Confused about Catholics

[Lucy107]

Hello.

Ever since I can remember, I’ve been bewildered by Catholics having problems.
Let me explain:

I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics. I’ve always envied my Catholic classmates and the adults their faith in God. I’ve thought that if I had faith in God (The Creator), I’d have no problems. That is, I thought that if I would believe in God, no task would be difficult, even if objectively, it may require a lot of effort, time, and other resources to accomplish. I’ve thought that if one has a special connection to God, the One Who Presides Over All, then everything else falls into place, and there is no reason to ever be afraid, worried, or despaired. Even if one is ill, homeless, and persecuted.

Given this, I’ve never understood how come some Catholics, and some Christians in general, complain about this or that, how they say they have problems in their faith, or are desperate about their life situation, and such.

I’ve witnessed emotions of extreme despair when a Catholic would say, “What are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?!” after a destructive hailstorm.

On one such occasion, I almost said to such a person, “What?? Don’t you believe in God??”

I just don’t understand how someone who is a Catholic can have problems or be so hopeless.

What am I missing here?

 

[christofirst]

Being Catholic does not make one immune to suffering. Our faith can certainly help us deal with life’s trials, but it does not automatically change our response to pain, grief or loss. People of faith are still human, and those inclined to worry will still get anxious, and those who are overburdened will often still complain. Our faith does give us hope for a better future, but for now, many of us are still “mourning and weeping in this valley of tears,” as the time-honored Salve Regina prayer so aptly puts it.

 

[Lucy107]

Being Catholic does not make one immune to suffering.

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

 

[christofirst]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

We Christians share in each other’s suffering, and we share in Christ’s suffering, and this can often make our suffering more tolerable or give it some higher meaning, but we still suffer. It seems to me that Buddhists seek to transcend suffering by denying the reality of suffering, but this is not a Catholic notion. It would be nice if faith always imparted a force field to shield us from suffering, but it does not. It can change our attitude about suffering and help us through it, but as I say, this is not an automatic response. We have to work at it, and for many of us it is a life-long process.

 

[Lucy107]

It seems to me that Buddhists seek to transcend suffering by denying the reality of suffering,

I suppose there are people whom claim to be Buddhists who say or do as you describe. (A problem with Buddhism is that all kinds of things are called Buddhism.)

A traditional Theravadan Buddhist approach to suffering is to have the proper understanding of suffering, knowing what causes suffering, and then, through a course of practice, make an end to suffering. If there’s someone who doesn’t deny the reality of suffering, it’s the traditionalist Buddhists.

It would be nice if faith always imparted a force field to shield us from suffering, but it does not. It can change our attitude about suffering and help us through it, but as I say, this is not an automatic response. We have to work at it, and for many of us it is a life-long process.

I have some background in Buddhism. Traditional Theravadan Buddhism according to the Pali Canon doesn’t seem to be in conflict with Catholicism. (I find that having a Buddhist background makes it easier to understand the sin of pride and the problems of undue appropriation that comes with pride.)

That said; if suffering is due to sin, then in order not to suffer, one would need to be free of sin. Per this, it is conceivable that the less one will sin, the less one will suffer.

 

[Spencerian]

I suppose there are people whom claim to be Buddhists who say or do as you describe. (A problem with Buddhism is that all kinds of things are called Buddhism.)

A traditional Theravadan Buddhist approach to suffering is to have the proper understanding of suffering, knowing what causes suffering, and then, through a course of practice, make an end to suffering. If there’s someone who doesn’t deny the reality of suffering, it’s the traditionalist Buddhists.

I have some background in Buddhism. Traditional Theravadan Buddhism according to the Pali Canon doesn’t seem to be in conflict with Catholicism. (I find that having a Buddhist background makes it easier to understand the sin of pride and the problems of undue appropriation that comes with pride.)

That said; if suffering is due to sin, then in order not to suffer, one would need to be free of sin. Per this, it is conceivable that the less one will sin, the less one will suffer.

Even God has suffered. And He, as Christ, was *completely *sinless. And he suffered in a catastrophic way. Not just through the extremely painful scourging and crucifixion, but in the metaphysical nature of His Sacrifice. He offered Himself as sacrifice to the Father for every sin, past, present and future.

It’s why God chose the Second Person as fully human as well as fully divine to make this Sacrifice. He had to be fully human or he wasn’t worthy of punishment (as we all are when we have sinned). But He also had to be an being of infinite power and might to withstand the burden of an infinity of sin.

That said, Christ had said, directly or indirectly, that humans do and will suffer. Not only because the world is broken because of original sin but because those who choose Him will be persecuted and suffer.

Being Christian doesn’t ward you from sin. It helps you identify it to avoid it, and reconcile with God in case you have it.

I wouldn’t fall into the Judaic trap of “if you are unclean/crippled/suffering, you or your parents must have sinned.” Christ made it clear that often suffering just happens because of the nature of the world after Adam.

God doesn’t want us to suffer, but we live in a suffering world. Some things happen deliberately by evil people, others are natural.

We all are taught, in faith, to *endure *what suffering comes to us, since Christ endured far more so that our own suffering gains the same reward as he illustrated on the third day: Eternal life and an eternal, glorified body.

 

[InNomineDomini]

What am I missing here?

Basically put, you’re holding the average Catholic to the standard that we *should *be held to, but yet not understanding that spiritual development is a process of cooperation with Grace, and that the vast majority of us will never get very far along that process in this life.

To use an analogy, spiritual growth is the planting of a beautiful garden; but it’s not proper to simply sow a seed and then to stamp our feet and wonder why it hasn’t instantly sprung up to fill our lives with beauty.

Likewise, growing in holiness takes time, and many of us may ultimately have the goal of being with God forever, but yet, we have these little side-trips we take, these little detours, where we want both God and the world, to some extent. (In fact, that’s kind of how St. Thomas Aquinas defined venial sin, if I’m not mistaken.)

As always, don’t look to those of us who are constantly sinning in some way, but look to the Saints.

One of the biggest problems that outsiders to the Catholic faith have is in looking at those of us who rarely take our medicine, so to speak, and of then judging the medicine based on our shortcomings.

Instead, look to those who **have **lived out their Christian life, who **have **taken up their crosses with Christ daily, and learn from them.

It is in the Saints that you see true Christianity, and the true wonder and beauty of Grace, and the true human being, made in the image and likeness of God, in their full earthly glory.

Here’s a little audio series on St. Francis that you may be interested in:ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-1511358658&T1=francis

 

[Antegin]

Catholics are people. They still suffer. When Jesus went to His friend Lazarus and he was dead, He wept even though He knew He was going to raise him from the dead.

They say God won’t give us more than we can bear. Yet, Jesus fell three times before they crucified Him. Then on the cross, He thirst. He called out to His Father that He had forsaken Him.

Suffering is a part of life. God doesn’t make the suffering happen. People with free will choose a course of action and sometimes they choose wrong and others pay for it. In your suffering, pray that you may not be despondent or (forgot the word) but rather submit to God’s Will which is love and mercy itself.

 

[smead2942]

Hello.

Ever since I can remember, I’ve been bewildered by Catholics having problems.
Let me explain:

I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics. I’ve always envied my Catholic classmates and the adults their faith in God. I’ve thought that if I had faith in God (The Creator), I’d have no problems. That is, I thought that if I would believe in God, no task would be difficult, even if objectively, it may require a lot of effort, time, and other resources to accomplish. I’ve thought that if one has a special connection to God, the One Who Presides Over All, then everything else falls into place, and there is no reason to ever be afraid, worried, or despaired. Even if one is ill, homeless, and persecuted.

Given this, I’ve never understood how come some Catholics, and some Christians in general, complain about this or that, how they say they have problems in their faith, or are desperate about their life situation, and such.

I’ve witnessed emotions of extreme despair when a Catholic would say, “What are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?!” after a destructive hailstorm.

On one such occasion, I almost said to such a person, “What?? Don’t you believe in God??”

I just don’t understand how someone who is a Catholic can have problems or be so hopeless.

What am I missing here?

Holding the Catholic faith does not make us immune to earthly suffering. In fact, it almost guarantees it. 95% of the Apostles and Church Fathers endured horrific torture and, ultimately, martyrdom for the sake of Christ. Do you think they converted so that they could become immortal? I don’t.

Our suffering doesn’t have to be considered detrimental. When I burn my hand at work, I remember Jesus’ hands nailed to the cross, and suddenly things don’t seem so bad. It’s all a matter of perception. Getting up early for Mass on Sunday isn’t always easy, but I can bet you that Christ was pretty tired while enduring his sorrowful Passion.

If I walked outside and noticed my baby (2011 Malibu) was destroyed by basketball-sized hail, I’d probably cry a little, panic, then call the insurance company. That doesn’t make me atheist! I’m a firm believer in divine providence. Who knows? Maybe that car had an airbag recall and would’ve killed me in an accident. Maybe God wanted me to have a Corvette instead. (wishful thinking, lol)

On the night he was betrayed, Jesus said “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” - you see, he didn’t want to suffer, but was absolutely willing to-- and did. For US.

Christianity doesn’t promise us better circumstances; it promises us a better life. This world is not our final destination. Our suffering is trivial when compared to eternity in Heaven.

Pax.
Spencer

 

[rinnie]

Hello.

Ever since I can remember, I’ve been bewildered by Catholics having problems.
Let me explain:

I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics. I’ve always envied my Catholic classmates and the adults their faith in God. I’ve thought that if I had faith in God (The Creator), I’d have no problems. That is, I thought that if I would believe in God, no task would be difficult, even if objectively, it may require a lot of effort, time, and other resources to accomplish. I’ve thought that if one has a special connection to God, the One Who Presides Over All, then everything else falls into place, and there is no reason to ever be afraid, worried, or despaired. Even if one is ill, homeless, and persecuted.

Given this, I’ve never understood how come some Catholics, and some Christians in general, complain about this or that, how they say they have problems in their faith, or are desperate about their life situation, and such.

I’ve witnessed emotions of extreme despair when a Catholic would say, “What are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?!” after a destructive hailstorm.

On one such occasion, I almost said to such a person, “What?? Don’t you believe in God??”

I just don’t understand how someone who is a Catholic can have problems or be so hopeless.

What am I missing here?

A lot, you are missing a lot. Where did you ever get the idea? Surely not from the word of God.

He never said we would not feel lonely at times, but he did say we are never alone. He ever said we would never have fear, anxiety etc he said when you feel this way to come to me and I will give you rest.

Actually everything you said is the exact opposite of what Jesus told us. He told us to remember this, if the world hates you remember they hated me first. If you love me and follow me you will be persecuted, if I was persecuted and hated what makes you think you will not be either.

See what I think you are truly missing is this. Something my Dad told me a long time ago. Now I am going to share this with you, but in no one expect you to understand it. But here it is.

He told me that Jesus was perfect and they crucified him, what do you think they will do to you? He told me that this is not our world, if it was we would be happy everyday and have no problems, no if you love this world this world is indeed yours. Remember everytime you suffer or things are not the way they should be to rejoice, because you know the reward will be in the next world.

Be glad, this world is temporary, the next is eternal. That is where you will have no fear, hunger, anxiety, because the next world is of God. If this world were of God it would be perfect.

 

[rinnie]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

Where did you get this? Surely not from the Catholic faith.

You are so far off in left field it is amazing. Actually here is a shocker for you, the closer you become to God the more you suffer. Shocked?

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

Magical thinking.

 

[rinnie]

I suppose there are people whom claim to be Buddhists who say or do as you describe. (A problem with Buddhism is that all kinds of things are called Buddhism.)

A traditional Theravadan Buddhist approach to suffering is to have the proper understanding of suffering, knowing what causes suffering, and then, through a course of practice, make an end to suffering. If there’s someone who doesn’t deny the reality of suffering, it’s the traditionalist Buddhists.

I have some background in Buddhism. Traditional Theravadan Buddhism according to the Pali Canon doesn’t seem to be in conflict with Catholicism. (I find that having a Buddhist background makes it easier to understand the sin of pride and the problems of undue appropriation that comes with pride.)

That said; if suffering is due to sin, then in order not to suffer, one would need to be free of sin. Per this, it is conceivable that the less one will sin, the less one will suffer.

Now you got that one right. Almost! Yes the less sin, the less suffering. But the point you seem to miss is this, human suffering is not always caused by the one that suffers.

Children are starving, Why? Blame God? Why? Do you not believe that God did not give humans what is needed to feed the whole world? You don’t believe in this country alone we could not grow enough food to fill the world?

But it is much easier to blame God then take on responsibility don’t ya think!

 

[Lucy107]

Holding the Catholic faith does not make us immune to earthly suffering.
/…/
Christianity doesn’t promise us better circumstances; it promises us a better life. This world is not our final destination. Our suffering is trivial when compared to eternity in Heaven.

I never said anything about better circumstances.
I spoke about suffering.

Like the Buddhists say, pain is not optional, but suffering is optional.

Some people here seem to be conflating pain (and other external circumstances, such as hunger, poverty, disease etc.) and suffering (which is a person’s response to external circumstances).

A lot, you are missing a lot. Where did you ever get the idea? Surely not from the word of God.

I “got it” by extrapolating from the basic definition of “God.”

Magical thinking.

Is the point of Catholicism to be miserable about living in this world?

Yes the less sin, the less suffering. But the point you seem to miss is this, human suffering is not always caused by the one that suffers.

No, I didn’t miss that point. I don’t know why you think I did.

 

[Lucy107]

Basically put, you’re holding the average Catholic to the standard that we *should *be held to, but yet not understanding that spiritual development is a process of cooperation with Grace, and that the vast majority of us will never get very far along that process in this life.

I don’t think any Catholic (or any other religious person) would think of me as anything but a brute beginner at best.
I’ve been called all kinds of things. I’m not offended, am far too used to it by now.
But, given this, I presume that they are all more advanced than I, know everything better than I. Based on this, I consider my best knowledge and practice to still be vastly inferior to theirs.
So I take my best knowledge and practice, and try to see how theirs is superior to it.

As always, don’t look to those of us who are constantly sinning in some way, but look to the Saints.

I’ve heard that many people who are now considered saints, actually lived very ordinary lives, and were truly saintly only for some short period of time.

One of the biggest problems that outsiders to the Catholic faith have is in looking at those of us who rarely take our medicine, so to speak, and of then judging the medicine based on our shortcomings.

Actually, I do two things:

1. I take for granted that anyone who claims to be Catholic does so in all earnestness and is a fairly advanced practitioner. I assume that religious affiliation is not something anyone would declare lightly.
2. I project onto others: I wouldn’t consider someone inferior unless I would believe that I am superior. So I project that those who call me some lowly terms deem themselves superior to me, and for all practical intents and pruposes, should be treated as such.

I don’t know with what other attitude I could approach religious people.

Here’s a little audio series on St. Francis that you may be interested in:ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-1511358658&T1=francis

Thank you. I’ve downloaded them.

 

[dee_burk]

I think you are missing the HUMAN factor in the equation.
Some humans are mentally wired to “woe is me”, some are wired for “praise God i am still alive!”, then there is the middle.

I am a pessimist with a good attitude on life and faith, my hubby is an optimist with a grouchy attitude on life and faith. Go figure.

 

[Lucy107]

I don’t know. I seem to be missing some essential doctrinal point.
Maybe it is Catholic to suffer in this world.

 

[christofirst]

Is the point of Catholicism to be miserable about living in this world?

No. As Jesus tells us in St. John’s Gospel, “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” And St. Teresa of Avila famously said, “God, save me from long-faced saints.” Nevertheless, we will all experience suffering here on earth to some extent. It might be easier for some to take than it is for others, and some might be able to understand and accept it through the light of faith better than others too. So while joy is indeed our goal, if not completely attainable in this life but certainly so in Heaven, still, we should not be too hard on anyone who finds life’s burdens too difficult at any given time.

 

[Sarcelle]

Hello.

Ever since I can remember, I’ve been bewildered by Catholics having problems.
Let me explain:

I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics. I’ve always envied my Catholic classmates and the adults their faith in God. I’ve thought that if I had faith in God (The Creator), I’d have no problems. That is, I thought that if I would believe in God, no task would be difficult, even if objectively, it may require a lot of effort, time, and other resources to accomplish. I’ve thought that if one has a special connection to God, the One Who Presides Over All, then everything else falls into place, and there is no reason to ever be afraid, worried, or despaired. Even if one is ill, homeless, and persecuted.

Given this, I’ve never understood how come some Catholics, and some Christians in general, complain about this or that, how they say they have problems in their faith, or are desperate about their life situation, and such.

I’ve witnessed emotions of extreme despair when a Catholic would say, “What are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?!” after a destructive hailstorm.

On one such occasion, I almost said to such a person, “What?? Don’t you believe in God??”

I just don’t understand how someone who is a Catholic can have problems or be so hopeless.

What am I missing here?

I recommend that you meditate on the agony in the garden. Christ, God that He is, begs the Father to spare Him from the agony. His suffering is so great, He sweats blood, but in spite of it all, He remains obedient to the Father’s will.

Look up the dark night of the soul. Suffering plays a part in the Christian journey.

 

[tifischer]

It takes great faith to be that close to God that even in the middle of a terrible injustice you are loving and joyous (although there is a place for sorrow but not in fear or anxiety but in mourning)…consider Jesus suffering agony on the cross yet does He complain? No, Jesus on the cross actually cares and saves others. Think of St Paul in prison, does he cry and complain or does he sing with joy? We have to develop a close and personal relationship with Jesus to experience this oneness with God even in the difficult times of our lives. We have to learn to depend and trust in God in all times. The Saints are great examples of people who lived in this great of faith. We pray that the Lord does not put us to the test and that He may increase our faith through grace.

Blessings!