Confused About Salvation

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MarysGirls

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I’m discussing Catholic teachings with a Protestant and he says that the Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. I thought I understood this, now I’m not sure. It seems like one pope says one thing, while the Catechism says another thing, and the Church Fathers say something totally different. 😦

For instance, Pope Boniface VIII said in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D.1302), “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

I don’t get it. I thought Protestants were saved too, but this seems to condemn them. I mean, Catholicism is either “absolutely necessary” or it isn’t.

Can anyone help me understand this? :confused:
 
MarysGirls said:
I’m discussing Catholic teachings with a Protestant and he says that the Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. I thought I understood this, now I’m not sure. It seems like one pope says one thing, while the Catechism says another thing, and the Church Fathers say something totally different. 😦

For instance, Pope Boniface VIII said in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D.1302), “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

I don’t get it. I thought Protestants were saved too, but this seems to condemn them. I mean, Catholicism is either “absolutely necessary” or it isn’t.

Can anyone help me understand this? :confused:
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So as not to rehash the entire topic, I’d suggest that you do a search for this…there have been many threads that have discussed this ad nauseum.

In a nushell, though, there is the possibility of salvation for those outside the Roman Catholic Church. As well, most Protestants are part of the Universal (i.e. Catholic) Church. Here we make a distinction between the Roman Catholic Church and the (Universal) Catholic Church. Subtle, maybe, but very important.
 
MarysGirls said:
I’m discussing Catholic teachings with a Protestant and he says that the Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. I thought I understood this, now I’m not sure. It seems like one pope says one thing, while the Catechism says another thing, and the Church Fathers say something totally different. 😦

For instance, Pope Boniface VIII said in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D.1302), “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

I don’t get it. I thought Protestants were saved too, but this seems to condemn them. I mean, Catholicism is either “absolutely necessary” or it isn’t.

Can anyone help me understand this? :confused:
Click to expand...
Here is a good article someone recently wrote on this very subject:

catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-mathison-is-wrong-on-salvation.html
 
the dogma of “no salvation outside the church” means that to be saved, we must be of one body with Christ,
the church is a body, where Christ is the head, and we are the limbs,

this is really a very complicated thing to discuss, because on one hand, yes protestants can be saved, and yet on the other hand, we cannot make it sound like it’s ok to be protestant,
the thing that would save someone who is not catholic is what’s called “invincible ignorance”, by which someone truly thinks what he believes is right, and is honestly trying to be good, and also believes in Jesus Christ as God,
and in a sense, someone who is sincerely trying to be good and trying to follow Jesus, can be, atleast in spirit, part of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church,

i do believe that protestants who are invincibly ignorant can enter into heaven, because Ann Catherine Emmerich saw protestants in heaven,
but i also believe that in that case, they are not outside the church, but simply ignorant of the true church.

Catholicism is absolutely necessary, because Jesus says - “If any one will not hear the Church, look upon him as a heathen and a publican.”

we are told that we enter into heaven by the narrow gate, and into hell by the broad path, and so perhaps if a protestant takes the narrow path, and atleast lives as God has commanded, then they may be saved, but most protestants, and even many Catholics nowadays, are very much taking the broad path, meaning, they are following the world, and not God.

it is very important that we do not give others the idea that they will be saved as long as they try to be good and believe in Christ, because that is simply not what Jesus has taught us at all, and we have no right to say such a thing which God has not told us.

there are really many factors for salvation, it’s not just about being catholic, but truly being of one body with Christ, and it is by the one true church that God teaches and guides us,
and if any protestants are saved, it is only by the catholic church, because there are two separate forms of belief they have - what they believe in error, and what they believe from the catholic church.
and is it arrogant to say that? no…because the church and it’s teachings are from God, whereas the Protestant religions are man made…if they don’t like one, they just make another, how very convenient, but not from God…

the teaching of “no salvation outside the church” is mostly a dogma for us Catholics who need to try and convert others, because most people don’t even know this dogma, and so how will they know or convert without us helping them?
the teaching is for us to not become lax in our evangelizing, and although the teaching is truly true for everyone, it falls more on us Catholics who know better, because as we are told in the bible, God expects more from those who know more.

well, i’m not sure if i explained what you wanted to know, but if you want to go into more detail about it i’ll be glad to try and explain it further.

ok, hope this helps, take care.
 
The Pope’s words here are taken out of context. He is speaking to Catholics, and to “former” Catholics (polite for heretic or schismatics). Protestants who were never Catholic would have a difficult time understanding the Pope’s teaching.

Catholics believe that only a mortal sin separates you from God (and original sin to an extent). Mortal sin requires full consent and full knowledge of the sin.

The Pope was speaking to Catholics, who fully understand the context of his speech (full knowledge). Properly educated in the faith, they should understand the importance of the Roman Pontiff. So he is reminding them of their obligation to the Pope. Those who continue to disobey the Pope, knowing his full authority, are indeed placing there souls in grave danger.

Modern Protestants are no longer have full knowledge of the gravity of the responsibility to the Pope, so there refusal of obedience to the Pope no longer, in and of itself, separates them from God. This doesn’t change the need to be faithful to the true Church and its human leader, the Supreme Pontiff. All humanity indeed must be subject to the Pope. However Protestants don’t know any better, because they were never raised in the Catholic Faith.

Therefore they read the pope’s words about obedience, and they don’t understand them and rightly reject them, because they understand an allegiance only to Christ. In their understanding, there is no need for a Vicar of Christ - Christ does a fine job representing himself as far as they are concerned!

Without full knowledge of the sin of disobedience to the Pope, they are not held accountable eternally because it. That is how Protestants can be saved without obedience to the lawful leaders and authority of the Catholic Church.
 
They would (in my opinion) not be sentenced to hell, but also never see the beatific vision. I would think they would be ultimately happy for eternity without the vision of God. Ie) Limbo

It is laughable to think that Christ came, died, and established His church, only to make it a free for all for the other 25,000 protestant religions. You can’t simply make up your own rules, start a new church, and be saved. It is an insult to Christ’s death for one, and two, it makes His whole works and teachings pointless. You either are Catholic or not.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I’m sorry I took so long to answer.
runningdude said:
The Pope’s words here are taken out of context. He is speaking to Catholics, and to “former” Catholics (polite for heretic or schismatics). Protestants who were never Catholic would have a difficult time understanding the Pope’s teaching.
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It’s just that what he said sounds so absolute. I mean, he said “every living creature” not just ‘you former Catholics out there’. And then he said that they had to be “subject to the Roman Pontiff”. That seems to exclude Protestants, whom, as EmeraldWings so helpfully pointed out, are saved.

Is there somewhere where I could read what else he said?
 
There is also a scriptural response to this from Our Lord Himself when He said.

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:13-14[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Luke 13:23-24[/bibledrb]
 
MarysGirls said:
I’m discussing Catholic teachings with a Protestant and he says that the Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. I thought I understood this, now I’m not sure. It seems like one pope says one thing, while the Catechism says another thing, and the Church Fathers say something totally different. 😦

For instance, Pope Boniface VIII said in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D.1302), “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

I don’t get it. I thought Protestants were saved too, but this seems to condemn them. I mean, Catholicism is either “absolutely necessary” or it isn’t.

Can anyone help me understand this? :confused:
Click to expand...
The Bull was written in 1302 when every Christian was Catholic. There were no Protestants. The Bull speaks about two swords because the Pope was in a serious dispute with Catholic King Philip IV who had refused to allow French Bishops to travel to Rome and had imprisoned one Bishop and accused him of treason.
The Pope is simply saying in 1302 that everyone, even kings, are subject to the vicar of Christ.How does this apply today with Protestants?

I would ask your Protestant friend if it is necessary to believe in Christ to be saved and he would say yes. Is it therefore necessary to be a member of the body of Christ to be saved? He would say yes. Therefore he believes that outside the body of Christ there is no salvation. He believes exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.
What he fails to grasp is that the Catholic Church IS the Body of Christ. There is no other body. Because of his baptism he is a member of the Body of Christ and therefore a member of the Catholic Church. His denomination is not the Body of Christ but the members are if they are baptized.
Because he rejects the teachings of the Catholic Church he has separated himself from full membership yet retains an attachment to the Church because of his baptism.

He does not realize it but he believes in heresies such as faith alone, once saved always saved, denial of purgatory, denial of the Eucharist, denial of the necessity of baptism,denial of the Catholic Church established by Christ.

A couple of scriptures to give him. Matthew 18:15-18. He believes in heretical teachings. Would he listen to the Church on these matters? If not then he has placed himself outside the Church and God will judge those outside the Church.

1 Cor 5:12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside
 
MarysGirls said:
I’m discussing Catholic teachings with a Protestant and he says that the Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. I thought I understood this, now I’m not sure. It seems like one pope says one thing, while the Catechism says another thing, and the Church Fathers say something totally different. 😦

For instance, Pope Boniface VIII said in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D.1302), “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

I don’t get it. I thought Protestants were saved too, but this seems to condemn them. I mean, Catholicism is either “absolutely necessary” or it isn’t.

Can anyone help me understand this? :confused:
Click to expand...
“If one is a Christian at all, one is in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that ‘outside the Church, there is no salvation.’ … To talk about salvation “outside the Church” is like talking about swimming outside the water.” – Mark Shea
 
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