… (They want all you trained rats to sing the same part! … ) Sometimes I like to harmonize! …

KristinM - Thank you, Thank you for your very sincere advice, it’s much appreciated! & rolltidefan Your reply was the best of ALL!!! I definitely brought out the tissues reading that one! Thank you all SO MUCH!!!

 

[KristinM]

I also think that a very big part of this is the fact that my mother would disown me if I became Catholic.

Do you really think that your mother would disown you? I coudn’t decide if you were exaggerating or not, hard to tell without tone and inflection. If you truly believe that, then ask yourself, or her, if she will be able to accept your husband and is Catholic beliefs, as a member of her family.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Do you really think that your mother would disown you? I coudn’t decide if you were exaggerating or not, hard to tell without tone and inflection. If you truly believe that, then ask yourself, or her, if she will be able to accept your husband and is Catholic beliefs, as a member of her family.

I can’t speak for the OP but there are belief systems which exercise such control over its members that children are indeed disowned. Look at Michael Jackson’s big brother he was out for years until Jackson went on trial.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Well LaBailey…if your boyfriend is Catholic then you have to deal with his reality.

So why don’t you purchase (or get at the library) some truly authentic Catholic books. I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and also the Compendium of the Catechism.

I see and respect that your faith is important to you, I guess your boyfriend’s is important to him also.

So you really need to discern what you want to do about having a relationship.

Many times when kids have to decide between two faiths, they end up choosing neither. So your future children might not end up Protestant nor Catholic. It seems that your faith means to much to you to leave it up to chance.

 

[rolltidefan]

LaBailey…I think you might be surprised at what you think your mom is thinking. Speaking as a mother…I know I could never turn my back on my kids…for any reason. Now, I do hope my children stay in what I have raised them, but sometimes that is just not the way it ends up. However, if my kids went to change to be Catholic or even some other protestant religion that would not make me disown them. I would just be happy they were staying in the Christian faith. One thing you are going to have to remember though is this…when we marry, we have to start doing things that is right for that marriage, we can’t make everybody happy but as parents we just have to hope that we raised our kids to make the best decisions for them and their “new family.” We as parents can’t forever stick our noses in our kids business when they are adults and tell them, you are going to be this or else. That is just not how it works. Now that works for both sides also, his family might also have to accept the fact that he is not going to be participating as a Catholic, because I am sure that he thinks his family will disown him if he leaves that. I think the important thing is, first of all you and your boyfriend have these serious discussions and talks before marriage and then you both have to decide what is best for your family, which at point includes you and him only, not parents and siblings and etc. I am not saying that those parts of our lives are not important because they are very important in our lives, but there comes a time that they don’t make our decisions for us. You know Christ is our father and he takes us back over and over when we sin, I would choose to think that our earthly parents have the same love. I know I do for my kids. God Bless You! KEEP PRAYING! That is the main thing. Right now, don’t make any hasty decisions. You said you were happy with your church and are you getting fed spiritually there? If so, then stay!

 

[gardenswithkids]

… Of course I want it “my way.” Who doesn’t want it “their way”? But I’m still willing to take the time and effort to educate myself and make some sacrifices. …

Shouldn’t Christians ideally want it God’s way?

I am a Catholic who married a Protestant man. Yes, it can work out, but it is difficult. Far more difficult than most will tell you. We married in the Catholic Church, but I eventuallly left the Catholic Church to attend my husband’s church. He eventually left his church and joined the Catholic church. We both made far more compromises than either of us expected when we entered marriage.

It’s good that you are looking into this now. But LaBailey, frankly many of the things you wrote are quite offensive to Catholics. You repeated your “trained rat” comment (with the added ) and once again insulted our belief that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. Catholics believe that Jesus truly, truly meant what He said literally in the sixth chapter of John’s gospel. (see John 6: 32-66) If you say those types of things in front of your boyfriend, than no wonder he doesn’t really want to discuss his faith much with you.

As I said, I married a Protestant, (who is now Catholic). We did not insult each other’s faith or the members of each other’s church. That’s not a very Christian thing to do, Protestant or Catholic. If you want this to work out, you are going to both have to set aside your own will then work, pray and study to discover God’s will.

 

[basilisk]

And in my opinion there is still plenty wrong with my children being raised as Catholics.

Then marry a Protestant. Honestly.

You have made many hateful comments about Catholics… say those to your boyfriend’s face. HE is a Catholic… remember?

You are mad a 1ke… well, seriously, you spewed some pretty nasty venom at us and you seem to be getting a proportionate response. If you really wanted honest answers, you would not come in here calling us rats, telling us we think we’re better than you, etc.

With your attitudes and beliefs you SHOULD NOT marry a Catholic. Why would you want to hate your own husband, his family, and possibly some or all of your children? Because your attitudes and ideas toward Catholics are hateful. There just is no way to sugar coat that. You are also EXTREMELY ignorant about the Catholic Church and our faith. Some of the stuff you said is so off it’s laughable. Are you getting it from Jack Chick comics?

 

[shajek74]

At the risk of sounding harsh and uncharitable (that is not my intention; I am only very concerned), I SEE BIG RED FLAGS!!! I strongly encourage you and your fiance to step back and take a look at your situation from the outside. You two are “agreeing” to do things the way the two of you want them to be done. The priest in your fiance’s parish will be calling the shots as far as your wedding goes if your marriage is to be recognized by the Church and he wishes to remain in a state of grace and be able to take Communion. The Church does not make exception for raising children in the manor that you two have decided is proper, either. Don’t get me wrong, marriage is about compromise and trust me we all have to do it at certain times. However, the Church and her teachings are not about compromise. Please enroll in RCIA as soon as possible and start your inquiry into the Church and her teachings. Ask lots of questions because there are answers. You will not be pressured into becoming Catholic by the instructors or the parish priest. Do not speak ill of the Church as this could potentially drive a wedge between you and your fiance. IF you are willing to do these things with a genuine heart you will see in time why the Church’s teachings and traditions are what they are. If you feel so strongly that his beliefs are completely contrary to your beliefs then you both should really seek counseling at the very least in addition to and prior to your engaged encounters weekend. By no means do I think I am better than you or anyone else. I just feel blessed to know and share the His Truth.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Child being raised Catholic. Mom is Lutheran:

“Mommy, I learned the Pope is infallible in CCD. Is that true?”

“Mommy, why don’t you pray the Rosary with us?”

Child being raised Baptist. Mom is Catholic:

“Mommy, I learned that all you have to do to go to heaven is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. Mom, are you saved?”

Child is being raised Jewish, Mom is Catholic:

“Mommy, I learned that Jesus is not God. Is that true?”

What’s an intellectually honest Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, or Jew supposed to say to that? Either they are going to go along to get along, or if they are honest they are going to tell the child what their faith tradition teaches… which is the opposite of what they have learned in their religious formation classes. You can’t be both faiths and you can’t raise your children to be “both.”

 

[VivienneJ]

John 6:32-66, as gardenswithkids said[/B]

I have no problem going with my boyfriend to his church as long as we have equal sacrifices and he joins me at my church on occasion. (AND as long as we go to the small catholic church and not the huge scary one…) When you say “Christ’s Church” I don’t’ like that. Because my church is “Disciples of Christ.” My church is also centered around Christ and you make it sound like any church that is not a Catholic church must therefore not be “good enough” … (Which brings me back to the Catholics thinking they’re better thing…) The Catholic Church traces its beginnings back to the Church Christ established with Peter as the leader = Christ’s Church. All other Christian churches basically broke away from the Catholic church at some point. They could all be described as Christ’s Churches in Protest.

I also think that since I love my OWN church so much (& I have gone to the same church since I was born) that I just don’t want change. I love my church and already feel like such a traitor to all of my church family whom I love and love me back. They have been through my entire life with me and helped me so much. What do I do about that? When one man comes into my life and wants to change what I have known to be true my entire life??? Help me with that??.. You boyfriend could be feeling exactly the same way?

I see BIG problems ahead for this couple as shajek74 has said.

LaBailey, there are Protestant denominations which are closer to Catholic teachings and ones which are further and further away from Catholic teachings. I just read up on Wikipedia on Disciples of Christ. No disrespect intended, but your church seems far away from our teachings, it is going to be a difficult task for you to understand.

Sadly there are denominations that would encourage a mother to reject her child over something like this.

Please, LaBailey, for yourself and your boyfriend consider very carefully. Just on the matter of children, he is required by his church to raise his children as Catholics - do you want to be responsible for leading him into disobedience to his church over this matter? And, from experience it is very difficult for a mother to raise her children in a different church from the one she grew up in (that’s exactly what sent me back to the Anglican church when my children were young).

 

[rolltidefan]

Please, LaBailey, for yourself and your boyfriend consider very carefully. Just on the matter of children, he is required by his church to raise his children as Catholics - do you want to be responsible for leading him into disobedience to his church over this matter?

I am not wanting to sound disrespectul, but I find problems with it being asked “do you want to be responsible for leading him into disobedience to his church over this matter.” First of all, he is an adult, he chooses whether or not it will be right to marry her or not. And if he chooses to marry her and it is not as his church requires then that is him and it is not her. It sounds as if he is not speaking up too much on what the Catholic church believes in regards to certain aspects of marriage, raising kids and etc. So that is his fault, not LaBailey’s. She is still following what she believes in and it sounds as if she has made it clear to him what she believes in. Again, I don’t want to sound disrespectful, so I am sorry if I do. As I said, he is the one that should be standing up for what he believes in, not her, so it is not only her that should choose that this should or shouldn’t work.

 

[ChristinaM]

For those of you who were less sincere, I’m grateful for you too, but not because you were nice about it. I was really almost hoping for a wake-up call and I figured this would be one way of getting it. My boyfriend is just too sweet for that, haha! He’s also very quiet and doesn’t want to upset me so we usually don’t talk too much about this stuff. I figured I would get some “real” answers from regular people.

I promise you, posters like 1ke are NOT trying to be cruel to you. She is very blunt on the topic of interfaith marriage, to be sure, but I think that is much better than trying to sugarcoat things and say “all you need is love!” I know it’s hard to hear, but you would do well to take a deep breath, not react in anger, and see the truth in her posts.

As far as the wafers go… I know you think that they ARE Jesus, but really… THEY’RE STILL WAFERS?!?! No one has the “power” to make them Jesus, and even if they did, why would I want to eat him? I love him I’d feel like a cannibal or something. I still don’t get that part. Maybe it will come with time…

As the other posters and I said…read John chapter 6. The Real Presence is not some idea that we just pulled out of thin air…regardless of what Jack Chick tracts may say. There is a real Biblical basis for this belief! There are lots of great articles on the Eucharist on the main Catholic Answers site as well.

When you say “Christ’s Church” I don’t’ like that. Because my church is “Disciples of Christ.” My church is also centered around Christ and you make it sound like any church that is not a Catholic church must therefore not be “good enough” … (Which brings me back to the Catholics thinking they’re better thing…)

This discussion is not going to be productive for you if you keep reading meanings into our words that aren’t there. We believe that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ through Peter. That’s what it means when we say “Christ’s Church.” I’m sorry you don’t like that, but it’s true that Christ is in the Catholic Church. It doesn’t mean he’s not in your church.

I think your perception of “Catholics thinking they’re better” has a lot to do with your preconceived notions about Catholic snobbery. I hope you will get away from this perception once you learn more about us.

I also think that since I love my OWN church so much (& I have gone to the same church since I was born) that I just don’t want change. I love my church and already feel like such a traitor to all of my church family whom I love and love me back. They have been through my entire life with me and helped me so much. What do I do about that? When one man comes into my life and wants to change what I have known to be true my entire life??? Help me with that??..

You sound like you are very devoted to your church and that’s beautiful. All the more reason why you need a LOT of serious thought and prayer before you marry a Catholic man. If you are adamantly opposed to your children being raised Catholic, then it is a bad idea to marry a Catholic. Period.

P.S. Thank you for the scripture verses to read. I think that will really help me tremendously since I can use MY BIBLE to relate to NEW Catholic things… uhm… sort-of like a security blanket??

Yes, believe it or not, Catholics do read and understand the Bible! scripturecatholic.com/ would be a great site for you to understand the Biblical basis of Catholic teaching and worship.

And I also like how our hymnals show all 4 singing parts, not just the melody… (They want all you trained rats to sing the same part! … ) Sometimes I like to harmonize! …

Well, if you attend more Catholic Masses you’ll realize we Catholics can’t sing at all!

But seriously, STOP with that “trained rat” nonsense. Putting a wink beside it doesn’t make it any less insulting.

 

[ChristinaM]

I am not wanting to sound disrespectul, but I find problems with it being asked “do you want to be responsible for leading him into disobedience to his church over this matter.” First of all, he is an adult, he chooses whether or not it will be right to marry her or not. And if he chooses to marry her and it is not as his church requires then that is him and it is not her. **It sounds as if he is not speaking up too much on what the Catholic church believes in regards to certain aspects of marriage, raising kids and etc. ** So that is his fault, not LaBailey’s. She is still following what she believes in and it sounds as if she has made it clear to him what she believes in. Again, I don’t want to sound disrespectful, so I am sorry if I do. As I said, he is the one that should be standing up for what he believes in, not her, so it is not only her that should choose that this should or shouldn’t work.

Agree very much with this post, esp. the bolded part. This should be a two-way street. No offense intended at all, but from the confusion shown by the OP, it occured to me that her boyfriend may not be that knowledgable about Catholic teaching himself. Or he may be a poor soul like me that’s terrible about explaining things face-to-face, or maybe he doesn’t want to talk about these issues. I know from personal experience that it is so very important to get these issues ironed out well before any potential engagement. I think the OP is doing the right thing by bringing this up now.

Anyway, rolltide, I thought that was a good point and not at all disrespectful.

 

[basilisk]

Why do Catholics believe they are so much better than everyone else?

you make it sound like any church that is not a Catholic church must therefore not be “good enough” … (Which brings me back to the Catholics thinking they’re better thing…)

You know, if you keep responding to an accusation that has not been made, that makes YOU the person thinking it… not us. You’re projecting.

I re-read your first post and you claimed that you couldn’t find the “Catholic thing” about incense in the Bible… um, have you read the Old Testament? Because that practice comes from the Jewish temple rites. I find it funny that someone who is so reliant on the Bible as sole authority would not know something that basic.

P.S. Did you know the Catholic Church compiled the Bible? There is no “bible-believing church” (as if we’re not… we have THREE Bible readings at every Sunday Mass and at least two at every daily Mass!) without the Catholic Church!

P.P.S. You came to a Catholic board. Why is it acceptable for YOU to think YOUR church is right, but it’s not acceptable for US to think OUR Church is right? Awfully intolerant position, that.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I am not wanting to sound disrespectul, but I find problems with it being asked “do you want to be responsible for leading him into disobedience to his church over this matter.” First of all, he is an adult, he chooses whether or not it will be right to marry her or not. And if he chooses to marry her and it is not as his church requires then that is him and it is not her. It sounds as if he is not speaking up too much on what the Catholic church believes in regards to certain aspects of marriage, raising kids and etc. So that is his fault, not LaBailey’s. She is still following what she believes in and it sounds as if she has made it clear to him what she believes in. Again, I don’t want to sound disrespectful, so I am sorry if I do. As I said, he is the one that should be standing up for what he believes in, not her, so it is not only her that should choose that this should or shouldn’t work.

All the more reason why she should not marry him, and he should not marry her, unless he converts. It is not meant to be mean, cruel or horrible. It is meant to save them both agony down the line.

 

[LaBailey]

Well since reading all of your posts I have already learned a lot. I will continue to read and try to make the most of it. I would, however, like for some of you to quit trying to prove me wrong. That’s not why I’m here. All I’m asking for is your advice on how to help this situation. I don’t care about your comments that are only making things worse. All that your harsh comments are doing is reinforcing my beliefs about some Catholics being poor “Christians.” (Your statements are so mean.) Shouldn’t you rather be trying to draw me in and proving to me how wonderful Catholicism is? All you’re doing is just pushing me away. Anyway, thanks (to most of you) for all of your advice.

 

[rolltidefan]

Agree very much with this post, esp. the bolded part. This should be a two-way street. No offense intended at all, but from the confusion shown by the OP, it occured to me that her boyfriend may not be that knowledgable about Catholic teaching himself. Or he may be a poor soul like me that’s terrible about explaining things face-to-face, or maybe he doesn’t want to talk about these issues. I know from personal experience that it is so very important to get these issues ironed out well before any potential engagement. I think the OP is doing the right thing by bringing this up now.

Anyway, rolltide, I thought that was a good point and not at all disrespectful.

I agree with you 100% that is should be ironed out before. If these things are talked about before, then there should be no question on either side after the matter of where they both stand. Then that could save a lot of arguing in the future. I think most of the advice given thus far by both sides has been very helpful. I think most are right, it is not an ideal situation, but it is also one that you can make work. With that being said, if I were either, I would not change what I believe because in the end, if you are just changing for someone else, that is not going to work either. And then with that being said, yes if he remains Catholic and she says no to all the rules and the children being raised Catholic and etc. that will be a problem and they probably will go their seperate ways. If he doesn’t stand up though to what he believes and goes ahead with a marriage in her church (which I see as still perfectly valid through the eyes of God which yes is the church but that is for whole other thread and argument. lol) then he will just have to live with that and not expect to come back years later and then all of the sudden expect her to change and etc. Then, he will be the one coming on here years later and posting a thread about wanting to come back but wife has a problem with it. And of course then my answer will be, of course she does, don’t expect her to change now, when she told you YEARS ago this is what she was standing for.