Confused about Catholics

[smead2942]

I think you are missing the HUMAN factor in the equation.
Some humans are mentally wired to “woe is me”, some are wired for “praise God i am still alive!”, then there is the middle.

I am a pessimist with a good attitude on life and faith, my hubby is an optimist with a grouchy attitude on life and faith. Go figure.

Amen.

Some people are naturally “glass-is-half-empty” and vice versa. I’m inherently pessimistic but that is changing more and more every day.

 

[Todd977]

Anyone baptized in the Catholic Church is considered a Catholic. The Church encourages infant baptism. Although infants are only licitly baptized when there is a well-founded hope that their parents will be raised in the Catholic faith, that hope is not always realized. So, there are many Catholics who are so in name only.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I don’t know. I seem to be missing some essential doctrinal point.
Maybe it is Catholic to suffer in this world.

That’s what they’ve been telling you.

It’s very strange even to some of us. It’s only just a new idea to me, that suffering isn’t always to be avoided, and that it can be good for the body and soul. And I haven’t embraced it fully at all. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/facebook-cute-giggle-smiley-emoticon.gifMost of us haven’t. It’s very easy not to in a culture that tells you suffering is among the top three evils.

Our Lord embraced His cross. He longed to do that. To go. To drag it up the hill. To fall. And to be nailed to it and to die on it.

Why, you may ask?

Well, have you never spent up late nights trying to help your children with their homework? Have you never stayed at bedside with your sick husband? Have you never been with your parents when they were sick, even though it was inconvenient, and there was nothing you could do for them?

In other words, have you never even suffered the tiniest amount for someone or something you love - someone you want to see happy and fulfilled?

After He died - He rose, not only to prove He was God. But to show us what we will be someday.

I’m not accusing you, mind. But that’s the heart of the Christian faith. Love, at all costs. Even the cost of suffering. Most Americans, even among those called Christians, don’t get that. It’s a very bitter pill to take. I sometimes - often - don’t take it. But I never regret it when I do.

Suffering for love. I offer it to you in the name of the Lord.

 

[pianistclare]

Catholics are people. They still suffer. When Jesus went to His friend Lazarus and he was dead, He wept even though He knew He was going to raise him from the dead.

They say God won’t give us more than we can bear. Yet, Jesus fell three times before they crucified Him. Then on the cross, He thirst. He called out to His Father that He had forsaken Him.

Suffering is a part of life. God doesn’t make the suffering happen. People with free will choose a course of action and sometimes they choose wrong and others pay for it. In your suffering, pray that you may not be despondent or (forgot the word) but rather submit to God’s Will which is love and mercy itself.

THIS^^^. We’re not robots. Nobody is. To think that Catholics don’t feel pain or aren’t at times fearful is a naïve and shows a basic misunderstanding of human nature.
We aren’t saints. Yet.

 

[phil19034]

I don’t know. I seem to be missing some essential doctrinal point.
Maybe it is Catholic to suffer in this world.

Hello Lucy,
Let me see if I can explain it this way. We all “suffer,” but the Church teaches that we are to use our suffering as a way to cleanse ourselves of the stains of our sins.

For example: my grandfather is 92 and lost the use of his legs approx 15 months ago. He’s often in pain and uncomfortable. In reality, he has only three options:

1. complain and blame others and God for his discomfort
2. choose the cowardly option of ending his life
3. choose to give his suffering as a sacrifice to God, which allows others to be inspired by his courage and helps to “burn away the stain of his sins.”

The concept for Catholics is called “redemptive suffering.”

With this said, a lot of people (self identifying Catholics included) who live in the flesh and/or who are very secular or uneducated in their Faith often do not understand the concept of redemptive suffering.

Also, we live in what we call a fallen world, one where we are all susceptible to sin. For those of us who are susceptible to anger, rage, jealously, and/or greed; it may be easy to react in a non-Catholic way to suffering.

But that’s why it’s important for use to perform a self-examination of our consciences often and make use of Confession (which is another thing a number of Catholics neglect)

I pray that this is helpful.

My The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding. Amen

 

[TarkanAttila]

Oh, yes, by the way - it is true that some non-Catholics - variously Buddhists, and perhaps some atheists or irreligious - also recognise the value of suffering.

What really makes Christianity stand out isn’t its stance on suffering so much as the man whom we know to be God, Jesus Christ. That He is God is the major premise of Christianity. Most everything else is subordinate to that reality.

 

[marlap2]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

Did Jesus not suffer?
If we are to take up our cross and follow him, suffering will be a likely thing. Even he said, "But and if you suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are you: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled "
If we unite our suffering with Jesus, we are cooperating in a very beautiful and mystical way in the life of Christ. We find peace beyond all understanding, and can even be a vehicle of prayer that is very unique.
I had two circumstances where I was blessed to suffer. Once I was burned very badly on my feet and all the way up to my knees. When they pulled my pants off, shortly after the burn happened, a layer of skin came with it. I couldn’t walk for a month. The blisters were horrible. However, it happened that I was able to pray and have time with Jesus like never before. Usually my life is very busy, and it’s easy to get distracted. Now, all I had to do is heal, and pray. I united myself and my pain with his for the sanctification of people around me. It was a very holy time. I do not remember the pain. I only remember how beautiful it was. The second time, I was in a bad motorcycle accident. I was thrown approximately 20 feet and landed on my back, breaking my ribs in five places. I thought I was going to die. I was in the hospital for 11 days and during that time the pain was sometimes almost impossible to bear. I am grateful that I had prayer, especially the one short prayer I could say “Jesus, I trust in you”. My breathing was so shallow that was the only prayer I could say.
Don’t be afraid of trials. Remember St. Peter, when he trusted the Lord to enter the water and walk towards him. It was only when he took his eyes off of Jesus that he became afraid “he suffered” We will have trials, we will have pain. It’s part of life. Sometimes it may not seem fair that people who have no faith seem to have so much. But remember this as well, none of those things can be taken with them. The only thing you bring to Jesus at the time of death is how well you lived, how well you loved, how well you carried your cross, and how well you knew him.

 

[Lucy107]

I recommend that you meditate on the agony in the garden. Christ, God that He is, begs the Father to spare Him from the agony. His suffering is so great, He sweats blood, but in spite of it all, He remains obedient to the Father’s will.

Look up the dark night of the soul. Suffering plays a part in the Christian journey.

I just can’t relate to it. Other than perhaps in the sense of “suffering that leads to the end of suffering” – but this requires the qualification that it is not suffering that causes or brings about the end of suffering, but that suffering sometimes accompanies efforts to bring about the end of suffering.

Like I said, I have some Buddhist background, and a teaching like this is standard there:

/the Buddha speaks:/
"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: ‘Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.

accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html

 

[Lucy107]

In other words, have you never even suffered the tiniest amount for someone or something you love - someone you want to see happy and fulfilled?

Making an effort for another’s welfare can be accompanied with suffering, or not.
Suffering is that internal response to hardship, and it’s not an obligatory response to hardship.

THIS^^^. We’re not robots. Nobody is. To think that Catholics don’t feel pain or aren’t at times fearful is a naïve and shows a basic misunderstanding of human nature.
We aren’t saints. Yet.

I wouldn’t call myself a Catholic until I would be sure that I can deliver as promised. I assume everyone else is the same. I might be wrong, though.

Did Jesus not suffer?

Why would Jesus have suffered? Wasn’t he the Son of God, thus in a special connection to God?

If we are to take up our cross and follow him, suffering will be a likely thing.

Do you mean suffering,
or do you mean physical pain, disease, oppression, hunger, poverty etc.?

Because those are two different things.

Even he said, "But and if you suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are you: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled "

It seems to me that when he says “suffer,” he means ‘experience physical pain, disease, oppression, hunger, poverty etc.’

Once I was burned very badly on my feet and all the way up to my knees. When they pulled my pants off, shortly after the burn happened, a layer of skin came with it. I couldn’t walk for a month. The blisters were horrible.

That was physical pain.

However, it happened that I was able to pray and have time with Jesus like never before. Usually my life is very busy, and it’s easy to get distracted. Now, all I had to do is heal, and pray. I united myself and my pain with his for the sanctification of people around me. It was a very holy time. I do not remember the pain. I only remember how beautiful it was.

Which suggests that you didn’t suffer. You were in pain, but you didn’t suffer.

 

[phil19034]

I just can’t relate to it. Other than perhaps in the sense of “suffering that leads to the end of suffering” – but this requires the qualification that it is not suffering that causes or brings about the end of suffering.

Like I said, I have some Buddhist background, and a teaching like this is standard there:

How about start by looking at it from this secular way. When a person embraces their suffering, often good things happen as a result.

Look at “Alex’s Lemon-aid Stands” and multiple foundations that have been established in memory of someone who suffered (often too young).

When people embrace their suffering, they often can draw strength to keep going and keep their spirits high. This often inspires others to action.

 

[christofirst]

Or consider the words of St. Paul, in his first letter to the Romans:

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

It could be said that this represents the Christian ideal for viewing our suffering, but knowing that does not necessarily make it easy to put into practice. Nevertheless, Paul is not telling us to somehow endure pain, grief or loss without suffering, but rather to rejoice in whatever unavoidable suffering comes our way, knowing that through these trials we are united with Christ and each other.

 

[Lucy107]

Or consider the words of St. Paul, in his first letter to the Romans:

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

It’s not clear what he means by suffering here. Perhaps he means some special kind of suffering. Or merely hardship (as in hunger, poverty, etc.).

Hospitals and prisons are full of people who suffer. Few of them seem to end up with character and hope due to their suffering.
Posttraumatic growth is not a given.

It could be said that this represents the Christian ideal for viewing our suffering, but knowing that does not necessarily make it easy to put into practice. Nevertheless, Paul is not telling us to somehow endure pain, grief or loss without suffering, but rather to rejoice in whatever unavoidable suffering comes our way, knowing that through these trials we are united with Christ and each other.

How can one possibly rejoice in suffering?? Joy and suffering are mutually exclusive.
Or do you mean hardship? Hardship and joy are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Rau]

Hello.

Ever since I can remember, I’ve been bewildered by Catholics having problems.
Let me explain:

I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics. I’ve always envied my Catholic classmates and the adults their faith in God. I’ve thought that if I had faith in God (The Creator), I’d have no problems. That is, I thought that if I would believe in God, no task would be difficult, even if objectively, it may require a lot of effort, time, and other resources to accomplish. I’ve thought that if one has a special connection to God, the One Who Presides Over All, then everything else falls into place, and there is no reason to ever be afraid, worried, or despaired. Even if one is ill, homeless, and persecuted.

Given this, I’ve never understood how come some Catholics, and some Christians in general, complain about this or that, how they say they have problems in their faith, or are desperate about their life situation, and such.

I’ve witnessed emotions of extreme despair when a Catholic would say, “What are we going to do now, what are we going to do now?!” after a destructive hailstorm.

On one such occasion, I almost said to such a person, “What?? Don’t you believe in God??”

I just don’t understand how someone who is a Catholic can have problems or be so hopeless.

What am I missing here?

I struggle to understand the perpective from which this post is written. I have never thought of the members of any faith as having achieved perfection in their faith, or having overcome all fears for themself or their loved ones in the matters of this life. Until now, I have never come across anyone with this perspective. It would be easy to suspect that this post comes from an intent to ridicule, rather than to understand, but I don’t suggest that is the case.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Making an effort for another’s welfare can be accompanied with suffering, or not.
Suffering is that internal response to hardship, and it’s not an obligatory response to hardship.

From where we stand, hardship is suffering. What you call suffering, we call complaining, or refusing to embrace suffering. The perfect Christian life - which no one is capable of - is a life that doesn’t refuse suffering or hardship. On the contrary, it embraces hardship wherever it is - even while at the same time asking to be relieved of it. If our muscles are weaker than they ought to be, we put them through hardship - with zeal for it. And we don’t stop until our muscles are as strong as they ought to be, or as we think they ought to be.

So it is with the Christian life. We are imperfect, but the principle is the same. God transforms us through suffering - as long as we embrace, desire, have zeal, for our suffering. Our hardship. The sh** that hits the fan in our lives. Our love of God and far more importantly His love for us makes it much easier to embracing that suffering.

I wouldn’t call myself a Catholic until I would be sure that I can deliver as promised. I assume everyone else is the same. I might be wrong, though.

Then the only Catholic is Jesus. We’re all godforsaken atheists. No one is capable of living a perfect life. It’s what we strive for. But it is virtually impossible without embracing Christ.

Being Catholic doesn’t mean being perfect. It means obedience to Christ, and asking forgiveness when we fail - which will be often.

Have you ever heard of the sacrament of confession, Lucy? Do you know why we have such a thing?

Why would Jesus have suffered? Wasn’t he the Son of God, thus in a special connection to God?

If by this you mean “Why would Jesus have hated God and the world”, then you would be correct to ponder that.

When we say He suffered, we mean He was hungry, He was cold, He was hated, He felt sickness, He felt the worst misery, that is death. All these are wrong and do not belong in this world, don’t you agree? Would the world be worse if these things did not exist?

Yet God became man, and He suffered with us. He lived in the evil that’s in the world like all of us do.

It seems to me that when he says “suffer,” he means ‘experience physical pain, disease, oppression, hunger, poverty etc.’

Yes. That doesn’t seem strange? That physical pain and discomfort will make you feel good - or at least will make you what you ought to be?

That was physical pain.

What do you mean when you say suffering?

Which suggests that you didn’t suffer. You were in pain, but you didn’t suffer.

I don’t think most people would agree with your definition of suffering or misery. Atheists all the time tell us that God causes people to suffer - and they give examples such as disease, death, natural disasters, starving kids in Africa, etc. And they love telling us how God is a genocidal maniac, too.

I see your point - that if something is not intolerable or miserable for you, it’s difficult to call it suffering - but, although we put up with it, we know - and God knows - these things that we put up with do not belong in the world and ought not to exist. Sickness, poverty, hatred, and especially death - these are suffering because they don’t belong in a good world.

 

[Lucy107]

Or consider the words of St. Paul, in his first letter to the Romans:

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

I checked this passage in my native language, and translated into English, it would literally read:

"Thus because we are justified through faith, we live in peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
through whom has opened to us through faith access to mercy, in which we stand and pride ourselves upon the hope for God’s glory.

But not just that, we also pride ourselves upon distress/need/emergency/hardship, because we know that distress/need/emergency/hardship gives birth to patience, patience gives birth to endurance proven by trial, endurance proven by trial gives birth to hope. Hope does not make ashamed, because God’s love is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to us."

The Vulgate has “tribulationibus.” I checked some German translations, and they have the equivalents of “hardship,” “suffering.” I checked two Slovene Protestant translations from the 16th century, and they have “trouble/nuisance”. I checked some other English translations, and some have “problems and trials.”

Clearly, this passage is translated with a variety of concepts; sometimes with reference to external hardships, sometimes with reference to the internal experience of these hardships. This suggests that it apparently isn’t so simple to translate it with just “suffering.”

 

[blueshells]

I wouldn’t call myself a Catholic until I would be sure that I can deliver as promised. I assume everyone else is the same. I might be wrong, though.

This is dangerous thinking–it is a manifestation of pride.

I thought this way when I was discerning conversion to Catholicism–it was “I have to make sure I can actually be a good Catholic before I convert.”

I was growing close to St. Mary Magdalene at that time, and once while I was meditating on her love for Christ, there was a thought that said, “How dare you. How dare you reject the gift that He died to give you. Isn’t His grace sufficient?”

So we are all at different points in the spiritual walk. It doesn’t matter where we are on that path, only that we’re moving towards Christ. Saints are grown, not instantaneously made.

 

[Lucy107]

I struggle to understand the perpective from which this post is written. I have never thought of the members of any faith as having achieved perfection in their faith, or having overcome all fears for themself or their loved ones in the matters of this life.

Sounds like you have a rather secular understanding of what it means to be religious.

Until now, I have never come across anyone with this perspective. It would be easy to suspect that this post comes from an intent to ridicule, rather than to understand, but I don’t suggest that is the case.

Looks like you’ve never envied people their religion. Spiritual envy is real. I’m not the only one to have experienced it (here’s a book).

This, and it comes down to how I understand when people claim to have “the one true religion.”
To me, in order to know which religion is the right one, requires omniscience, or at least being beyond all greed, anger, and delusion. I thus presume that those who claim to have been able to choose the right religion, are omniscient, or beyond greed, anger, and delusion.
I see no reason why an omniscient person or a person who is beyond greed, anger, and delusion would ever suffer - as ‘in wish that things would be otherwise, complain, or just plain feel down and out about the hardships of life.’

Knowing that I am neither omniscient, nor beyond greed, anger, and delusion, I naturally feel bewildered when people who claim to be religious, “suffer.”

I have never seen religious people as “fellow humans” or “neighbors,” but always as a special category that is (or at least should be) above and beyond the ordinary mental strifes of human life.

 

[Lucy107]

This is dangerous thinking–it is a manifestation of pride.

One cannot rightfully say one has a PhD until one actually has a PhD. How is that pride?

I thought this way when I was discerning conversion to Catholicism–it was “I have to make sure I can actually be a good Catholic before I convert.”

It’s not about conversion, but about a repeated public declaration of one’s religious affiliation.

“I am a lowly aspirant to Catholicism” is not the same as saying “I’m a Catholic.”
“I am a lowly aspirant to Catholicism” seems truthful.

 

[Lucy107]

Have you ever heard of the sacrament of confession, Lucy? Do you know why we have such a thing?

As far as I know, confession is for the absolution of sins.

When we say He suffered, we mean He was hungry, He was cold, He was hated, He felt sickness, He felt the worst misery, that is death. All these are wrong and do not belong in this world, don’t you agree? Would the world be worse if these things did not exist?

Interesting. So there seems to be a doctrinal point here.

What do you mean when you say suffering?

I’ve already explained it many times.
Suffering is a person’s internal, mental response to external hardship.
If one breaks one’s leg, one has pain.
If one feels down and out about having a broken leg, one suffers.
External hardship is a given, suffering isn’t.

I see your point - that if something is not intolerable or miserable for you, it’s difficult to call it suffering -

No, that is not my point at all. See above.

but, although we put up with it, we know - and God knows - these things that we put up with do not belong in the world and ought not to exist. Sickness, poverty, hatred, and especially death - these are suffering because they don’t belong in a good world.

Interesting. So this seems like a doctrinal stance.

Could you provide some scriptural and doctrinal reference for this?

The traditionalist Buddhists and some Hindus would say that aging, illness, and death, greed, anger, and delusion, all of them in their various forms, poverty, hunger, separation, oppression, are a part of conditioned existence.

They would not say “Life should not be like that” or “A good life would be without those.”
That it’s nice if those things aren’t present, and to some extent, we can prevent them from happening, but that it is misguided to think that a good life can only be had when those are not present.

I don’t think they would say either “Those things don’t belong in a good world” nor “Those things don’t belong in a good world.”

They have more a stance like “Aging, illness, death, separation, and oppression, hunger, poverty etc. are simply part and parcel of life on Earth, and there is no point being upset about them one way or another.”

 

[Lucy107]

That should be –
I don’t think they would say either “Those things don’t belong in a good world” nor “Those things belong in a good world.”