Confused about Purgatory

[WhiteDove359]

okay, so I’m reading this book on Purgatory by John Salza, and Im starting to get confused. He says that Purgatory is a place that is conected to Hell, and im even starting to wonder what the point was for Jesus dieing for our sins…or for purgatory…why are both necisary? It makes me wonder…what sins did jesus die for? did he die for our sins and peoples sins AFTER his death, or did he die for all the peopls sins BEFORE his death, and all of our sins are “purged” in purgatory becuase while he was on the cross that was his way of “pruging” the sins of mankind before he was killed? I know purgatory is biblical, I beleave in it…but im starting to feel that Christ suffering on the cross wasnt everything what I thought it was…because one coudl argue, there would be no need for Hell if he died for our sins and paid the price…i guess im really starting to see the protestant point of view…but im just really confused, can any one plese sort it out for me???

preferbly someone who REALLY KNOWS what there talking about…?

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Its because Christ died to redeem us. When we sin, we still incur the punishments of sin, spiritual and temporal. We need to expiate those consequences in this life, or in the next.

 

[jlhargus]

Mark

 

[piejesu]

There are two sets of consequences for sin, one eternal, and the other temporal, the here and the now. Jesus’ death on the cross satisfied in whole the eternal consequences, thus paving the way for our entrance into heaven. However the temporal consequences remain to be satisfied. Think of it this way:

Some youngsters playing ball break a neighbors window in the process. They tearfully admit their guilt to the neighbor and are mercifully forgiven. Charity between the youngsters and the neighbor is restored. However the window is still broken. Who’s responsibility is it to fix it? Purgatory provides the means for us to fix all the windows we broke in the course of our temporal lives.

 

[AwGusTeen]

okay, so I’m reading this book on Purgatory by John Salza, and Im starting to get confused. He says that Purgatory is a place that is conected to Hell, and im even starting to wonder what the point was for Jesus dieing for our sins…or for purgatory…why are both necisary? snip…

I would be confused as well. I have always read/heard that purgatory is connected to heaven - not hell. There is no escape from hell - none. Purgatory is for those who are going to heaven, but need a little (or a lot) of cleaning up first. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Pax!

 

[WetCatechumen]

I would be confused as well. I have always read/heard that purgatory is connected to heaven - not hell. There is no escape from hell - none. Purgatory is for those who are going to heaven, but need a little (or a lot) of cleaning up first. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Pax!

My understanding, and it may be wrong, is this:

Before the Christ took death upon himself and entered Hades, the souls of all men descended there. They either rested, like the soul of Lazarus, or were tormented, like the rich man. However, there was a great chasm between them. They were separated from the Beatific Vision.

When Christ gained the keys to Hades, the righteous dead were able to enter into the Beatific Vision. The unrighteous dead stayed in Hades in torment. At the Final Judgement, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

When a Christian dies with sins upon his soul, but they are mortal, he descends to Hades like all the dead. There, he suffers the just torments for his sins until he is repentant, purified, and holy, aided by the prayers of the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. Upon final purification, the soul ascends to heaven.

Hence, I view Purgatory as being connected to Hades. However, I would also view Hades as being connected to Heaven, as Christ entered Hades and led the righteous dead to the glory of the Father.

As for the fate of unbaptized infants, who have no personal sin of their own, I would speculate this: They are separated from God due to original sin. However, having no sins of their own, there is no torment for them to suffer. To a child born to Christian parents, or who would have been born to Christian parents, the implicit desire for baptism and faith in God were there, supplied by the parents. Hence, I believe that the child would receive a baptism of desire and immediately enter into God’s presence upon death.

In the case of infants born to or who would have been born to non-Christian parents, I do not see any option for their release from original sin except the mercy of God. An Orthodox prayer I love says that the intercessions of the Mother of God are enough to save even the greatest of sinners who has been cast into the depths of Hell. Again, I entrust them to the mercy of God. However, Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. As I understand it, Limbus infantum cannot last beyond the Final Judgment.

This post does not have a nihil obstat or an imprimatur. I am but a new Catholic whose understanding of the faith is severely limited. However, what I posted above is what I understand to be the basic view of the Fathers and the Apostles.

 

[EasterJoy]

From the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

As for unbaptised babies, there has only been speculation, no dogma. The teaching is that “It must be clearly acknowledged that the church does not have sure knowledge about the salvation of unbaptized infants who die” but the current opinion is “there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable – to baptize them in the faith of the church and incorporate them visibly into the body of Christ” and “many factors that we have considered … give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision” They also say “We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge.” There is a story about this at catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm, but the original document it summarises goes 41 pages.

 

[manualman]

Salza is usually pretty good. Are you sure you read it right?

Before diving into technical terms step back and see the big picture.

Are you absolutely and utterly perfect, right now? No?

BANG! Your house just fell down and you are dead. Judgement day. If you aren’t utterly perfect, you can’t be allowed into heaven. If you were, it wouldn’t be haven anymore! You’d trash the place.

Between the instant you died imperfect and the instant you enter heaven something has to change. Many protestants (the only true generalization is that all generalizations have exceptions) believe that the righteousness of Jesus “covers” your sin and you go right into heaven. They seem not to notice that either heaven is not heaven at all or humans have no free will there. Catholics believe that free will is eternal and that our sinfulness won’t be ‘covered’ in heaven, it will be scrubbed completely away before we enter.

Purgatory is how that happens. Don’t get bogged down in all the terminology of “temporal” vs eternal punishment (which is true once you finally understand it all). Purgatory at its core is about being perfected before we enter heaven so that we don’t destroy the place. Make sure you get the big picture before diving into the technical details.

 

[WhiteDove359]

thanks. I think that will help me. im on page 80 ish in the book…i got a little ways to go.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

It is the teaching of many of the Saints and Fathers of the Church that in purgatory you suffer the same torments as those in hell with this one difference; that in purgatory it’s temporary and cleansing while the torments of the damned are eternal and filled with despair. This is probably what John Salza is discussing.

Keep in mind that “Hell” basically means a separation from God. Usually people think of the ‘hell of the damned’ when they think of hell but this is not so. There is the Limbo of the Fathers (which no longer exists), the Limbo where unbaptized infants go, and then the hell of the damned all of which are simply referred to as “hell.” That’s why in the Nicene and Apostles Creed we say that Christ descended into “hell” - the ‘limbo’ of the Fathers (or as some translations go - “He descended to the dead”) - not the hell of the damned who are without hope.

 

[manualman]

It is the teaching of many of the Saints and Fathers of the Church that in purgatory you suffer the same torments as those in hell with this one difference; that in purgatory it’s temporary and cleansing while the torments of the damned are eternal and filled with despair. This is probably what John Salza is discussing.

Yes, but that is rather an important difference! The biggest torment of hell is likely the utter despair of knowing that it is eternal. There is NO hope.

The torments of purgatory are entirely about preparation for heaven. I suspect that purgatory will be a no holds barred experience of the suffering caused by our sins. Almost an aversion therapy if one dares to put it into psychobabble terms…

 

[Lady_Kikyo]

I would be confused as well. I have always read/heard that purgatory is connected to heaven - not hell. There is no escape from hell - none. Purgatory is for those who are going to heaven, but need a little (or a lot) of cleaning up first. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Pax!

I’ve never heard that it was connected with Heaven. It had been my understanding that Purgatory, as well as the Bosom of Abraham and Limbo, were a form of Hell, though not eternal…that there is Heaven, and every other afterlife place is a Hell. The Hell of the damned (Hell), the Hell of the Just (Abraham’s Bosom), and the Hell of unbaptized children (Limbo), and Purgatory…that these are all a “hell” because they’re a separation (though not total in 3 of the 4) from God.

 

[Lady_Kikyo]

From the Catechism:

As for unbaptised babies, there has only been speculation, no dogma. The teaching is that “It must be clearly acknowledged that the church does not have sure knowledge about the salvation of unbaptized infants who die” but the current opinion is “there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable – to baptize them in the faith of the church and incorporate them visibly into the body of Christ” and “many factors that we have considered … give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision” They also say “We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge.” There is a story about this at catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm, but the original document it summarises goes 41 pages.

But that’s a pretty recent opinion, isn’t it? You wouldn’t happen to know if any doctors of the Church or Saints felt this way do you?

 

[rwoehmke]

I am totally confused by the idea of heaven and purgatory or hell and purgatory being next to one another. I thought that rather than being places they were all states of being, in other words a way of existing.

Also baptism of desire is desire on the part of the decedent, not its parents, to in effect live as one who has been baptized would live, trying to follow God’s will as they know it.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I am totally confused by the idea of heaven and purgatory or hell and purgatory being next to one another. I thought that rather than being places they were all states of being, in other words a way of existing.

Heaven and Hell are places and also states. Bodies take up physical space and Heaven is occupied by at least two souls with physical bodies; Christ and the Blessed Virgin. It’s also a state since your guardian angel is right next to you yet he’s enjoying the beatific vision right now no matter where he’s at. Likewise the demons suffer whether they’re on the earth tempting or in the eternal pit.

It’s the common opinion of the Saints that hell is located in the center of the earth.

 

[Catholic1954]

It is my understanding, from reading from the Saints private revelation, that there are levels of Purgatory, the lower ones are closer to Hell where the pains are more intense. This makes sense to me; a repentent serial killer would surely have more to repay than a cloistered nun. In the end, of course, we are the ones who determine where we spend eternity. Jesus’s death on the cross made it POSSIBLE for us to enter heaven, the rest is up to us.