Confused about Fatima

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I need some correction, possibly. Wasn’t there a “revelation” that Francisco was going to spend the whole world in purgatory? i.e. to the end of time? I’m confused about, given that, he was canonized by St John Paul II? Can a soul in purgatory be canonized?

My difficulty is partly because of a persistent skepticism that canonization does not “push anybody into heaven” which is what seems to have been implied here.

Any help unraveling this?
 
We are free to accept or reject private revelation.
 
the neighbour of the children was going to spend a lot of time in purgatory. she needed people to pray for her.

saint francisco was going to need to say many rosaries to get to heaven

no mention of him in purgatory
 
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otrrl said:
I need some correction, possibly. Wasn’t there a “revelation” that Francisco was going to spend the whole world in purgatory? i.e. to the end of time? I’m confused about, given that, he was canonized by St John Paul II? Can a soul in purgatory be canonized?

My difficulty is partly because of a persistent skepticism that canonization does not “push anybody into heaven” which is what seems to have been implied here.

Any help unraveling this?
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Are you thinking on First Apparition of the Virgin : Sunday, May 13th, 1917?

Lucia asks if she will go to heaven, and Jacinta, and Francisco. The answer is yes.
And if Maria de las Nieves is in Heaven? The answer is yes.
And Amelia? Answer is yes, only after the Last Judgement (end of the world).
 
Yes, as the above two said. St. Francisco is definitely in Heaven, but Our Lady said he would have to pray many Rosaries. Someone else they knew would be in purgatory till the end of time.

Canonization doesn’t cause the soul to enter Heaven. Saints are in Heaven for some time before they are officially canonized, and most Saints will never be recognized in order to be canonized (otherwise there would be very few in Heaven!). Thomas à Kempis, for example, may have been in Heaven since 1471 for all we know, but the Church doesn’t declare someone a Saint unless she is really, really sure of it. I was told recently by someone that the main reason the Church does it this way, is because when a Saint is canonized, they have a feast day, and a Mass can be celebrated in their honor; so they make extra sure, because it would be tragic for a Mass to honor a soul in hell.
 
otrrl said:
a persistent skepticism that canonization does not “push anybody into heaven” which is what seems to have been implied here.
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Canonization is a declaration by the Church that a soul is in heaven.
Canonization and the process leading up to it does NOT “push anyone into heaven” or affect them getting there in any way. The process is generally started for souls who appear to have a good likelihood of already being in Heaven well before canonization is declared.

If you believe the revelation, then presumably Francisco said those rosaries he needed to say, because Mary told Lucia in June 1917 that she would take Jacinta and Francisco to heaven shortly, but that Lucia would have to stay on earth for some time.
 
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otrrl said:
Wasn’t there a “revelation” that Francisco was going to spend the whole world in purgatory? i.e. to the end of time?
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I believe that Our Lady said that Lucia and Jacinta would go to Heaven, but that Francisco would have to say a lot of Rosaries first. When Francisco was ill and dying he said that he did not mind his suffering because he was suffering to console Our Lord and Our Lady and that he would be in Heaven within a short time. Presumably he had said his Rosaries and much more.
 
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The Blessed Mother never stated that Amelia would be in purgatory until the end of the world, in the apparition.

The three children in their interviews never mention it.

The time frame wasn’t added until Lucia wrote her fourth memoirs in her older age as a nun. Lucia suffered severe scrupulosity and anything she stated outside of the approved apparitions should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

JIm
 
No one is canonizing Amelia, in any event, so it’s a moot point, unless someone would like to say a quick prayer for her soul.
 
It’s not a moot point in that the time frame keeps being brought up across CAF.

I distorts what Purgatory is actually about

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Lucia suffered severe scrupulosity and anything she stated outside of the approved apparitions should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
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Where do you get that from?

Her memoirs did not strike me as being scrupulous, let alone severely so.

Yes, it would be great if Amelia spent as little time in purgatory as possible. As Tis_Bearself said, we should pray for her soul.
 
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“The Documents of Fatima & The Memoirs of Sister Lucia,” by Father Robert J. Fox

It has the interviews of the children and their detailed statements on the visions and what the Blessed Mother said to them.

Page 266 the cross examination of Lucia she states;

“I asked her[The Blessed Mother] about Amelia and she told me that she was in Purgatory.
If she told me something else, I don’t remember. At that she disappeared. rising very high
on the Eastern Side.”

The footnote to this is at the bottom of the page states:

It is strange that Lucia, under oath to tell the “whole” truth did not say, here, that Amelia will be
in Purgatory until the end of the Wold, as she wrote in the fourth Memoirs. It is true that. in this same document, she declares that much later she was tormented “with endless scruples” for not having spoken certain things.

There is also inaccuracy by Lucia in her cross examination. She gives the wrong ages of Francisco and Jacinta, which the footnote corrects.

Jim
 
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Time does not apply in purgatory, anway. The old " 3 years indulgence" attached to certain prayers or actions did not mean 3 years taken off your sentence, it meant the equivalent of 3 years worth of prayers for you by someone here on Earth.

There aren’t any calendars in purgatory, or in heaven or hell. It is not 2018 in any of these places.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
she declares that much later she was tormented “with endless scruples” for not having spoken certain things.
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That does not mean she is necessarily scrupulous in general, let alone mean whst she says should be taken with a pinch of salt. I took this comment of hers to mean that she struggled with what details she ought to keep secret and what ought to be revealed. She was in the position of having to walk a very fine line. I would think most people would struggle with that, considering what was at stake.
 
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The problem is, two other interviews on the apparitions, she never mentions Amilia being in purgatory until the end of the world. She mentions it in her fourth memoirs when she’s a nun.

Then there’s a explanation that Amilia will be in purgatory until the end of the world, “if no one prays for her.” But the Blessed Mother did not say that when she appeared to the three children as shown in their testimonies during the interrogations.

As the author of the book explains about some of the mistakes in their testimony compared to the memoirs, the same is found in Scripture, but no Christian would reject reading and believing in Scripture because of it. As we understand more fully what was meant and the context, we see the truth in the words. The same is true for Fatima, but in this regard, it is private revelation and only the apparitions were approved by the Church.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The same is true for Fatima, but in this regard, it is private revelation and only the apparitions were approved by the Church.
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Would you then dismiss the apparitions at Pontevedra? If so then you dismiss the First Five Saturdays devotion.
 
I’m not dismissing any approved apparitions. merely saying you have to go by the apparitions themselves as the Church approved them.

There are contradictions of what Lucia later wrote and what she and the other two children told to the examiners when they were cross examined.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to accuse me of ?

Jim
 
Lucia never mentions that the Blessed Mother said Amelia would be in purgatory until the end of the world, until she added it in her forth memoire, which was written well after she became a nun.

Her testimonies, twice when speaking about asking about Amelia, Lucia never states that the Blessed Mother told the children of a time frame of how long she’d be in purgatory.

The other two children never mention it, but Francisco stated that he did hear what the Blessed Mother spoke to Lucia.

Anyway, the book I mentioned earlier, “The Documents of Fatima & The Memoirs of Sister Lucia,” by Father Robert J. Fox, is worth reading.

There are errors made in the testimony by Lucia on the age of the kids and dates of the apparitions, but that’s excusable being she could read or write at that time.

Jim
 
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Jim, I’m not trying to accuse you of anything. It just came across to me that you seemed to view Lucia as a somewhat unreliable witness and that much of what she said, outside of the details of the actual secret, ought to be taken with a large degree of scepticism (that could also include the apparitions at Pontevedra, which Lucia experienced, when she was a nun, many years after the apparitions at Fatima).

Apologies if I have caused you any offence by this.
 
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