Confused about Catholics

[Lucy107]

O Lord my God, teach my heart this day where and how to see you, where and how to find you. You have made me and remade me, and you have bestowed on me all the good things I possess, and still I do not know you. I have not yet done that for which I was made. Teach me to seek you, for I cannot seek you unless you teach me, or find you unless you show yourself to me. Let me seek you in my desire, let me desire you in my seeking. Let me find you by loving you, let me love you when I find you. Amen.

This sounds very bold! Very bold.

I have copied the prayer to a card to have with me.

Very bold.

 

[JRKH]

I guess I just haven’t overcome the trauma I experienced growing up as the only non-Catholic among Catholics.

I sometimes still feel like a helpless six-year old who is accused of things she doesn’t even remotely understand, but who understands that it is about something grave, given the tone of voice and look on the face of the accusers.

It seems that I sometimes emotionally revert back to those times, and then I forget about everything I have read in the Bible or the Catechism or The Imitation of Christ, or I just remember the fire and brimstone parts … Come to think of it, I don’t even seem to notice it when it happens. It’s only later, if I re-read my journal or posts on forums that I think “Well, what was going on with me here??”

I find it hard to believe that God loves me. I think that if anything, God merely puts up with me.

Can I ask - - why is it you are the only “non-Catholic among Catholics”. In your OP you said, “I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics…”.
You mean you have never been baptized?

Peace
James

 

[Lucy107]

Can I ask - - why is it you are the only “non-Catholic among Catholics”. In your OP you said, “I grew up as the only non-baptized child among Catholics…”.
You mean you have never been baptized?

No, I’ve never been baptized. My parents are cradle Catholics who had some bad experiences with Catholics, and they distanced themselves from Catholicism altogether. My grandparents actually wanted me to be baptized, but my parents opposed, saying that I should freely decide what religion I would be. My parents also didn’t want me to go through the troubles they have experienced with Catholics. The rest of the family were all Catholics (except for one cousin my age; but his family wasn’t in close contact with the rest of the family). I went to a public school, and all the children of my age there were Catholics; except for one, but he was at least baptized (in disputes, he was counted to the Catholics).
On a few occasions, religious tensions broke out at school over my not being baptized. It was strange. I was excluded and faulty in some profound way that I didn’t understand, but I did understand it was about something grave.

Looking back, the situation with the rest of the family was sometimes really bizarre. Like when on church holidays when I was staying at my grandmother’s, they didn’t know what to do with me, whether to take me to church with them or not.

Once for St. Nicholas, my cousin taught me to pray the Lord’s Prayer, saying that if I will show that I can pray it, I will get a present. I still remember how we stood in the middle of the living room and recited the prayer, and then my cousin got a present, and I didn’t. And the adults (grandmother, aunt, and uncle) looked at me with incredulity and ridicule.

Things like that. No serious physical or psychological abuse. But consistently such little things, and a threat over my head that I didn’t understand, but felt deeply.

 

[JRKH]

No, I’ve never been baptized. My parents are cradle Catholics who had some bad experiences with Catholics, and they distanced themselves from Catholicism altogether. My grandparents actually wanted me to be baptized, but my parents opposed, saying that I should freely decide what religion I would be. My parents also didn’t want me to go through the troubles they have experienced with Catholics. The rest of the family were all Catholics (except for one cousin my age; but his family wasn’t in close contact with the rest of the family). I went to a public school, and all the children of my age there were Catholics; except for one, but he was at least baptized (in disputes, he was counted to the Catholics).
On a few occasions, religious tensions broke out at school over my not being baptized. It was strange. I was excluded and faulty in some profound way that I didn’t understand, but I did understand it was about something grave.

Looking back, the situation with the rest of the family was sometimes really bizarre. Like when on church holidays when I was staying at my grandmother’s, they didn’t know what to do with me, whether to take me to church with them or not.

Once for St. Nicholas, my cousin taught me to pray the Lord’s Prayer, saying that if I will show that I can pray it, I will get a present. I still remember how we stood in the middle of the living room and recited the prayer, and then my cousin got a present, and I didn’t. And the adults (grandmother, aunt, and uncle) looked at me with incredulity and ridicule.

Things like that. No serious physical or psychological abuse. But consistently such little things, and a threat over my head that I didn’t understand, but felt deeply.

WOW - - - just - - - WOW

Was this in the U.S.?

To my sensibilities this shows some serious dysfunctions that really have nothing to do with the Church or her teachings…

I hope that in some small way your time here will be of help to you in coming to terms with some of this past.

How old are you now? What do you think your parents reaction would be if you chose to be baptized Catholic?

Peace
James

 

[Lucy107]

Was this in the U.S.?

Europe.

To my sensibilities this shows some serious dysfunctions that really have nothing to do with the Church or her teachings…

Yes … There’s the official Catholic doctrine … and there’s Catholicism as it is actually practiced, by various people.

At least I’ve seen how bad things can get, so if something like that would happen again, there’d be no element of surprise. I do have that advantage.

I hope that in some small way your time here will be of help to you in coming to terms with some of this past.

I hope so too.

How old are you now? What do you think your parents reaction would be if you chose to be baptized Catholic?

Close to forty. I am sure that my father would oppose (he says “religion is just fairy tales”). I know that my mother would sort of agree, passive-aggressively, in a “Let’s just get over with this” manner. At funerals, when there’s a Catholic service, she still makes the sign of the cross in a barely visible manner.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

Many good, religious people have suffered.

The idea that one shouldn’t believe in God because there is suffering is a tired, old, useless argument fundamentally based on personal selfishness. :yup:

 

[Lucy107]

The idea that one shouldn’t believe in God because there is suffering is a tired, old, useless argument fundamentally based on personal selfishness.

You’ll have to copy-paste where I’m making that argument!
It seems that you’ve misread my post.

 

[JRKH]

Europe.

OK…very different culture obviously.

Yes … There’s the official Catholic doctrine … and there’s Catholicism as it is actually practiced, by various people.

Absolutely - and if one is to make a choice, they need to base it on doctrine and not on what they see practiced by various people.

At least I’ve seen how bad things can get, so if something like that would happen again, there’d be no element of surprise. I do have that advantage.

A big advantage right there.

Close to forty. I am sure that my father would oppose (he says “religion is just fairy tales”). I know that my mother would sort of agree, passive-aggressively, in a “Let’s just get over with this” manner. At funerals, when there’s a Catholic service, she still makes the sign of the cross in a barely visible manner.

Well - you said that your parents didn’t baptize you so you could make your own decision right?
Well your nearly 40 - - so whether he opposes or not - - he gets his desire - - you make your own choice.

Peace
James

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Why not?

I thought the whole point of believing in God, per the one true religion, is precisely that one transcends suffering.

Not that one becomes such as to be beyond aging, disease, death of the body, poverty, hunger, oppression, but that one doesn’t suffer anymore when experiencing those things.

I think part of the problem is described by one author of being in the “first half of life.”

Most of us as Catholics, are still in the “first half” where we are kind of finding our ways around. I don’t know whether the “first half” is even necessary, but it almost seems like it is – where we basically get our conscience “formed” etc. Clearly many of the mystics are more where you are talking, and Paul even talks of “rejoicing” in his suffering for a couple different reasons. In this “second half of life” we move into a more of a transformation phase – much of which is very counter-intuitive to a “first half” mindset.

What you are talking about seems to only be experienced by a few Catholics. I sometimes wonder whether the real “mysticism” going on in the Church took place so often outside of public view, because the whole idea of people being free from “mental slavery” or being immune to “suffering” would make them less able to be manipulated and controlled by fear, intimidation, and other mental violence. So the mystics went and hid, while the bishops and the priests and the lay people held guard at the borders, spitting and killing mastodons when necessary. So maybe they didn’t even benefit from it, but they gave their lives so we could have this truth handed down and revealed to us – starting with the printing press and now the Next Major Step is the Internet. I’m making all this up, but it seems consistent with what little I do know.

MS

 

[VesselofMercy]

Lucy107

I did not read all of the replies, but I hope you don’t mind me replying to your original post.

You are so right that there should be a recognizable difference in the way that Christians suffer!

I believe this difference comes from true saving faith and saturating ourselves in the Word of God. God’s Word is so full of beautiful truths to help us through times of trials and suffering.

For example:

Romans 6:3-5
Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Romans 8:18
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 1:2-4

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

1 Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

Plus we have the hope of the new heaven and earth

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

I could include way more scripture than this.

So you’re right. Christians will suffer, but we should not look like unbelievers when we do. We are told to rejoice!

We should remember “…this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison” (2 Corinthians 4:17)

 

[VesselofMercy]

Although this isn’t entirely related it demonstrates the attitude I hope God will help me have in the midst of suffering in my life.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=G-V_91c5ojU

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Lucy107

I did not read all of the replies, but I hope you don’t mind me replying to your original post.

You are so right that there should be a recognizable difference in the way that Christians suffer!

I believe this difference comes from true saving faith and saturating ourselves in the Word of God. God’s Word is so full of beautiful truths to help us through times of trials and suffering.

I could include way more scripture than this.

So you’re right. Christians will suffer, but we should not look like unbelievers when we do. We are told to rejoice!

We should remember “…this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison” (2 Corinthians 4:17)

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Although this isn’t entirely related it demonstrates the attitude I hope God will help me have in the midst of suffering in my life.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=G-V_91c5ojU

I think what he is saying for the most part makes sense, but I’m not very impressed by the delivery because I don’t enjoy listening to angry voices because it’s hard for me to focus on the message and not my sadness for the apparent anger and anxiety in the speaker.

I don’t necessarily agree or disagree that what he calls “the prosperity gospel” is an accurate rendering of a mainstream preaching mode, because if it is I don’t listen to it so I have little first hand. I’ve heard some preaching that sounded a bit like that, but generally not. Nor am I interested in the “fire and brimstone” approach like I still remember once Jimmy Swaggart pointing at the screen and screaming, “little girl, you have SINNED!” I’m pretty sure his remedy for that little girl is to “show her faith in God” by sending him a contribution.

 

[VesselofMercy]

The prosperity gospel is preached by people like Joel osteen.

I don’t recall any children being yelled at in that video. And I don’t think a two minute clip is enough to label someone a “fire and brimstone” preacher. The only anger Piper has is of the gospel of Christ being defiled. Although he is often passionate in his preaching he is actually usually very soft spoken, and speaks with graciousness, love, and kindness.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The prosperity gospel is preached by people like Joel osteen.

Oh, him.

I don’t recall any children being yelled at in that video. And I don’t think a two minute clip is enough to label someone a “fire and brimstone” preacher. The only anger Piper has is of the gospel of Christ being defiled. Although he is often passionate in his preaching he is actually usually very soft spoken, and speaks with graciousness, love, and kindness.

No I wasn’t saying this guy was fire and brimstone; I agreed with much of what he said. I just don’t like the usage of “angry” as a presentation style.