Confused by this protestant

[Kliska]

First let us tackle the matter of mortal sin. What many people miss is that the thing that makes a sin mortal is less about the object and more about knowledge and will. If you knowingly and willfully do that which deeply offends God…then you are rejecting God and His plan of salvation for you. This is why something is a mortal sin.

Now to the issue of “keeping of days” being grave matter and Paul’s statement on the subject. As someone above already said, the Church takes the commandments seriously. She also takes the sacraments - given to us by God - seriously. She teaches us of their importance and warns us of the consequences of our taking them lightly or ignoring them. She does not force us to abide by them.

So - based on the above, no one is “judging” anyone on the “keeping of days”. We are simply informed of their importance - the graces available by properly attending to them and the consequences of failing to properly attend to them.

Hope this helps you understand the Catholic view on the matter

Peace
James

I’ve quoted the bits of the CCC, so that I’m not presenting a straw man. I do understand the teachings and have shown right where they come from. The part that those of us not in the RCC see is that there is indeed a pronouncement of days and times and obligations to keep them. If one does not, then one needs to confess that, and if someone tells a priest they missed mass for an invalid reason, then that priest is going to tell them to confess, and the priest can retain or absolve the sin. That is a judgment about days and times and the sin on one’s soul.

Obviously the RCC disagrees, I’m just sharing a perspective on it that makes such things a question for those looking into Catholicism.

Grace and Peace,
K

 

[rcwitness]

The Sabath was replaced by the celebration of the “Lord’s Day” and the Lord’s Supper.

St Paul expresses

1 Corinthians 11:33-34(RSVCE)

33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another— 34 if any one is hungry, let him eat at home—lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.

Hebrews 10:24-25 (RSVCE)

24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

The essense of the Church’s Teaching, is that when someone willfully refuses to come together, simply based on the absence of Charity, for the celebration of their salvation, they have put enmity between themselves and their Savior.

Consider this Teaching in context of other obligations regarding Mass.

The Precepts of the Catholic Church

1. You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor.

We must “sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord” (Sunday), as well as the principal feast days, known as Catholic holy days of obligation. This requires attending Mass, “and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.”

1. You shall confess your sins at least once a year.

We must prepare for the Eucharist by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). This sacrament “continues Baptism’s work of conversion and forgiveness.”

1. You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season.

This “guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.”

1. You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church.

“The fourth precept ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.” See below for more about fasting & abstinence.

1. You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.

“The fifth precept means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”

(These quotations are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its section about the Precepts of the Catholic Church (#2041-3).)

 

[DebChris]

Something that I should have added to the above…

Kliska - Something the protestant needs to keep in mind that the Catholic mass is something quite different from many protestant services. At the Catholic mass Christ is physically present in the Eucharist…Body Blood Soul and divinity. Therefore as Catholics we view this as something quite important and unique.
We go to mass to physically commune with and to consume the Body and Blood of our Lord - just as He himself commanded us to do,

I may not be explaining this very well…but it speaks to something profoundly different than many protestant beliefs and services - and might help you to understand why the Church teaches as she does…

Peace
James

As Catholics, our desire should be to spend time with our Lord. Our relationship with Jesus Christ is not merely a personal relationship, although we are indeed called to that relationship. It is also a communal relationship. We gather together as a community to celebrate the gift of salvation.
It’s easy to get caught up in the “should and should nots of Catholicism.” Our God is a loving and merciful God. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is a healing Sacrament. As Pope Francis has been saying, the Church is a “field hospital for sinners.” None of us claims to be anything else. The Eucharist nourishes and heals, removing all traces of venial sin. It brings us to holiness and oneness with God.
A mortal sin requires full knowledge and a willing turning away from God. God always desires our repentance and calls for our return.
This constant call of repentance and conversion runs throughout Scripture. As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit within us to guide and lead us.
Does God want any of us to be lost? Of course not.
Does the Church really ask that much when it asks us to come together once a week to spend time with each other in the presence of our Savior? When it makes it possible to receive our Savior on a daily basis?
Is God so heartless that they he does not understand extenuating circumstances, such as illness, bad weather, or a lack of transportation to the nearest church? It is God who knows the desires of the heart, and as Catholics we leave all judgement to Him.

What happens many times with non-Catholics who question Catholic teaching is that they get caught up in a single verse of scripture. From that single verse they question everything, especially anything that has to do with authority. The Bible needs to be read in its entirety in order to see the overall picture of salvation as it unfolds.

 

[thegreypiper]

Catholics celebrate the Passover and still call it Passover. It’s only in English and German speaking countries that you find the term Easter.

Likewise in Orthodox Churches, “Easter” is not a rare usage, but it is certainly a casual or colloquial usage. “Pascha” is the “real” name for the holiday!

 

[robwar]

Ok, so today I posted on my Facebook that I am feeling much anxiety about deciding what to give people as Christmas gifts. I didn’t think this would cause an argument, but it did.

This person commented that I should “read about Christmas in the Bible” That this person’s family has decided not to celebrate Christmas. I let her know that I can’t just overlook Christmas, it being a Holy Day of Obligation for me and that I have read that giving gifts can represent the gifts given to Christ at his birth. That it wasn’t wrong to give gifts. Anyway, this is where it got kind of weird. I have family of different protestant back grounds and I’ve never heard the things she was saying.

Here goes:
“I’m just as devoted to Jesus/Yeshua and God/Yah too.” I’ve never heard of God and Jesus being called differently. She said that since Jesus was Jewish she doesn’t celebrate man made holidays like Christmas and Easter. That they celebrate Passover.

With her saying that she is devoted to Jesus, I assume that she is a Christian. I have just never heard of a Christian deciding to forgo Christian holidays and celebrating Jewish ones.

Anyone can shed some light on this for me? Thanks!

She sounds like she is involved in a messianic Jewish group that is extreme. If she doesn’t believe in celebrating Christmas etc. then that is her choice but to say something to you while you are just asking about what to give other is basically none of her business or concern. I also find that rude to you. I would probably de friend her on Facebook.

 

[almostaengineer]

Ok, so today I posted on my Facebook that I am feeling much anxiety about deciding what to give people as Christmas gifts. I didn’t think this would cause an argument, but it did.

This person commented that I should “read about Christmas in the Bible”
Here goes:
“I’m just as devoted to Jesus/Yeshua and God/Yah too.”

She said that since Jesus was Jewish she doesn’t celebrate man made holidays like Christmas and Easter. That they celebrate Passover.

With her saying that she is devoted to Jesus, I assume that she is a Christian. I have just never heard of a Christian deciding to forgo Christian holidays and celebrating Jewish ones.

Anyone can shed some light on this for me? Thanks!

well you might look at the teachings of the 4 blood moons-- this is revelennt

because they occur on God’s calender - and festival days

• and not the roman calender-- which is what the catholic and christian people function –

hebrew roots people talk about it also–

the belief is that the God’s festible’s were done away with-- about the time of Constantine–

but bible prophecty blessing’s still function on the festival’s that God created

 

[DebChris]

The following from today’s Office of Readings seems to fit with this thread. It comes from a letter to Proba by St. Augustine.
In this faith, hope and love we pray always and with unwearied desire. However, at set times and seasons we also pray to God in words, so that by these signs we may instruct ourselves and mark the progress we have made in our desire, and spur ourselves to deepen it. The more fervent the desire, the more worthy will be its fruit.

 

[mvercimak]

I am quite familiar with this type of religious variation as I have a sister-in-law and her husband who are “Messianic Jews”. In fact her husband is a Rabbi in their faith. I have read some of their literature, listened to their sermons and discussed their beliefs with them. I have also been at their home to celebrate some of their holidays. They are very religious people who study their faith carefully. The problem I see in how they believe is that they seem, over time, gravitate more and more to the Jewish tradition and tend to align with the modern Jewish faith. The problem is that “modern” Judaism took a wrong turn at the time of Christ. Their cannon carefully eliminated the books of the Old Testament with explicit references to Christ and their theological writings were not just devoid of references to Christ but developed an anti Christian flavor. My in-laws began as atheists, dabbled in The Methodist and Lutheran Protestant theology, then became Born-Again Evangelicals, and now are Messianic Jews. I believe they are on a faith journey seeking truth. When this woman challenged you on Facebook, It may be that she subconsciously was testing the belief of her faith against yours. To the extent that you can give a reasonable compassionate defense of your faith you may be the instrument of God’s truth that she is still searching for.

 

[guanophore]

Well that’s great. Catholics celebrate the Passover and still call it Passover. It’s only in English and German speaking countries that you find the term Easter. You should mention that to them. Also the Nativity was historically connected also with and considered the continuation of the Jewish Festival of Lights (I am the Light of the world). And finally as has been pointed out Yeshua and Jesus are exactly the same name one in Aramaic and one in Greek. Another interesting fact most people don’t realize but in English the name Yesua is translated as Joshua (remember, Joshua fit the battle of Jericho?). So if you name your child Joshua you’re naming them Jesus.

I was wondering what a “man made holiday” is also. Your post got me thinking something else about teh Jewish Festival of lights. It was established after the Antiochean invasion, and the circumstances of the rededication of the temple are written in the book of Maccabees. We find this in John 10.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.

This feast, also called the Feast of Lights, was important enough for Jesus to make the pilgrimage to the Temple. In doing so, He ratified this “man made holiday” as well as the Deuterocanonical book in which it was recorded.

 

[guanophore]

I think that all is good, but on the flip side, the RCC has declared it a mortal sin if one misses mass. If one misses mass knowingly and deliberately and then passes away without perfect contrition, that, according to the RCC can and will send the person to Hell.

A mortal sin is a reflection of heart, mind, body and soul turned away from Christ. If one cannot be bothered to meet him down the street in the Eucharist, why would one be bothered to spend eternity with Him? God will not compel a person to spend even one hour with Him, and has allowed us the freedom to reject both that, and eternity.

 

[Kliska]

A mortal sin is a reflection of heart, mind, body and soul turned away from Christ. If one cannot be bothered to meet him down the street in the Eucharist, why would one be bothered to spend eternity with Him? God will not compel a person to spend even one hour with Him, and has allowed us the freedom to reject both that, and eternity.

That is indeed your perspective, esp. because of your view of the Eucharist and what partaking in it means. The point put forth was this it is in seeming contradiction with Paul’s strong command about not allowing anyone to judge you in according to certain things. You wouldn’t see a contradiction, but many do, especially those of us who don’t view Jesus’ teaching and Paul’s teaching on the Eucharist the same as you.

 

[rcwitness]

That is indeed your perspective, esp. because of your view of the Eucharist and what partaking in it means. The point put forth was this it is in seeming contradiction with Paul’s strong command about not allowing anyone to judge you in according to certain things. You wouldn’t see a contradiction, but many do, especially those of us who don’t view Jesus’ teaching and Paul’s teaching on the Eucharist the same as you.

That’s a big problem with the plethra of personal interpretations on the prophecy of Scripture.

But I see your point about not judging according to “certain things”. This is not such a case. This is the Church herself revealing what constitutes sin which can seperate us from God’s grace, Which specifically requires the willfull participation, or in the case of Mass, the deliberate lack of participation.

Think of it in terms of Jesus asking Peter to stay awake and pray with Him. Do you think Peter did not have remorse? So, I would compare neglecting to go to Mass falling short of the glory of God. You must remember, that the Church recognizes in all things the Measure who is Christ to which she learns what is grave.

Here is a snippet of James who I thought of from your reference to Paul.

James 4:17

“So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.”
All the requirements of mortal sin must be met for it to cause seperation from His grace, and lack of remorse keeps someone there.

 

[adf417]

That is indeed your perspective, esp. because of your view of the Eucharist and what partaking in it means. The point put forth was this it is in seeming contradiction with Paul’s strong command about not allowing anyone to judge you in according to certain things. You wouldn’t see a contradiction, but many do, especially those of us who don’t view Jesus’ teaching and Paul’s teaching on the Eucharist the same as you.

…and of all Christianity up until the reformation, and even some of the reformers.

Peace!!!

 

[DebChris]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”[John 6:52-58]

If I accept that Jesus is God, than I accept His words with the authority of God. If you read the Acts of the Apostles, you find that the newly formed communities submitted to teachings of the Apostles. St. Paul never teaches anything contrary to that in his letters. If I love somebody, or something, than I will spend as much time with that person as possible. There is a longing in the heart when you cannot spend time with them.
St. Augustine wrote, “My soul is restless until I rest in Thee.” We should desire to spend as much time with God as God wants to spend with us. What is one hour a week, unless illness, weather, or distance keeps you away?
Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

 

[guanophore]

That is indeed your perspective, esp. because of your view of the Eucharist and what partaking in it means. The point put forth was this it is in seeming contradiction with Paul’s strong command about not allowing anyone to judge you in according to certain things. You wouldn’t see a contradiction, but many do, especially those of us who don’t view Jesus’ teaching and Paul’s teaching on the Eucharist the same as you.

Agreed, of course. I just wanted to make the point that the term “obligation” throws people from the point of view of the freedom we have in Christ, but from the point of view that we owe Him our all in response to His giving His all to us, we become His bondslaves. We have religious duties and obligations in our service to Him, and it is the duty of the Church to guide us in what they are.

A heart that is living outside of the debt of gratitude has lost the sense of what Christ has done for them. The “obligation” does not rest upon a duty, rule, or law, but upon the natural outcome of our baptismal vows. If we are really ready to die with him, and be raised to newness of life with Him, then we will be willing to encounter Him in Eucharist. If one is not, then one likely has a heart that is not fully submitted to him, or joined to Him.

 

[Kliska]

Agreed, of course. I just wanted to make the point that the term “obligation” throws people from the point of view of the freedom we have in Christ, but from the point of view that we owe Him our all in response to His giving His all to us, we become His bondslaves. We have religious duties and obligations in our service to Him, and it is the duty of the Church to guide us in what they are.

A heart that is living outside of the debt of gratitude has lost the sense of what Christ has done for them. The “obligation” does not rest upon a duty, rule, or law, but upon the natural outcome of our baptismal vows. If we are really ready to die with him, and be raised to newness of life with Him, then we will be willing to encounter Him in Eucharist. If one is not, then one likely has a heart that is not fully submitted to him, or joined to Him.

Fervent believers, no matter the denomination or church, also agree that God is with us and in us every single day. Part of the issue that I have seen when so much heavy emphasis is placed on a special day is that the other days seem to get given to the world by a large majority of church goers, and the person concludes that because the one day is an obligation, the rest are not. I see a call in the NT for a total giving of all, including every day to the Lord to do as He wills with it, and to be aware of that fact.

Just as in Catholic/Orthodox tradition, I see just as many protestants that are Sunday Christians, and it is that type of thinking that I believe you guys are pointing out. As Christ is our Sabbath, and we are in Him, every day is a Sabbath, and we have interaction with Him directly every single day as we are in Him and He in us. As I pointed out in the past, those of us who are practicing our faith are much more in alignment despite denomination or church than those not practicing across believers. We have a similar philosophy even though it plays out differently given our different beliefs of things like the Lord’s Supper.

So, again, I’m not trying to dissuade anyone of their POV, I’m just trying to share a different one, and to get at the point of Paul’s admonition that was a pretty strong command, and to express the hesitation many have of going against what he taught.

 

[guanophore]

Fervent believers, no matter the denomination or church, also agree that God is with us and in us every single day.  Part of the issue  that I have seen when so much heavy emphasis is placed on a special day is that the other days seem to get given to the world by a large majority of church goers, and the person concludes that because the one day is an obligation, the rest are not.  I see a call in the NT for a total giving of all, including every day to the Lord to do as He wills with it, and to be aware of that fact.

This is well said, and it is a fact that there are many Catholics that only demonstrate their fatih by going to Mass on Sundays (if they even do that!). I grew up in a household like that, and was so dissolutioned by the time I was an adolescent I wandered off looking for some “real” Christains. I fell in with a teen Baptist fellowship that taught me how to read the Scriptures and to pray.

I think, though, it is not so much about the “day” as it is about the event. It so happens that, following the example of the early Christians and councils, we celebrate Mass on Sundays, but those of us who are able to go more often certainly do so. Since the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of the Catholic faith, a person who is avoidant is in serious trouble in their relationship with Christ.

As Christ is our Sabbath, and we are in Him, every day is a Sabbath, and we have interaction with Him directly every single day as we are in Him and He in us. As I pointed out in the past, those of us who are practicing our faith are much more in alignment despite denomination or church than those not practicing across believers. We have a similar philosophy even though it plays out differently given our different beliefs of things like the Lord’s Supper.

Yes, clearly we are all called to remain in our Sabbath Rest, who is Christ. Just as the ancient Hebrews sometimes felt constrained by the Sabbath regulations, there are Christians to day who chafe against entering the Sabbath rest dailly.

So, again, I’m not trying to dissuade anyone of their POV, I’m just trying to share a different one, and to get at the point of Paul’s admonition that was a pretty strong command, and to express the hesitation many have of going against what he taught.

Thanks for the dialogue.