Confused about "Freedom of Conscience"

[Ben_Sinner]

I saw on a post from someone who mentioned this.

here is the post

"Freedom of conscience" means that if your conscience does convict you, and tell you that it’s wrong to do some good thing (give money to an alcoholic homeless person, join the Catholic Church, etc.) that you cannot and should not be compelled to do that good thing, and if you do do it, even while your conscience convicts you, it’s sin, even though it’s an objectively good thing.

whoa! this is freaky! Does this mean that I am sinning if I go to church when my conscience says I shouldn’t go?

am I sinning if my conscience tells me its a good idea to kill myself or murder people, but I refuse to do it?

I don’t understand this at all. My scruple meter is going off on this one! And as you have probably seen, my conscience tries to make me believe alot of non-sinful things are wrong so I have to believe all those things are wrong?

 

[Ben_Sinner]

so if I read in the Catechism that suicide is a mortal sin and believe it…but my conscience tells me it’s a free ticket to heaven…that means I have to kill myself? or else I will be in mortal sin if i don’t?

 

[Christianus_Dei]

You are confusing conscience with mere feeling. What you know to be good and evil, that is what is important, not if you feel like stealing or not.

It isn’t your conscience, it’s random impulse and feeling you’re talking about.

A conscience can develop, it can be misled, it can be informed, the latter of which is the Church’s job.

I’m sure there will be more responses. Have fun with those.

By the way, I can’t help but feel that a troll be in the dungeon.

 

[CopticChristian]

I saw on a post from someone who mentioned this.

here is the post

"Freedom of conscience" means that if your conscience does convict you, and tell you that it’s wrong to do some good thing (give money to an alcoholic homeless person, join the Catholic Church, etc.) that you cannot and should not be compelled to do that good thing, and if you do do it, even while your conscience convicts you, it’s sin, even though it’s an objectively good thing.

whoa! this is freaky! Does this mean that I am sinning if I go to church when my conscience says I shouldn’t go?

am I sinning if my conscience tells me its a good idea to kill myself or murder people, but I refuse to do it?

I don’t understand this at all. My scruple meter is going off on this one! And as you have probably seen, my conscience tries to make me believe alot of non-sinful things are wrong so I have to believe all those things are wrong?

Ben,

You need to constantly form your conscience and in doing so you are continually learning.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

You are confusing conscience with mere feeling. What you know to be good and evil, that is what is important, not if you feel like stealing or not.

It isn’t your conscience, it’s random impulse and feeling you’re talking about.

A conscience can develop, it can be misled, it can be informed, the latter of which is the Church’s job.

I’m sure there will be more responses. Have fun with those.

By the way, I can’t help but feel that a troll be in the dungeon.

I can promise you that there is no trolling going on around here. Just a scrupulous catholic who also has harm ocd (obsessive intrusive thoughts that try to rationalize harming myself and others) so I hope you understand my concern:blush:

 

[ltwin]

"Freedom of conscience" means that if your conscience does convict you, and tell you that it’s wrong to do some good thing (give money to an alcoholic homeless person, join the Catholic Church, etc.) that you cannot and should not be compelled to do that good thing, and if you do do it, even while your conscience convicts you, it’s sin, even though it’s an objectively good thing.

This sounds like someone was trying to explain the liberty that Christians have in certain areas of Christian life that are not “essential,” but somewhere along the way it all got garbled up. Christians do have freedom of conscience, but that does not mean that “everything is relative.” There are things that are objectively right and objectively wrong. Christians are not free to violate objective moral laws no matter how our “conscience” feels about it.

However, there are matters in which the Christian does have liberty of conscience. For example, Romans 14 discusses eating meat sacrificed to idols, which was a big problem for the early church since it could be difficult to know if meat bought in a marketplace had been prepared as a sacrifice to an idol. Some Christians forbade the eating of all meat for this reason, but Paul said, “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean” (verse 14).

Later on he said, “The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin” (verses 22-23).

So, there are some things that are neither good or bad in and of themselves, but nevertheless people have their scruples. Rather than judge others for their “eating meat” or “not eating meat” for example, we should just accept that people should be free to make up their own minds.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

…and what should I do if my conscience says its a sin to “form my conscience” even though I saw the church teaching saying one has to form their consciece?..I’m not sure what my conscience believes…then that would mean I’m pretty much out of luck right? Please help me on this!

 

[odile53]

Your conscience can be misinformed based on any number of things. That is why we have a magisterium. If you stick to what is taught by the magisterium, you do not have to try to reinvent the wheel and excuse all sorts of errant nonsense based on what a misinformed conscience is telling you. I’d really recommend discussing this with a priest.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

Your conscience can be misinformed based on any number of things. That is why we have a magisterium. If you stick to what is taught by the magisterium, you do not have to try to reinvent the wheel and excuse all sorts of errant nonsense based on what a misinformed conscience is telling you. I’d really recommend discussing this with a priest.

…I’m not trying to be problematic but what if my conscience were to tell me that forming my conscience to believe in church teaching and asking for forgiveness, going to confession, etc. etc. were wrong…would I sin if I decided to do those and since I wouldn’t be sorry for those “sins” I wouldn’t be forgiven…

I ask this because in the past I thought the catholic church and it’s sacraments were immoral and now i feel like since i converted I am living in sin even though I feel like my conscience agrees with the catholic church…

 

[JRKH]

Ben -

Have you read THIS SECTION of the Catechism?

If you have concerns over the role of conscience in our spiritual life, let’s discuss it in light of what the Church says rather than what someone posted on an internet forum.

Peace
James

 

[1ke]

Ben, given your OCD and scrupulosity, you need to STOP reading random things on the internet and trying to apply them to yourself.

Instead you need to solely seek this advice from your pastor and spiritual director.

 

[CopticChristian]

…**and what should I do if **my conscience says its a sin to “form my conscience” even though I saw the church teaching saying one has to form their consciece?..I’m not sure what my conscience believes…then that would mean I’m pretty much out of luck right? Please help me on this!

Ben,

Whoever the you is that is asking this should understand this.

You have acknowledged you have a conscience.

You have rightly pointed out that you can differentiate yourself from your conscience when you say “what should I do”…noting that the conscience says this or that…

Your conscience believes what you cause it to believe as it is a passive recepient of the information provided by that same person that asked “what should I do”

Whoever is asking for help, whoever asks what should I do…is the you that controls your conscience and you are not a slave to it, it is a slave to you…if you give it nothing then it will lead you nowhere.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Here is something for you to read: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

Keep in mind freedom of conscience is not an excuse for sin.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I read that section of the Catechism…

I guess what I mean to ask is we are told we have to obey our conscience even if it’s malformed…so wouldn’t “forming our conscience to accept the church teachings” be rebelling against our malformed conscience, thus it would be a sin?..so it feels like if one were to be in that situation, than there is no hope for salvation because “damned if they do, damned if they dont”

maybe I am overthinking too much, I’m getting a headache trying figure this out. forgive me

 

[JRKH]

I read that section of the Catechism…

I guess what I mean to ask is we are told we have to obey our conscience even if it’s malformed…so wouldn’t “forming our conscience to accept the church teachings” be rebelling against our malformed conscience, thus it would be a sin?..so it feels like if one were to be in that situation, than there is no hope for salvation because “damned if they do, damned if they dont”

maybe I am overthinking too much, I’m getting a headache trying figure this out. forgive me

You are over thinking it too much.

Take 1ke’s advice and speak to your confessor if you are really and truly troubled by this.

Peace
James

 

[Christianus_Dei]

The conscience is to keep us from rebelling against God and commiting evil. If something is not evil, it remains not evil, even if you think or feel that it is evil.

 

[shocktrooper]

I read that section of the Catechism…

I guess what I mean to ask is we are told we have to obey our conscience even if it’s malformed…so wouldn’t “forming our conscience to accept the church teachings” be rebelling against our malformed conscience, thus it would be a sin?..so it feels like if one were to be in that situation, than there is no hope for salvation because “damned if they do, damned if they dont”

maybe I am overthinking too much, I’m getting a headache trying figure this out. forgive me

Ben,

We are not told to obey our conscience if it is malformed. This is a fallacy and is not what the Church teaches.

Pax Christi

 

[fix]

I read that section of the Catechism…

I guess what I mean to ask is we are told we have to obey our conscience even if it’s malformed…so wouldn’t “forming our conscience to accept the church teachings” be rebelling against our malformed conscience, thus it would be a sin?..so it feels like if one were to be in that situation, than there is no hope for salvation because “damned if they do, damned if they dont”

maybe I am overthinking too much, I’m getting a headache trying figure this out. forgive me

Here is what the CCC actually says:

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

All of the teaching on this topic must be taken together. To pull out one portion of the teaching and set it in opposition to the rest of Church teaching is to make the teaching a lie.

Yes, we should follow our conscience. No, that does not mean we are without error. In fact, following an erroneous conscience can be a grave sin.

 

[shocktrooper]

Here, the Church tells us how to form our conscience and that we must obey one that has the proper judgment.

II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

III. TO CHOOSE IN ACCORD WITH CONSCIENCE

**1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.**

1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
• the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58

Paragraphs 1790+ speak on a person that acts on a conscience that makes erroneous judgments and is not properly formed for one reason or another. Para 1790 assumes you know that the conscience it speaks of not acting against is a properly formed one.