Confused about Christ's descent into Hell

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SalamKhan said:
Huh?
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Can you think of something more infinitely unjust than God losing His own nature?

That’s really what you’re asking: the “Beatific Vision” is communion with God. Jesus is God. For Christ, “Loss of Beatific Vision” means – quite literally – that Jesus stopped being God.

That’s not what the Church teaches. Jesus never lost His divinity during his passion, death, and resurrection.

Therefore, no: Jesus did not suffer the loss of Beatific Vision during His descent into hell.
 
Gorgias said:
Can you think of something more infinitely unjust than God losing His own nature?

That’s really what you’re asking: the “Beatific Vision” is communion with God. Jesus is God. For Christ, “Loss of Beatific Vision” means – quite literally – that Jesus stopped being God.

That’s not what the Church teaches. Jesus never lost His divinity during his passion, death, and resurrection.

Therefore, no: Jesus did not suffer the loss of Beatific Vision during His descent into hell.
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But, I don’t know what that has to do with my question concerning the comment, wondering where/how the idea that Christ suffered in Hell came about.
 
SalamKhan said:
But, I don’t know what that has to do with my question concerning the comment, wondering where/how the idea that Christ suffered in Hell came about.
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True, but your most recent comment – the one to which I replied – asserted that the catechism of Thomas was saying something that I assert it isn’t trying to say. So, the question of “where did this idea, seen in this quote, originate” is a non-starter, it seems, since the quote doesn’t say what you are claiming it says. 🤷

In your OP, you mention that you recall reading a 19th century document that made the claim that Catholics believe that Christ suffered in hell. Do you have a citation for that document, or a quote from it? That might be helpful in clearing up the confusion…
 
Gorgias said:
True, but your most recent comment – the one to which I replied – asserted that the catechism of Thomas was saying something that I assert it isn’t trying to say. So, the question of “where did this idea, seen in this quote, originate” is a non-starter, it seems, since the quote doesn’t say what you are claiming it says. 🤷

In your OP, you mention that you recall reading a 19th century document that made the claim that Catholics believe that Christ suffered in hell. Do you have a citation for that document, or a quote from it? That might be helpful in clearing up the confusion…
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It was in a Muslim apologetic work entitled Izharul Haq I read years ago, which is how I first heard about the view. I can’t seem to find where it was mentioned in it at the moment. Although, I’m wondering whether it was in the translator’s notes, as I just read one of his notes where he makes the false claim that Purgatory is Hell in (Catholic) Christianity , and makes the snide remark, “because apparently the fires of Hell are purifying for Christians”. This is very ironic, since Muslims believe that sinful believers will enter Hell temporarily until their sins have been expiated.
 
SalamKhan said:
It was in a Muslim apologetic work entitled Izharul Haq I read years ago, which is how I first heard about the view.
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OK. So, I Googled “Izharul Haq”, and found this link. In it, there is this text:
Explaining this belief, Father Martyrose told me that when Christ
accepted human form it become necessary for him to bear all human
sufferings and afflictions. Therefore he was sent to hell and was punished.
When he was delivered from hell, all those who were present in hell before
him were released with him. I demanded some proof and support for this
belief. He answered that this belief did not need any support.
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and further…
In 1833 (1248 AH) a renowned priest, Joseph Wolf, came to Lucknow in
India. He claimed that he had received inspiration from God. He declared in
public that Christ would descend from heaven in 1847. A Shi’ah scholar had a
debate with him. The Shi’ah scholar asked him about the belief under discussion
and he answered that Christ did indeed enter hell and was punished but there
was nothing wrong with this as it was for the redemption of his people.
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Is it one of these that you’re thinking of?

I can’t say that I’d give either of these much credence. In the first quote, we see that the author is giving anecdotal recollections of a conversation with a priest. As much as I’d like to say that “all priests are experts” or “all priests explain the teachings of the Church with clarity and accuracy”, that’s not always the case. Rather, the teachings of the Church are found in a variety of places (some of them have been quoted to you here in this thread). And, in those teachings, we see only that Christ descended into hell, and not that Christ suffered there.

In the second quote, we already have a dubious claim: this preacher claims to receive inspiration from God directly (and, in fact, he makes a false prophecy). Nevertheless, who is this man? Looking on Wiki, I see a Joseph Wolff who made a missionary journey through India at about the time that the text relates. Wolff, however, wasn’t ordained a priest until years later. And, even then, he’s not Catholic – he was an Anglican priest. So, if we want to address the claims that are made about him, we have to remember that he wouldn’t be preaching the teachings of the Catholic Church, but of the Anglican (Protestant) community.

Hope this helps!
 
Gorgias said:
OK. So, I Googled “Izharul Haq”, and found this link. In it, there is this text:

and further…

Is it one of these that you’re thinking of?

I can’t say that I’d give either of these much credence. In the first quote, we see that the author is giving anecdotal recollections of a conversation with a priest. As much as I’d like to say that “all priests are experts” or “all priests explain the teachings of the Church with clarity and accuracy”, that’s not always the case. Rather, the teachings of the Church are found in a variety of places (some of them have been quoted to you here in this thread). And, in those teachings, we see only that Christ descended into hell, and not that Christ suffered there.

In the second quote, we already have a dubious claim: this preacher claims to receive inspiration from God directly (and, in fact, he makes a false prophecy). Nevertheless, who is this man? Looking on Wiki, I see a Joseph Wolff who made a missionary journey through India at about the time that the text relates. Wolff, however, wasn’t ordained a priest until years later. And, even then, he’s not Catholic – he was an Anglican priest. So, if we want to address the claims that are made about him, we have to remember that he wouldn’t be preaching the teachings of the Catholic Church, but of the Anglican (Protestant) community.

Hope this helps!
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That must be it. Thanks.
 
Well, you all would follow the Novus Ordo and then wonder why there’s confusion in the Church’s teachings.

This isn’t the half of it.
 
EamonnMichael said:
Well, you all would follow the Novus Ordo and then wonder why there’s confusion in the Church’s teachings.

This isn’t the half of it.
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A sedevacantist, huh? I used to think that position was correct, until I realised it is impossible for a Catholic to hold the sedevacantist position. Try reading The Sedevacantist Delusion by John C. Pontrello, and War against the Papacy by James Larson (available for free on his website).
 
SalamKhan said:
A sedevacantist, huh? I used to think that position was correct, until I realised it is impossible for a Catholic to hold the sedevacantist position. Try reading The Sedevacantist Delusion by John C. Pontrello, and War against the Papacy by James Larson (available for free on his website).
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Propaganda founded upon heresay and selective “evidence”.

Some of Catholicism’s greatest theologians don’t believe Vat.II to be a valid ecumenical council and yet we’re supposed to believe an alleged Sedevacantist who seen the light and crawled back to be a beacon for the truth?

Nah.
 
Start another thread when you start another discussion, EamonnMichael.

Meanwhile, here’s a joke:

When Jesus descended into hell, why did He find turtles there?

Because all turtles have Sheols.
 
Mintaka said:
Start another thread when you start another discussion, EamonnMichael.

Meanwhile, here’s a joke:

When Jesus descended into hell, why did He find turtles there?

Because all turtles have Sheols.
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😃

I thought you were going to say because hell is on the back of a turtle. Because as someone one said it’s turtles all the way down! 😃
 
The Latin word in the creeds means the place of the dead…not hell for the devil and his angels.
 
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