confused and greatly troubled

[sticknstring73]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

 

[gracepoole]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

I think it depends on the parish you’re attending. Some parishes do include problematic practices, though I think these are far fewer than some might imagine. One of the beauties of the Church is that we can attend both the OF and the EF. Only you can assess whether your parish is engaging in problematic practices. If it is, maybe it’s something you can speak with your pastor about? Sometimes what we assume to be illicit actually isn’t. It’s just an annoyance. Have you spoken about your concerns with any of the clergy at your parish?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). **I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years **(please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

As a priest, I can say that if someone came to visit with me about liturgy or their concerns or questions, they would find my door open on the one hand. If, on the other, their initial premises were the four I put in bold…“a lot of concern” about the Church in its entirety, many doubts about the last 50 years – in other words an indictment of the needed reforms that issued from the council, then proceeded to question if the Mass and sacraments I celebrated were “even valid” and if there was continuity between the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church…well, no, I dare that conversation would not be a protracted one and that most priests, as would I, would take umbrage.

I don’t think many of my brother priests would find the question “Is what you do even valid?” to be a launching point for dialogue.

 

[Beryllos]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

I think you should get back to basics. Love God. Love your neighbor. Be the light of the world. Care for those in need. Spread the Good News. Pray. Discern. Be at peace.

Why are you so concerned with liturgy and its validity? Trust our pastors and bishops to look after such things.

 

[HungerNThirst4R]

Why not try another Novus Ordo Parish?

 

[CactusVsBaloon]

Why not try another Novus Ordo Parish?

Well because as he said, he`s afraid N O is a illicit mass?

 

[gracepoole]

As a priest, I can say that if someone came to visit with me about liturgy or their concerns or questions, they would find my door open on the one hand. If, on the other, their initial premises were the four I put in bold…“a lot of concern” about the Church in its entirety, many doubts about the last 50 years – in other words an indictment of the needed reforms that issued from the council, then proceeded to question if the Mass and sacraments I celebrated were “even valid” and if there was continuity between the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church…well, no, I dare that conversation would not be a protracted one and that most priests, as would I, would take umbrage.

I don’t think many of my brother priests would find the question “Is what you do even valid?” to be a launching point for dialogue.

I would really hope that a priest would patiently explain why what he does is valid. A student recently complained about a specific approach taken in class. I felt myself bristle at first. But I did not allow my ego to get involved – instead, I simply and calmly explained the rationale for course content and approach. It’s up to the student to determine whether she accepts this explanation, of course, but at least I gave it a shot.

 

[Divine3]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).
.

The internet can be helpful but if you do not know how to find the right answers to the true teachings of the church, then it can lead you to confusion. Why not get your own CCC - Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican 11 book – do a little reading – take time to pray – hang in with church because leaving the church just because you have questions takes you out of the arena and out of the game immediately – Its like giving up on the first run around the track. Questions are normal and answers are there . Will pray for you …

 

[lax16]

As a priest, I can say that if someone came to visit with me about liturgy or their concerns or questions, they would find my door open on the one hand. If, on the other, their initial premises were the four I put in bold…“a lot of concern” about the Church in its entirety, many doubts about the last 50 years – in other words an indictment of the needed reforms that issued from the council, then proceeded to question if the Mass and sacraments I celebrated were “even valid” and if there was continuity between the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church…well, no, I dare that conversation would not be a protracted one and that most priests, as would I, would take umbrage.

I don’t think many of my brother priests would find the question “Is what you do even valid?” to be a launching point for dialogue.

Sometimes in our confusion and frustration our words come out wrong, even to a priest. I find at work and in my personal life, it is best to try to meet people where they are at, establish that we are even talking about the same thing, then proceed from there. Very often there are misconceptions that can be cleared up within a few minutes.

Sometimes people are dealing with other issues that can be driving the frustration and confusion that can manifest itself as anger. Scrupulosity, mental illness, depression, loneliness, grief…are some that come to mind.

I had a friend that would rail against the Catholic Church and how our priest said this wrong and did that wrong. Finally it came out that she felt shunned by the DRE. In actuality, the DRE was wrong and had a history of doing this to other people. My friend has left the Catholic Church and now attends a small bible church.

In my opinion, this type of misunderstanding is most often the case when a person is questioning the Catholic Church.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

Do you think the apostles would recognize the Latin mass???

Of course not at least not completely.

The style and language of mass has changed over history.

The point being, do you believe the church has authority? Do you believe the church has the power to bind and loose?

If you do, then trust in those dogmas,

If you don’t have faith in the dogmas on church authority, then a mass in Latin won’t help you. You need something far more.

Namely, trust and humility.

Sorry to be blunt, but let’s not beat around the bush…the idea that the church failed in the 60’s has more in common with Protestants than anything Catholic.

 

[Tarpeian]

Lately I have been thinking that I should give up going to my local parish with its n.o. mass (I go daily) and just attend a tlm further away (would attend weekly). I have a lot of concerns about our church as a whole and I am starting to have many doubts about the last fifty or so years (please PLEASE do not comment in any way that will get this banned).

When I try to talk about it with people, fellow parishioners, friends, they are either in complete denial or foaming at the mouth about it. Politics isn’t the only place that has lost its moderates it seems.

My concerns range from is what I am participating in even valid? Is it truly catholicism as my grandparents would recognize it? I’m not sure how to even write this here because I do not want to be banned or get this thread deleted.

I’m not even sure how to communicate what I want to ask so I’m sorry if this seems a bit erratic. When I look things up online trying to address these concerns I find a lot of schismatic material, it just feels too far for me right now.

If you are going to say something the least controversial, please pm me.

Do you visit any other sites, blogs, or forums? Have you read any documents of Vatican II? If so have you compared /contrasted them to prior documents, encyclicals, etc.? This might be a good place to start.

 

[sticknstring73]

Do you think the apostles would recognize the Latin mass???

Of course not at least not completely.

The style and language of mass has changed over history.

The point being, do you believe the church has authority? Do you believe the church has the power to bind and loose?

If you do, then trust in those dogmas,

If you don’t have faith in the dogmas on church authority, then a mass in Latin won’t help you. You need something far more.

Namely, trust and humility.

Sorry to be blunt, but let’s not beat around the bush…the idea that the church failed in the 60’s has more in common with Protestants than anything Catholic.

Of course the apostles wouldn’t recognize the mass they were Jews. I trust in the authority but I am losing trust in the men. If we cannot trust them, if we do not believe their every move is guided by the Holy Spirit, can we believe in their power to bind and loose? I’m just not sure anymore.

Can you please clarify what you mean about the idea of the church failing in the 60’s and protestants?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Of course the apostles wouldn’t recognize the mass they were Jews. I trust in the authority but I am losing trust in the men. If we cannot trust them, if we do not believe their every move is guided by the Holy Spirit, can we believe in their power to bind and loose? I’m just not sure anymore.

Can you please clarify what you mean about the idea of the church failing in the 60’s and protestants?

No the apostles were Christians. The Latin mass Did not come about for hundreds of years.

I am sure that when the Latin mass was instituted, people balked at it. They said, “this is different I don’t like it, it’s not what we’ve done before” etc…

It’s the same today. Those people were wrong then, and the people clinging to the Latin mass to the point of saying anything new is wrong are just as silly and full of selfishness. It’s all about “me”.

It is supposed to be all about God.

All about the church united under him.

The church is the one responsible for leading the faithful. Even if they are wrong in this case, that is on them, not you. We are required to “submit to the bishop as to Jesus Christ” (St Ignatius ofAntioch)

You don’t have to like it, but Catholics must. It’s about something far grander than us as individuals.

Protestants are more individualistic. They care about themselves and find a church that lines up with what they believe. No submission involved. They also deny the authority of the church over matters of faith and morals.

One that rejects the church on grounds that they know what’s best, does what the founder of every Protestant movement has done.

 

[sticknstring73]

No the apostles were Christians. The Latin mass Did not come about for hundreds of years.

I am sure that when the Latin mass was instituted, people balked at it. They said, “this is different I don’t like it, it’s not what we’ve done before” etc…

It’s the same today. Those people were wrong then, and the people clinging to the Latin mass to the point of saying anything new is wrong are just as silly and full of selfishness. It’s all about “me”.

It is supposed to be all about God.

All about the church united under him.

The church is the one responsible for leading the faithful. Even if they are wrong in this case, that is on them, not you. We are required to “submit to the bishop as to Jesus Christ” (St Ignatius ofAntioch)

You don’t have to like it, but Catholics must. It’s about something far grander than us as individuals.

Protestants are more individualistic. They care about themselves and find a church that lines up with what they believe. No submission involved. They also deny the authority of the church over matters of faith and morals.

One that rejects the church on grounds that they know what’s best, does what the founder of every Protestant movement has done.

The apostles were good Jews like Jesus. When Jesus ascends they go to the temple, like good Jews, to praise God. Maybe afterwards their Christians but not while Jesus is alive.

The Latin mass is only, I believe, a few hundred years old. But let that sink in a few hundred years. I’ll say no more on this.

I am submitting believe me I am, but why are the errors left uncorrected or uncensored?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The apostles were good Jews like Jesus. When Jesus ascends they go to the temple, like good Jews, to praise God. Maybe afterwards their Christians but not while Jesus is alive.

The Latin mass is only, I believe, a few hundred years old. But let that sink in a few hundred years. I’ll say no more on this.

I am submitting believe me I am, but why are the errors left uncorrected or uncensored?

After Jesus ascended, they met on the Lords day. They were persecuted from going to temple/synagogue, although perhaps they did until it was destroyed in AD 90.

By 100AD they had liturgical norms as evidenced by St Justin Martyr and others.

The mass as you find it in Latin today was codified about 500 years ago but it changed from Greek or Aramaic to Latin far earlier than that.

It was the ancient practice of the church for the mass to be said in the common language. In fact this is even why it switched to Latin.

I am glad you are submitting, and it sounds like you are but struggling. I’d encourage you to continue in prayer. There is nothing wrong with going to the Latin mass (extraordinary form) but there is a problem if you believe the novus ordo is in error or that the church somehow has lost its authority. When you say the novus ordo is invalid, then you are saying the church has no authority.

I will also state, lots of liturgical abuse slipped into many parishes over the last few decades. This is not the fault of the novus ordo, but individuals in parishes.

It perhaps might help you to read the document of the second Vatican council regarding the liturgy.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

 

[Divine3]

I am submitting believe me I am, but why are the errors left uncorrected or uncensored?

Maybe you might like to be a little more blunt regarding the errors you are struggling with. What are you seeing that is bothering you at this time ?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Maybe you might like to be a little more blunt regarding the errors you are struggling with. What are you seeing that is bothering you at this time ?

Great question! I was about to ask the same.

 

[Divine3]

Joh S so now we wait and see what are the errors --

 

[Tarpeian]

Do you think the apostles would recognize the Latin mass???

Of course not at least not completely.

The style and language of mass has changed over history.

The point being, do you believe the church has authority? Do you believe the church has the power to bind and loose?

If you do, then trust in those dogmas,

If you don’t have faith in the dogmas on church authority, then a mass in Latin won’t help you. You need something far more.

Namely, trust and humility.

Sorry to be blunt, but let’s not beat around the bush…the idea that the church failed in the 60’s has more in common with Protestants than anything Catholic.

The Mass has changed this is true. Keep in mind that The Liturgy in the EF grew organically over the centuries. The Novus Ordo Liturgy was a top down change.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The Mass has changed this is true. Keep in mind that The Liturgy in the EF grew organically over the centuries. The Novus Ordo Liturgy was a top down change.

Perhaps, but how else could it develop? Are you saying it would have been better for people to start changing on their own parish by parish, diocese by diocese?

Much of the development of the liturgy after Gregory the great was top down, if not exclusively top down.