Confused about Ex Cathedra

[JReducation]

How you can divorce the pre-Vat II opinions expressed by the Church on Islam, from the “Muslim god” is beyond me? You are suggesting that when the pre-Vat II Church talked about Muhammad or the Muslims, they were speaking of a group of people divorced from the Islamic god they worshipped. In other words, Muslims divorced from Islam.

Nonsense.

The understanding of that time was that Muslims worshipped Mohammed. That’s what they were speaking to.

Now, Pope Benedict has instructed Catholics and Muslims to put aside the past arguments and to begin again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Spirithound]

How you can divorce the pre-Vat II opinions expressed by the Church on Islam, from the “Muslim god” is beyond me? You are suggesting that when the pre-Vat II Church talked about Muhammad or the Muslims, they were speaking of a group of people divorced from the Islamic god they worshipped. In other words, Muslims divorced from Islam.

Nonsense.

I’m not entirely sure of the implications of the word “divorced”, so I’ll restate.

The pre-Vatican II statements were about Muslims and their practices, not saying at all who they worshipped. It is possible to worship God but do it very badly.

 

[JReducation]

The Holy Father is not asking us to sell our soul to the devil. He’s asking us to follow his example and walk with him on this journey.

We certainly owe it to the Vicar of Christ to follow his lead. It is our duty as Catholics and an example that we set for people of other faiths regarding the primacy of Peter and the honor and love that we have for our Holy Father.

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Lisa44]

Hi JR,

Is Muhammad a prophet of god?
Is the Koran the inspired word of god?

 

[Lisa44]

…
The pre-Vatican II statements were about Muslims and their practices, not saying at all who they worshipped. It is possible to worship God but do it very badly.

Spirithound,
With all due respect, do you hear what you are saying?

Firstly, you are saying it is possible to speak of Muslims without speaking of Muslims. Secondly, you are saying that it is possible to not worship Jesus, and in not worshipping Jesus, one is worshipping him badly, but worshipping him no less.

 

[Lisa44]

The Holy Father is not asking us to sell our soul to the devil. He’s asking us to follow his example and walk with him on this journey.

We certainly owe it to the Vicar of Christ to follow his lead. It is our duty as Catholics and an example that we set for people of other faiths regarding the primacy of Peter and the honor and love that we have for our Holy Father.

Br. JR, OSF

The church is asking us to believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, and because of this, they are included in the plan of salvation.

Thats quite a hill to climb over don’t you think? Given that Muhammad is not a prophet of god, and the Koran is not a divine book, and they reject Jesus.

 

[JReducation]

The church is asking us to believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, and because of this, they are included in the plan of salvation.

Thats quite a hill to climb over don’t you think? Given that Muhammad is not a prophet of god, and the Koran is not a divine book, and they reject Jesus.

Everything that you’re saying is true. This is where I am reminded by what our holy father Francis wrote into our holy rule. To paraphrase it, we are to be obedient to the pope in all things for he is the Vicar of Jesus Christ. We are to follow the Church where ever she leads us, because she is the bride of Christ. We are to do what is against nature and what is impossible, if the Church asks it of us, because the grace will be there for God does not forget his chosen ones. We are to be as humble as Christ and his Blessed Mother who did not always understand or perceive the end of God’s will, but followed with great love and charity.

Yes, we are to climb a steep hill with our Holy Father Benedict. The real question is not whether the God of Abraham is the God of Islam. The Holy Father, the Vicar of Jesus Christ believes it is the same God. He is making a statement of faith. As the Vicar of Christ, he has the authority to make statements of faith. As children of the Church, we must pray for the fortitude to follow him up the steep hill. It is like following Christ up the hill of Calvary.

We do not know where it will lead, but we must trust that this is the Vicar of Christ who has been selected to lead his brothers and sisters. If Christ has chosen him to do so, then Christ will also give the gift of the Holy Spirit to ensure that we do not fall into error and that many souls are saved.

As Padre Pio once said, “Obedience, obedience, obedience.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bpbasilphx]

Hi JR,

Is Muhammad a prophet of god?
Is the Koran the inspired word of god?

NO to both questions.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post

Whatever Moslems may do, they do not “adore Mahomet”.
Hi Bpbasilphx
They don’t?

---

**No, they don’t.

Now the REAL God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Moslems clearly do not worship Him.**

 

[JReducation]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post

Whatever Moslems may do, they do not “adore Mahomet”.

Hi Bpbasilphx
They don’t?

---

**No, they don’t.

Now the REAL God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Moslems clearly do not worship Him.**

The Muslims have the same problems with the Trinitarian God that many early Christians had and even some current people of faith.

In their mind, God is one. Their understanding of our understanding is that we are dividing God into three. They believe that is a sin. The Jews have the same problem with the Trinity.

Unless we engage in a theological dialogue with their scholars, we will never be able to help them understand that we do not worhsip three deities.

Let’s face it, the Trinity is very hard to understand. Even Augustine struggled with it. No Catholic theologian has ever been able to explain it in a manner that does it justice.

We have to understand that not everyone is going to feel comfortable with the idea of a Trinitarian God unless it is understood through the light of reason and revelation together.

We have to respect a person who says that they will not do something, such as worship the Trinity, because it would be a sin and they do ot want to sin.

I believe that this is what the Holy Fathers are observing. It is ot always obstinacy that keeps them from accepting the Trinity, but it is often conscience and a desire to avoid what to them looks like sin.

Can we condemn someone who wants to avoid what he believes to be a sin?

We can say that they are mistaken. We can say that they do not understand. We can say that they do not have the fulness of truth and revelation. All these things would be true. All these things would be issues where we have to help them grow.

To do so, we must engage. You cannot preach to someone who will not engage with you. When people do not engage, they do not listen. To get people to engage you must develop a relationship of respect from both sides and both sides must show a desire to share and to listen.

Hostility and condescension do not stimulate much cooperation or dialogue.

We have to move to a position of trust. We Catholics must help Muslims not to fear us and we must learn not to fear them. They have to do the same on their side. It’s a two way street.

The issue is not about the one God. The issue is about understanding what God has revealed about himself. In that regard, we have a great advantage. But that does not make us better. It only increases our responsibility to acknowledge God’s presence in other people of other faiths and try to identify how God is trying to communicate with these folks. Once we can identify that, we can point them to it so that they can share in what we have learned about God’s nature.

This is not an easy project. Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict, believes that God is present among the Muslims and that they do worship him. If God is present and they do worship him, then he is trying to break through to them and reveal himself as he has to us. The mission of the Church is to discover how God is trying to communicate and help them listen.

He has called us to join him in prayer and action in this missionary endeavor. We owe it to Christ to support this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bpbasilphx]

There’s nothing here to dialogue about.

 

[JReducation]

There’s nothing here to dialogue about.

I’m not sure how you’re using the word dialogue. The Holy Father wants Catholic and Muslim theologians to dialogue about the Trinity. He wants our theologians to understand their theology and to help them understand ours.

He has also made it clear that ecumenism without evangelization is not real ecumenism. But he has also made it clear that ecumensim begins with mutual understanding and mutual respect.

The dialogue here is to understand and to make oneself understood. If our explanation of God on our terms is not clear to another faith, then we have to explain it in their terms or terms that they understand.

I believe this is why he authorized the new Potifical University in Jordan, where there will be a theology department with Catholic and Muslim theologians dedicated to this task of talking about such questions as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the hypostatic union, the homousious, the the filioque.

The Muslims will be speaking to our theologians about their understanding of revelation and what they believe Mohammed meant.

Hopefully, they will find the common elements between the two faiths. One thing that Benedict XVI told the Muslims while he was in Jordan was that Catholics and Muslims have a common history. He was able to point out that both faiths have a history of martyrdom. This was a good beginning, because it got everyone’s attention. That’s a perfect example of dialogue, when you throw the unexpected on the table and it catches the audience’s attention. People then begin to think and to realize that the other side is also human and not evil as they have perceived and treated each other for centuries.

Another thing that he said that has opened the doors for dialogue was his directive (for lack of a better word) to both sides. He urged both sides to forget about the debates and statements of the past and focus on the present and begin again. This caught many people’s attention. Many people really think that we can’t begin again.

Finally, he also threw on the table the fact that we all want peace and that peace will only come if there is faith in action. This too resonated with both sides.

These are all forms of dialogue. These are just baby steps, but they’re going in the right directions. I’m just sorry I won’t be around to see all of this play out. I’m too old. I’ll only get to see a couple of episodes. Bummer

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Spirithound]

Spirithound,
With all due respect, do you hear what you are saying?

Firstly, you are saying it is possible to speak of Muslims without speaking of Muslims. Secondly, you are saying that it is possible to not worship Jesus, and in not worshipping Jesus, one is worshipping him badly, but worshipping him no less.

Firstly, no, I’m saying it’s possible to speak of Muslims without speaking of Allah.
Secondly, Jews also don’t worship Jesus, but I don’t think anyone would deny they worship the same God as we do.

 

[Lisa44]

Everything that you’re saying is true. This is where I am reminded by what our holy father Francis wrote into our holy rule. To paraphrase it, we are to be obedient to the pope in all things for he is the Vicar of Jesus Christ. We are to follow the Church where ever she leads us, because she is the bride of Christ. We are to do what is against nature and what is impossible, if the Church asks it of us, because the grace will be there for God does not forget his chosen ones. We are to be as humble as Christ and his Blessed Mother who did not always understand or perceive the end of God’s will, but followed with great love and charity.

Yes, we are to climb a steep hill with our Holy Father Benedict. The real question is not whether the God of Abraham is the God of Islam. The Holy Father, the Vicar of Jesus Christ believes it is the same God. He is making a statement of faith. As the Vicar of Christ, he has the authority to make statements of faith. As children of the Church, we must pray for the fortitude to follow him up the steep hill. It is like following Christ up the hill of Calvary.

We do not know where it will lead, but we must trust that this is the Vicar of Christ who has been selected to lead his brothers and sisters. If Christ has chosen him to do so, then Christ will also give the gift of the Holy Spirit to ensure that we do not fall into error and that many souls are saved.

As Padre Pio once said, “Obedience, obedience, obedience.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi JR
I’m thinking about what you said. I honestly don’t know how to respond to the directive to be “obedient” to the Church and the Pope.
Here’s the thing, Christianity and Judaism both require some intellect on the part of the believer. Islam in contrast, requires submission. Its a no-brainer when one must simply submit or be “obedient”. This works for people who are not so strong in analytical or intellectual abilities.
However, when a person is able to think and reason and arrive at truth that is the most excellent. Its not so great to tell people not to think or not to reason because that is what defines a cult.
Whereas I appreciate your “obedience” and it is a virtue, I’m just wondering what its limits are. If people do not examine things they will never arrive at the truth. So the ability to reason is more important than one’s ability to just submit.

 

[Aramis]

At its most basic, even Chrisianity is about submission to the Will of God. So is Judaism.

 

[JReducation]

Hi JR
I’m thinking about what you said. I honestly don’t know how to respond to the directive to be “obedient” to the Church and the Pope.
Here’s the thing, Christianity and Judaism both require some intellect on the part of the believer. Islam in contrast, requires submission. Its a no-brainer when one must simply submit or be “obedient”. This works for people who are not so strong in analytical or intellectual abilities.
However, when a person is able to think and reason and arrive at truth that is the most excellent. Its not so great to tell people not to think or not to reason because that is what defines a cult.
Whereas I appreciate your “obedience” and it is a virtue, I’m just wondering what its limits are. If people do not examine things they will never arrive at the truth. So the ability to reason is more important than one’s ability to just submit.

I see where you’re coming from. And I will answer with a few simple statements.

1. Would you say that Francis of Assisi had a cult around the pope?
2. In his rule and in his testament (a document that he writes later), Francis demands that the brothers are to obey the pope and HIM, even after his death. Today, 800 years later, 1.7 million Franciscans still obey Francis without questioning his judgment. They still obey the pope (with some nutjobs around of course). Just a month ago, a delegation of 1800 Franciscans met to relfect on our Rule and way of life. We celebrated our 800th anniversary. At the conclusion, the delegation traveled from Assisi to Rome to repeat the same act that Francis had done when he first founded the order. The delegation was asked by the brothers and sisters around the world to resubmit to the order’s absolute obedience and honor to the pope in the same manner as Francis had done, with no reservations. Among them there are many scholars and enlightened men, even bishops and Cardinals. Would you consider this a cult to Francis and to the pope?
3. Bonaventure, the great Franciscan Doctor of the Church, gave up his post as Cardinal to return to the friary and serve the brothers, because this is what Francis wanted. Bonaventure spent the last 12 years of his life traveling around Europe preaching on the similarity between Francis and Christ, would you consider that kind of obedience a cult?
4. St. Maximilian Kolbe, who was a scientist and a mathematician, founded a society that promises fidelity to the Immaculate Virgin and to the Gospel as taught by Francis of Assisi. This society has since been raised to the level of a Pontifical Religious Order. Would you consider them a cult?
5. Mother Angelica and Mother Teresa founded their communities in total obedience to the Holy Father and demand blind obedience to him. Both communities have born great fruit. Would you consider that a cult?
6. St. Vincent de Paul insisted that his Daughters of Charity be children of the Church and do was the Church commanded. Was he creating a cult?

Like these, there are many examples in the history of the Church. From where I sit, this kind of trust is not a cult, but the product of reason. It is reasonable to obey, trust and follow the Vicar of Christ, even when we do not understand, because it is the Vicar of Christ who has the power to bind and unbind. It is the Vicar of Christ who was charged with leading his brothers. It was the Church who was founded as the bride of Christ.

In Catholic tradition, the only time that there is a challenge posed is when one is asked to do something that is dangerous for the soul. Believing that Allah, Yahweh and God are the same Divine God-head, is not bad for the soul. At worst, it would be indifferent to the soul of the Catholic, because we’re not Muslim.

We are simply following the faith of Peter, not creating our own statement of faith.

I believe that we need to relax. We live in a world that has a tendency to over analyze things. This can be as disturbing to our inner peace and silence as loud noises around us as we are trying to rest.

The Camaldolese monks have an interesting clause in their rule, which St. Francis integrated into his formation of the first Franciscans.

" Enter into silent obedience and forget the rest, if you are to be holy. Let Christ speak to the soul without interruptions from your thoughts."

Francis added to this

“When you are uncertain, always ask the Lord Pope.”

We have to enter into a spirit of openness to the voice of God and confirm it with the Lord Pope. Trust me, this is not easy. But from personal experience, I can tell you that it is a peaceful existence and much fruit is born from it. I am not the same person today that I was 10 years ago and I spend my days in a very demanding ministry with disabled children and fathers of aborted babies.

When I return to the silence of my cell and remind myself that God speaks through the Church. That I have nothing to fear. I just have to listen and obey, not be master or owner of my own thoughts or my own will, there is a deep sence of peace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[real2all]

well done,
Obedients, it’s a nice concept. Blind obedients without reason and intellect is dangerous. If you need proof, just try to board a airplane, dirve in your car and look a certain way, speak a different language etc. Other religions require Obedient, obedients, obedients, in their teachings. That is what makes this different. Lets say if “THE SUPREME LEADER” of another faith (and you all know who I’m talking about) demanded the death of all people who are not of there own faith be taken out and killed(which has happend not so long ago) wouldn’t you want the people that are to carry out this act to have some knowledge to know “right from wrong” and to know that some people might have the reasoning or intelligence not to carry out such a “savage” “hateful” “terrorible” thing. Free will verus Obedients, chose, but only one.

 

[real2all]

Jesus was a teacher, of our souls and our Savior. He didn’t demand all who are here follow me or die, did he? He gave everyone a choice, “free will”. No the muslim god is soooo different from the God of Catholicism. Why do we expect more from someone that isn’t the “Savior”? The Pope is the Vicar of Christ? Is that higher in status than that of the “Savior”? Yes or No?

 

[1way]

I’m not sure how you’re using the word dialogue. The Holy Father wants Catholic and Muslim theologians to dialogue about the Trinity. He wants our theologians to understand their theology and to help them understand ours.

He has also made it clear that ecumenism without evangelization is not real ecumenism. But he has also made it clear that ecumensim begins with mutual understanding and mutual respect.

The dialogue here is to understand and to make oneself understood. If our explanation of God on our terms is not clear to another faith, then we have to explain it in their terms or terms that they understand.

I believe this is why he authorized the new Potifical University in Jordan, where there will be a theology department with Catholic and Muslim theologians dedicated to this task of talking about such questions as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the hypostatic union, the homousious, the the filioque.

The Muslims will be speaking to our theologians about their understanding of revelation and what they believe Mohammed meant.

Hopefully, they will find the common elements between the two faiths. One thing that Benedict XVI told the Muslims while he was in Jordan was that Catholics and Muslims have a common history. He was able to point out that both faiths have a history of martyrdom. This was a good beginning, because it got everyone’s attention. That’s a perfect example of dialogue, when you throw the unexpected on the table and it catches the audience’s attention. People then begin to think and to realize that the other side is also human and not evil as they have perceived and treated each other for centuries.

Another thing that he said that has opened the doors for dialogue was his directive (for lack of a better word) to both sides. He urged both sides to forget about the debates and statements of the past and focus on the present and begin again. This caught many people’s attention. Many people really think that we can’t begin again.

Finally, he also threw on the table the fact that we all want peace and that peace will only come if there is faith in action. This too resonated with both sides.

These are all forms of dialogue. These are just baby steps, but they’re going in the right directions. I’m just sorry I won’t be around to see all of this play out. I’m too old. I’ll only get to see a couple of episodes. Bummer

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I totally agree with the concept of dialogue with the goal of peaceful coexistence in the real world.

What concerns me is that the courtesy afforded the Muslims is not being extended to Communicants.
How will it be honest dialigue when Catholics are cut off from asking heartfelt questions because of what seems to be fear of rebellion among the beloved.
It is an honest concern to wonder why it is important or nesecerry to meld the two religions at the most basic level in the intrest of getting along.

Muslims and various Christian denominations have gotten along fine for a very long time in Indonesia which is the largest Muslim nation in the world.
Japan is not at all a Christian nation and yet the Church has never attempted to meld theologies on any level, let alone the most basic.
Why has it all of a sudden become anti Catholic to ask why Muslims and Christians must be the same at the most basic level.

 

[JReducation]

I totally agree with the concept of dialogue with the goal of peaceful coexistence in the real world.

What concerns me is that the courtesy afforded the Muslims is not being extended to Communicants.
How will it be honest dialigue when Catholics are cut off from asking heartfelt questions because of what seems to be fear of rebellion among the beloved.
It is an honest concern to wonder why it is important or nesecerry to meld the two religions at the most basic level in the intrest of getting along.

Muslims and various Christian denominations have gotten along fine for a very long time in Indonesia which is the largest Muslim nation in the world.
Japan is not at all a Christian nation and yet the Church has never attempted to meld theologies on any level, let alone the most basic.
Why has it all of a sudden become anti Catholic to ask why Muslims and Christians must be the same at the most basic level.

I don’t think that it is anti Catholic to ask the question. Whoever said tis is mistaken. The Church welcomes the question. What the Church expects is assent, once she answers the question.

Therefore, when the Church says that the Vicar of Christ believes that Allah, Yahweh and God are the same Divine God-head, he is making a statement of faith.

He’s not speaking about a discipline. He is saying what he believes, not in an academic way, but in a faith-filled way. When the popes have said that they believe that Allah is God, they are making a profession of faith, not to Islam, but to God.

They are saying, the God who is known by Muslims as Allah, is really our God.

When we ask the question that you raise, that’s the answer. The answer is that we cannot ignore Allah, because Allah is our God.

Do we have to worship him the way that the Muslims do? Absolutely not. Do the Muslims really understand God, only on some very fundamental levels. They still have a long way to go. Do we have to give up our understanding? Absolutely not. We have to engage in dialogue that allows us to share our understanding in a non threatening way and with a great deal of patience.

The Church is not a cult. The obedience that the Church expects of us is not the same kind of obedience that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Caesar, Pharaohs and some current leaders demand.

The obedience that we are expected to give is a loving obedience born out of a desire to love the Bride of Christ and to reach the spiritual nuptuals of which St. Catherine spoke, but with the blessing of the Holy Father who is the only voice with the authority of Christ on earth.

Read2All posted

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ? Is that higher in status than that of the “Savior”? Yes or No?

Yes he is the Vicar of Christ. No he is not the Savior or higher than the Savior. But to him were given the keys of the Kingdom. To him was given the authority bind and unbind. To him was given the command to lead Christ’s flock. In doing so, Christ shares with him the title “Good Shepherd”. To him Christ promises that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against him. He told Peter that he had prayed for him, individually, not for the others.

Therefore, reason tells us that the Vicar of Christ is the man whom the Father has chosen through which his son speaks and what he says concerning faith and morals is safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.

So when the Vicar of Christ says “I believe that Allah is God,” he is free of error, because such a statement is a public expression of faith. He did now say, “I think”.

When the Church says that she believes that the Muslim people are part of the plan in Salvation History, she’s not making a statement of discipline open for debate or a referendum. She is making a statement of faith. She is expressing what she believes about Salvation History.

Reason tells us that the Church can never make statements of faith and morals that are contrary to truth. Therefore, we obey, even if we do not understand or as Lisa said, we are asked to climb a steep hill, because this has never been said before.

There is no new dogma here. There is simply a statement that has never been made. Nothing new has been said about God or the nature of God.

No one is saying that we must accept the Muslim understanding of God. Only that we must accept that our God has been trying to communicate with the Muslims under the name of Allah, which is really an Arabic word for YHWH. The Arabic speaking Eastern Rite uses the name Allah in the liturgy all the time. So do some of the Spanish speaking Latin Catholics who lived under Arab rule in southern Spain for 800 years. They still refer to Allah instead of Dios.

Obedience is not blind. Obedience is a loving choice. We choose to obey all that comes from God and the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF