confused about Transubstantiation...

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distracted said:
not if he disagrees w/ what i said… that is NOT what Ratzinger said… You are putting words in his mouth as you seem to be doing w/ me… well, that’ls lovely… and waht makes you think you know better than i do? I have been studying Catholicism and her saints, etc… for many yrs… and i dare say i have spent more time in the Real Presence, the Best Teacher of All than you have… i dare say this because very few catholics spend much time There… Usually when i go to be with Him i am completely ALONE (human-wise)

and not everyone in the Church who teaches… teaches correctly…

i do not follow men when they say things that clearly contradict what Jesus said.
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You are partially right. I did not put words in Ratzingers mouth, I interpreted what he said.
But, what makes you think you spend more time with our Lord? I visit our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament whenever I can! We musn’t boast though, how much we visit.
Oneofthewomen said:
Loyal Views,
There was a problem with me quoting something “distracted” said.
In your last quote, it looks like I am saying what was actually said by “distracted”.
Just wanted to clarify (see posts #46, 47 & 50)!
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I am so sorry, I didn’t notice!. Me culpa, please forgive me.
 
PJM said:
Your “correct” without being right!

In that Jesus is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity “God represented by Jesus Christ” is Present in the Echarist. However “God” the Trinity remains everywhere, always.

See my next post for THE REST OF THE STORY

God Bless, Pat
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you think i don’t know this?? i haven’t lived in a vacuum all my life… (just the last several yrs maybe… when i am not in t he Church) 😃

anyhow… God is God… the Son is God… the Holy Spirit is God… and the Father… all of them…

What is special about the Real Presence is that it is There (and only There) that i feel… how do i say this… well, for one thing, i feel the beliefs that i am taught by the Church… if that makes sense… Example: the Church teaches that all human life is sacred… there is no such thing as an unimportant human being…well, It is only when i am in the Real PResence that i feel this truth… that i feel the full weight of this truth… with no doubts whatsover… concerning myself, in particular… I have had problems w/ my family members (seroius problems) and others and so, this is a BIG thing to me… to feel that I matter to God… very much

You can know such things in your head but your heart can be arguing with that information… and VEHEMENTLY!!! As someone once said “The longest journey you’ll ever take is the one between your head and your heart”

the will of God is done through JESUS… as per Isaiah (50 something?)
 
PJM said:
HERE IS THE ACTUAL TEXT AND WHT HE SAID! NOTE IT IS A FAR DIFFERENT MSSAGE THAN “QUOTED” IN EARILER POST:blush:🤷

A literal German-English translation of the last chapter (Chapter IV) of Fr. Joseph Ratzinger’s Die sakramentale Begründung christlicher Existenz, the transcript of an excerpt of a four-hour lecture given by Fr. Ratzinger in Salzburg, Austria, in 1965.

With these perspectives we have automatically returned to the starting point of our reflections. What in fact – in this manner we can now ask again – does the man do who celebrates the divine service of the Church, the sacraments of Jesus Christ? ***He does not abandon himself to the naive idea that God, the Omnipresent One, lives only ***at this place in space which is designated by the tabernacle in the church. This would already contradict the most superficial understanding of the dogmatic statement content *, ***because the species of the Eucharist is not the presence of God in general * but the presence of the man Jesus Christ, which refers to * the horizontal historically-bound character of the divine encounter of man. *****He who goes to church and celebrates her sacraments does not do so, either, if he understands everything correctly, because he thinks the spiritual God is in need of material * media in order to touch the spirit of man. He does so, rather, because he knows that as man he can only encounter God in a human way; but in a human way means: in the form of fellow-man-ship , of incarnation, of historicity. And he does so because he knows that as man he cannot himself direct when God has to show Himself to him, that he is, rather, the recipient, who is dependent upon the given and not-to-be-produced-at-one’s-own-authority power, which represents the sign of God’s sovereign freedom, who determines the manner of his presence for himself.

Pat

this is the part i have a problem with… haven’t read the rest of your post yet cuz this stopped me… i just can’t believe the pope would say such a thing… I will now go and try to finish reading it… but i am… not in a good mood…

because the species of the Eucharist is not the presence of God in general * but the presence of the man* Jesus Christ, which refers to * the horizontal historically-bound character of the divine encounter of man

there is not the man Jesus and the divine Jesus… They are ONE… can’t separate his natures like that*
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this is another thing i dont agree with - not one bit:

**he [man] knows that as man he can only encounter God in a human way; but in a human way means: in the form of fellow-man-ship , of incarnation, of historicity. And he does so because he knows that as man he cannot himself direct when God has to show Himself to him, that he is, rather, the recipient, who is dependent upon the given and not-to-be-produced-at-one’s-own-authority power,

i do not find God through man only or even primarily, as this quotation seems to say… i find God in Jesus and Jesus’ Presence is in the Church…

i never thought of it this way b4, but in a way, man DOES “control” how that Presence will be shown to man… because the priest has Mass at a certain time… etc… so i dont u/stand that last sentence… “not-to-be-produced-at-one’s-own-authority power”

If someone other than the pope said this… but even so… he is not God**
 
Distracted, please be careful as you continue. Many of your posts seem to toe the line of forum rules, especially with regard to church clergy.
distracted said:
scream all you want… i disagree w/ both JP II and this pope… so far … i am still reading and researching cuz what i’ve read could have been taken out of context… but so far… doesn’t look good…

i never used to follow JP II… wasn’t into spiritual matters like i am now whne i was younger… so i have a lot of catching up to do… but one thing we all know is that he kissed the Koran… and apparently he said that all religions are great… also said something about how salvation can be achieved through other religions… thro means other than Christ… :eek: This is NOT biblical, to say the least…
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I believe you are taking the actions and words of JP II out of context. Paragraphs 839-845 of the Cathechism should give you adequate context to understand.

Bottom line is that God desires all mankind to be saved, which leads me to this post:
distracted said:
yes, God is everywhere… but from my best information, most people end up in Hell… so how is it that so many miss the boat if God is “Everywhere”???
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Where did you get the information that most people end up in Hell?

If, as the Church teaches, we are saved by our faith, then all who believe should be able to go to Heaven. We may have to endure some punishment for our sins before we get there (purgatory) but those who have faith surely will be in Heaven.

Just because God is everywhere does not mean that we always recognize Him. The Bible provides ample evidence of that. Jesus walked amongst the Jews, yet they did not know God even though they looked into His eyes.

Moses, at first, did not recognize God in the burning bush.

Yes, God is everywhere, but that does not mean we always see Him. Only the faithful departed have received the gift of the Beatific Vision.
 
BryanM27 said:
Distracted, please be careful as you continue. Many of your posts seem to toe the line of forum rules, especially with regard to church clergy.
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i wish posters would explain what they are talking about… What quote of mine are you referring to? i dont have time to go back and read every single one to try to find it…
I believe you are taking the actions and words of JP II out of context. Paragraphs 839-845 of the Cathechism should give you adequate context to understand.
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I will do that soon
Bottom line is that God desires all mankind to be saved, which leads me to this post:
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i have read the whole Bible and the Catechism… and many other Catholic books… i know this… but God’s will is not done on this earth… by very many people… and those who do His will… are thwarted over and over and over… If you don’t see this, then either you are very young and/or blind or something… or m aybe you have lived in an ivory tower all your life and have never been through much… “icky” stuff…?
Where did you get the information that most people end up in Hell?
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experience… the Bible… the Real Presence… observations of human behavior… the saitns… Jesus (St Mt 7:13 and 21… St Lk 13;24… ) etc…
If, as the Church teaches, we are saved by our faith, then all who believe should be able to go to Heaven.
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agreed… .everyone is able to … but everyone is not going to because able or not… men like to do their own thing… not God’s…
We may have to endure some punishment for our sins before we get there (purgatory) but those who have faith surely will be in Heaven.
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Just because God is everywhere does not mean that we always recognize Him. The Bible provides ample evidence of that. Jesus walked amongst the Jews, yet they did not know God even though they looked into His eyes.
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Moses, at first, did not recognize God in the burning bush.
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Yes, God is everywhere, but that does not mean we always see Him. Only the faithful departed have received the gift of the Beatific Vision.
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i feel the presence of God all the time… but when i then go into the Real PResence of Christ… i see things that i do not and cannot see anywhere else… i see how terrible sin is… for one… I see many things that i coiuld never begin to put into words… but mostly i see that my soul… resists certain words of Christ… witout intending to… yet ALL impurities such as this need to be purified from my soul b4 i can enter Heaven… and not many people spend much time with Jesus in the RP… so how are they going to know Jesus… or let Him know them? In one psg in the bible where Jesus rejects certain people… (they can’t get into Heavne) He says “Depart from you, i know now from whence you come.” or something like that… I can find it and post it tomorrow… but anyhow… i often wonder if He says this cuz people do not spend time with Him in His Church… too busy making $$$, dealing with humans…and etc… just a thought…
 
Catechism 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

***to Jews belong the “sonship”?

this statement is vague at best…

Jesus is the Son… so… since Jews reject Jesus… uh… dont get it…***
 
distracted said:
i wish posters would explain what they are talking about… What quote of mine are you referring to? i dont have time to go back and read every single one to try to find it…

i have read the whole Bible and the Catechism… and many other Catholic books… i know this… but God’s will is not done on this earth… by very many people… and those who do His will… are thwarted over and over and over… If you don’t see this, then either you are very young and/or blind or something… or m aybe you have lived in an ivory tower all your life and have never been through much… “icky” stuff…?

experience… the Bible… the Real Presence… observations of human behavior… the saitns… Jesus (St Mt 7:13 and 21… St Lk 13;24… ) etc… agreed… .everyone is able to … but everyone is not going to because able or not… men like to do their own thing… not God’s…

i feel the presence of God all the time… but when i then go into the Real PResence of Christ… i see things that i do not and cannot see anywhere else… i see how terrible sin is… for one… I see many things that i coiuld never begin to put into words… but mostly i see that my soul… resists certain words of Christ… witout intending to… yet ALL impurities such as this need to be purified from my soul b4 i can enter Heaven… and not many people spend much time with Jesus in the RP… so how are they going to know Jesus… or let Him know them? In one psg in the bible where Jesus rejects certain people… (they can’t get into Heavne) He says “Depart from you, i know now from whence you come.” or something like that… I can find it and post it tomorrow… but anyhow… i often wonder if He says this cuz people do not spend time with Him in His Church… too busy making $$$, dealing with humans…and etc… just a thought…
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distracted,

I am referring to post #71

For me, part of my problem in understanding where you are coming from is evidenced in your first 2 comments, I find them particulally judgemental.
I am not blind to the fact that there is evil in the world, and that many times people seem to act in ways that I might not think are “right”,
but I can not presume to know what is in their hearts, that is between them and God. Yes, I have a duty to teach (in a kind and charitable maner),
but ultimately, what others do is not my problem.

Regarding how you feel during your time with the Real Presence,
it is wonderful that you experience such graces.
However, not everyone feels the it same way. We are called to pray as we can.
To say that because someone does not practice Eucharisic Adoration does not know Christ is exactly the myth that Benedict XVI is trying to dispel in the letter that we have been referring to.

Yes, spending time with the Real Presence is a wonderful way to foster an intimate relationship with God the Father through Jesus, His son,
BUT it is not the ONLY WAY!
 
Oneofthewomen said:
distracted,

I am referring to post #71

For me, part of my problem in understanding where you are coming from is evidenced in your first 2 comments, I find them particulally judgemental.
I am not blind to the fact that there is evil in the world, and that many times people seem to act in ways that I might not think are “right”,
but I can not presume to know what is in their hearts, that is between them and God. Yes, I have a duty to teach (in a kind and charitable maner),
but ultimately, what others do is not my problem.

Regarding how you feel during your time with the Real Presence,
it is wonderful that you experience such graces.
However, not everyone feels the it same way. We are called to pray as we can.
To say that because someone does not practice Eucharisic Adoration does not know Christ is exactly the myth that Benedict XVI is trying to dispel in the letter that we have been referring to.

Yes, spending time with the Real Presence is a wonderful way to foster an intimate relationship with God the Father through Jesus, His son,
BUT it is not the ONLY WAY!
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well, i disagree…

For me, part of my problem in understanding where you are coming from is evidenced in your… comments, I find them particulally judgemental
 
distracted said:
well, i disagree…

For me, part of my problem in understanding where you are coming from is evidenced in your… comments, I find them particulally judgemental
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It is fine that you disagree,
but the Church does not share your views, and I am bound to follow the Church.

You asked people to explain what they were talking about.
I felt I did that in a kind and charitable manner.
If you disagree with that, I am sorry.

I thought that you were looking for dialogue and answers, maybe I am mistaken.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
It is fine that you disagree,
but the Church does not share your views, and I am bound to follow the Church.

You asked people to explain what they were talking about.
I felt I did that in a kind and charitable manner.
If you disagree with that, I am sorry.

I thought that you were looking for dialogue and answers, maybe I am mistaken.
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i dont answer ad hominem…

which, by the way, shows when someone has lost an argument or has nothing to say in rebuttal… they “ad hominate”… 😃
 
Distracted, what I was referring to is a general attitude that appears in all of your posts. As someone else already mentioned, you seem to have opened this thread with a legitimate question only so that you could take pot-shots at the Holy Father and his predecessor.

If that is not the case, then I apologize. But you should be aware that this is how your posts have been perceived by others.
 
BryanM27 said:
Distracted, what I was referring to is a general attitude that appears in all of your posts. As someone else already mentioned, you seem to have opened this thread with a legitimate question only so that you could take pot-shots at the Holy Father and his predecessor.

If that is not the case, then I apologize. But you should be aware that this is how your posts have been perceived by others.
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all i care about is truth…

and i have said nothing that i should be ashamed of…

i dont know why 1/2 the posters @ CAF think they need to help raise other posters, as it were…

my perception is that many posters are just trying to control others and/or make it seem that they are superior somehow… better Christians, better educated… better whatever… gets tiresome
 
distracted said:
all i care about is truth…

and i have said nothing that i should be ashamed of…

i dont know why 1/2 the posters @ CAF think they need to help raise other posters, as it were…

my perception is that many posters are just trying to control others and/or make it seem that they are superior somehow… better Christians, better educated… better whatever… gets tiresome
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I can assure that is not my intent, but I do feel it is my duty as a member of this forum to help foster a civil debate and prevent personal attacks of any kind.

I’m not saying you’ve done that, or even intended to do that. But as I said, in reading your previous posts you have, in my opinion, been walking right along the line. Hence why I gave you a polite warning. It is an unfortunate truth of any written communication that our tone does not translate the way we actually intend it to.

Just please be mindful of that fact when you post.

That applies to everyone! 👍

Now as far as you being interested in the truth, I applaud you for that. Please remember that context is as important as the words that were said.

Take this example of a US Marine Corps officer going through survival training:

1st Lt. Nathan Fick was captured during his S.E.R.E training. He refused to answer any questions from his captors. They brought in an unfamiliar face who posed as a member of some Red Cross-type group. The interviewer asked yes/no questions about the treatment that Fick was receiving (food, water, etc.) and Fick answered with head movements.

During the after-action review, Fick was shown the video from that interview. The questions in the video were things like “Do you think the United States is evil?” Without the background, we lose understanding. All they did in that exercise was voice-overs and it completely changed the context of the interview.

So while I understand you have difficulty with the statements and actions of JP II and of Benedict, please do try and find the full context of the interview/speech before you jump to conclusions.
 
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