Confused - Elijah's coming

[JRKH]

I think Elijah is a prophet from OT. Was the event of Elijah’s death documented?

Elijah’s “death” was not documented. Elijah was taken up to heaven on a “chariot of fire”. (2 Kings 2:11)

Peace
James

 

[NotWorthy]

Elijah’s “death” was not documented. Elijah was taken up to heaven on a “chariot of fire”. (2 Kings 2:11)

Peace
James

Correct. This is one of the reasons there is an empty chair at every Jewish Seder (in ancient Israel and even today). The Jews are still waiting for the return of Elijah. Little did they know, that they already missed him!

 

[JRKH]

Correct. This is one of the reasons there is an empty chair at every Jewish Seder (in ancient Israel and even today). The Jews are still waiting for the return of Elijah. ** Little did they know, that they already missed him**!

And then we are back to the original problem of how were the Jews to know that John was “Elijah” when John, in response ot a direct question, denied being Elijah or an Elijah “type”.

Can you say - vicious circle??

Peace
James

 

[alitaptap]

Elijah’s “death” was not documented. Elijah was taken up to heaven on a “chariot of fire”. (2 Kings 2:11)

I thought prophet Elijah did not encounter God in the mighty wind or in the earthquake or in the fire, but whistling of a gentle wind (see Kings 19:9-13).

Maybe Elijah of OT is the counter part of John the Baptist in NT. What do you think?

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought prophet Elijah did not encounter God in the mighty wind or in the earthquake or in the fire, but whistling of a gentle wind (see Kings 19:9-13).

Right Church. Wrong Pew!

You are right, but this incident happened in 1st Kings, and Elijah took his ride on the Chariot in 2nd Kings.

Maybe Elijah of OT is the counter part of John the Baptist in NT. What do you think?

This is called Typology. Elijah’s role in the Old Testament pre-figured John the Baptist’s role in the New Testament.

 

[Benadam]

Here’s a possibility.

John understood his vocation as fulfilling the prophecy " A voice cries in the wilderness…

He knew that for sure, but maybe didn’t know how, or if, his vocation also fulfilled the expectation of Elijah’s return. Jesus knew apparently but didn’t mention it untill after John’s death.

 

[alitaptap]

Right Church. Wrong Pew!

You are right, but this incident happened in 1st Kings, and Elijah took his ride on the Chariot in 2nd Kings.

Ops, I am supposed to post “I thought prophet Elijah did not encounter God in the mighty wind or in the earthquake or in the fire, but whistling of a gentle wind (see Kings 19:9-13).” here: Struggling to move from an absurd to an obedient life

 

[NotWorthy]

Ops, I am supposed to post “I thought prophet Elijah did not encounter God in the mighty wind or in the earthquake or in the fire, but whistling of a gentle wind (see Kings 19:9-13).” here: Struggling to move from an absurd to an obedient life

That is so ironic! I’m preparing a talk for an upcoming Acts Retreat. My topic is prayer, and woven throughout my talk is how I encounter God, in the knocking at my hotel door at 7:00am to see if I need towels (this helped me catch a flight home instead of oversleeping), in my cat waking me up because he’s hungry at 4:30am (this helped keep me from missing a presentation that I had to give to my management in Houston). God has come to me in this and various other ways… when all He really needed to do was give me a reliable alarm clock!

 

[alitaptap]

This is called Typology. Elijah’s role in the Old Testament pre-figured John the Baptist’s role in the New Testament.

I think the birth of John the Baptist can shed light on this.

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, and his wife Elizabeth. Both were just in the eyes of God, but they were old childless. One time, when Zechariah, do not be frightened; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth shall bear a son whom you shall name John. The spirit of Elijah will be upon him, to prepare for the Lord a people well-disposed.

Zechariah doubted because he was already old, so Gabriel remarked: You will be mute until the day these things take place, because you have not trusted my words.

Afterwards, his wife Elizabeth conceived and bore a son. When friends and relatives assembled for his circumcision, on the eighth day, Zechariah wrote in a tablet: His name is John.

At this moment his mouth was opened, he was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to say:* Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; he has come to his people and set them free. You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, to give his people forgiveness of their sins.*

 

[sinnerdexter]

Your wife Elizabeth shall bear a son whom you shall name John. The spirit of Elijah will be upon him, to prepare for the Lord a people well-disposed.

Reincarnation? What if it is an indisputable part of life and death cycle?

 

[Benadam]

Reincarnation? What if it is an indisputable part of life and death cycle?

Then the Incarnation makes no sense.

 

[Mailman]

Confused - - -
How can Jesus tell the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah when John himself said he was not??

If John’s testimony was the return of Elijah that was foretold, then why would he deny it when doing so would mislead people on who Jesus was?..

My question/concern then is, How could they be expected to “know him” when John himself denied it, one might even say lied, right to their faces and in response to a direct question???

Someone earlier said that Elijah will precede Christ at the second coming. So here again, will it be the literal Elijah or another Elijah “type”? How can we know which it will be since apparently the Jews were looking for a literal Elijah, but got an Elijah “type” who denied being Elijah….

John answered truthfully when he denied being Elijah. John was not the original Elijah. He was only a “type.” As the angel Gabriel said, John was to come “IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER of Elijah” (Luke 1:17). So, when Jesus said “Elijah has already come,” He did not mean the Elijah of old, but a type of Elijah has come in the person of John the Baptist.

But why did John not tell the Pharisees that he was a type of Elijah? And would the Jews have known that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah had John told them this? If you will notice, John’s answer revealed far more about his true identity and the prophecy he came to fulfill, than if he had merely said he was an Elijah type.

John tells the Pharisees: “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, [to] make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah” (John 1:23).

Here, John pointed to a specific prophecy [Isaiah 40:3] for which he came to fulfill. He was the one who would “make straight the way of the Lord” – in other words, prepare for His coming. If the Jews were to examine further the writings of the prophets, they would find a similar prophecy by Malachi which speaks of a “messenger” who shall prepare the way for the coming of the Lord, the “messenger of the covenant” (Mal. 3:1).

John’s answer clearly revealed who he was and specifically identified the prophecy he was fulfilling. Telling the Pharisees he was a type of Elijah would only mislead because it lacks specifics, and the prophecies say nothing about an Elijah “type” preceding the Messiah.

The Pharisees (they were the ones who asked the question) believed in some form of resurrection – that men would live again – by means of transmigration, or in a reincarnation. So, when they asked John whether he was Elijah, they were asking whether he was the reincarnated Elijah [Elijah in a different body]. In other words, the Elijah that the Pharisees were looking for [the “Elijah” in Mal. 4:5] would be anything but a literal Elijah reincarnated in a different body. If John had told them he was a “type” of Elijah, they would certainly have dismissed him as being insignificant and Jesus Christ as another “type” of Messiah – in other words, not the real one.

If the Jews could not see Jesus as the Messiah with John’s confession to being the “voice of one crying in the wilderness” nothing John would have said would have made them see the light. The problem really had to do with the Jews’ misunderstanding of the prophecies of the prophets concerning the Messiah. The Jews thought that when the Messiah comes, He will come only once and as a conquering king. They did not understand the part that says He will first come to die for the sin of men and then make a second coming to establish His Kingdom.

Christ’s disciples were no exception. Even after being personally taught by Christ for over 3 years they still did not understand these things. Notice that days before going into Jerusalem, after telling His disciples about what the prophets wrote about Him – of His suffering, death and resurrection – Christ’s disciples “understood none of these things” (Luke 18:31-34). They had no clue what Jesus was talking about!

Now, when they were about to set foot on Jerusalem, Jesus had to tell them a parable because “they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear” (Luke 19:11). They still did not get the picture. They must have been thinking that because the Scriptures say the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem (Ps. 2:6; Zec. 14:6; Mic. 4:1-2), that once Christ steps foot there, He will set up His kingdom right away and begin His rule. Just like all the Jews then, they thought the prophecies speak of only one coming.

Now, right after Christ’ resurrection, Christ’s followers still did not get it. On that road to Emmaus, the resurrected Christ had to “[expound] unto them (to the two believers) in all the Scriptures concerning himself” (Luke 24:27), showing them the writings of the prophets that say He would have to die first and “enter into his glory” [be resurrected] before He comes again to establish the Kingdom.

You would expect that everything then would be clear to His disciples. But, no, after staying with them for 40 days (this was after His resurrection) and “speaking [to them] of the things concerning the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3), Jesus’ disciples still did not get it, for they asked Him before His ascension to heaven: “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (verse 6).

 

[Mailman]

What do the prophecies say of the Messiah’s coming?

Malachi 3:1 speaks of Christ’s first coming, the “messenger” to prepare His way being John the Baptist. However, verse 2-5 is speaking of Christ’s SECOND coming when He will “come near to you to judgment” (verse 5).

The prophecy in Malachi 4:5 is also speaking of Christ’s SECOND coming, the culmination of that “great and dreadful day of the Lord.” The “Elijah” that would precede it would be another Elijah type. And how do we know this? Scriptures tell us that “it is appointed unto men once to die…” (Heb. 9:27) and “For as in Adam ALL die” – Elijah then must be dead, in the dust of the earth – “even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE” (1 Cor. 15:22) – he is awaiting the resurrection. But Elijah won’t be “made alive” UNTIL Christ’s second coming, in the resurrection of the just: “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s [the true believers] AT HIS COMING [the Second Coming]” (verse 23).

When Jesus said, “Elijah truly shall first come and restore all things” (Matt. 17:11) He did not mean John the Baptist as that Elijah, but another Elijah “type” would come to “restore all things.” Notice that John the Baptist had already come and completed his mission then, preparing the way before Jesus’ first coming. This Elijah that Jesus was speaking about was yet to come, in the far future.

But why was Elijah YET, in the future, to come – just before the “day of the Lord?” Jesus said “to restore all things.” John the Baptist did not do that. Even Jesus did not come that first time to “restore all things.” He came to announce the Kingdom of God, which WILL restore all things. Jesus came to set up His Church – but not then to set up the Kingdom. The Church was merely the “embryo” that shall become the Kingdom of God when resurrected – when changed to immortal spirit – at Christ’s second coming.

The Scriptures tell us that God “shall send Jesus Christ” – send Christ back to earth – “whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restitution [restoration] of all things…” (Acts 3:20-21).

Jesus shall come soon to restore all things. He did not restore all things when He first came. Neither did John the Baptist. But the one who was to “restore all things” just before the “day of the Lord” and preparing the way for Christ’s second coming, was yet to come, in the future, as Jesus said.

A few things we need to understand about prophecy… First, only God’s true servants understand prophecy. Second, some prophecies are closed and sealed [not understandable] UNTIL a certain time when God shall reveal its proper understanding.

This spiritual ingredient and time element involved in correctly understanding Biblical prophecy is clearly revealed in the book of Daniel. God tells Daniel the words which he had received were “closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan. 12:9). He then goes on to tell Daniel that “none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (verse 10).

And who are the “wise”? God says, “The fear of the Eternal is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 9:10). Wisdom comes from God. “For the Eternal giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding” (Prov. 2:6). So, the way to get wisdom – to come to understand the Bible prophecies – is to fear (be in awe of) the Almighty. He says, “…but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word” (Isa. 66:2).

One can come to understand the Bible, and Biblical prophecy, only when one begins to really fear and respect God and His Word. It comes as no big surprise then that the Pharisees [and the Jews in general] failed to understand the prophecies of their Messiah’s arrival in spite of John’s clear testimony.

 

[Benadam]

What do the prophecies say of the Messiah’s coming?

Elijah then must be dead, in the dust of the earth –

Scriptures describe Elijah’s earthly life ending by being swept upward bodily. The scriptures you posted must be understood in light of that. What is the meaning of Elijah’s parting to you? Why is scripture silent about Elijah’s earthly end if it isn’t being swept up in a fiery chariot? Or did I miss something?

 

[Mailman]

Scriptures describe Elijah’s earthly life ending by being swept upward bodily. The scriptures you posted must be understood in light of that. What is the meaning of Elijah’s parting to you? Why is scripture silent about Elijah’s earthly end if it isn’t being swept up in a fiery chariot? Or did I miss something?

The Scriptures do not say Elijah’s earthly life ended when he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11). What it says is that Elijah was removed from the place where he was performing his work so that another [Elisha] could take over that work. God had to remove Elijah because with Elisha directing the work, Elijah would be without any office and this would look [to the people] as if he was being stripped of his position for some failure on his part. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. God now wanted Elisha to direct Elijah’s work and to start this under a new king (Ahaziah had just then died).

But what happened to Elijah after he was taken up by “a whirlwind into heaven”? Did he ascend to the heaven of God’s throne? He could not have, because about 900 years later Jesus Himself said: “No man hath ascended up to heaven…” (John 3:13). So, where did Elijah go?

The Bible speaks of three heavens. The third heaven is where God’s throne is. The second heaven is the vast expanse of space where we find the sun, moon, stars and all the planets and heavenly objects (Ps. 8:3; Gen. 1:15-17). The first heaven would be the atmosphere that surrounds our planet earth (Gen. 1:20; 27:28; Deut. 33:28).

Now, since Elijah could not have gone to the third heaven, he could have been only to either the second or the first heaven. However, since there could be no whirlwind in the second heaven [only air can create a whirlwind] and no life giving air there, Elijah must have gone only to the first heaven – into the atmosphere surrounding this earth.

But Elijah couldn’t have remained in the air forever, so where did he go? Notice that God did not say Elijah was to die at that time. The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed also knew that Elijah was not to die then. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop “upon some mountain, or into some valley” (II Kings 2:16) and so insisted to search for him but to no avail. Elijah was gone, but where to?

The Bible account does not reveal where Elijah went. However, what it tells us is that about ten years later the king of Judah, Jehoram, received a letter from Elijah telling him of the “great plagues” that will befall his nation because of his wicked ways (II Chron. 21:11-15). The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his – proving that he was known to be alive someplace. Just how much longer Elijah lived, the Bible does not reveal. But because “it is appointed unto men once to die,” Elijah must have died somewhat later.

In the NT, we find a similar incident of a man of God being taken away and transported to another place. After baptizing the eunuch, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip” –Philip was taken away just like Elijah, and like Elijah, those who witnessed the event saw him disappear from sight – “that the eunuch SAW HIM NO MORE… ” (Acts 8:39). But Philip was found in another place, as the next verse tells us that, “Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities…”

 

[Benadam]

But Elijah couldn’t have remained in the air forever, so where did he go? Notice that God did not say Elijah was to die at that time.

 

[Mailman]

Mailman;6613187:

Elijah could remain in the air for as long as it is good for him to be there…

The problem with that is Elijah was a human being “subject to like passions as we are” (James 5:17) – that is, subject to human nature. He was of like nature to us. He needs to eat and drink, to be protected from the elements, to bathe, to have a change of clothes, etc. Unless he was made into spirit when he was taken up, he could not have remained in the air for too long.

There is no reason to believe He had to be anywhere but the elevated state of the first heaven. That’s why he wasn’t found. A mountain is where he was seen next though with Jesus.

Just because no one found Elijah when they searched for him does not mean he remained in the air forever. To suppose that God gave Elijah the power of an endless life of nearly three thousand years is to read into the Bible what is not there. Elijah was mortal, subject to death – again, he was of like nature to us (James 5:17) and, as one born of Adam, must die – for the Scripture says: “In Adam ALL DIE” (I Cor. 15:22). No human being is immortal. “The blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords” is the only one who “hath immortality” (I Tit. 6:15-16).

Actually, what was “seen” on that mountain was only a vision of Elijah. Leaving the mountain, Jesus tells His disciples: “Tell THE VISION to no man” (Matt. 17:9). A vision is NOT a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. Moses was also seen on that mountain together with Elijah. But Moses died, and was buried (Deut. 34:5-6).

Both Moses and Elijah were still dead in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection. The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom (Matt. 16:28).

Notice that Moses is included by Paul (Hebrews 11) as among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith; BUT – “these ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise” (Heb. 11:39). But what promise? The “hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began” (Titus 1:2).

Since Moses is one of “these all” who have not yet received the promise of eternal life, it could not have been the real Moses who appeared on that mountain but only a vision of him. The same can be said of Elijah as “they, without us, should not be made perfect” (Heb. 11:40).

All the faithful will be made perfect – will obtain eternal life – TOGETHER. And, as another Scripture says, “But every man in his own order: Christ the FIRST-fruits; afterward [notice, not before] they that are Christ’s [the faithful] AT HIS COMING” (I Cor. 15:23). Christ first, then all the faithful TOGETHER.

 

[Mailman]

The bible is not ambiguous about where Elijah went. He went to the first heaven body and soul. The letter does not offer a proof that Elijah was no longer in an elevated state it affirms that his body and soul were not parted. That his body and soul did not part affirms he was not dead but it doesn’t affirm he was no longer in the elevated state of life in the first heaven.

The Bible is silent about where Elijah went AFTER he was taken up by that great whirlwind. But the fact that a letter was received from him many years later proves that God merely took Elijah to another location on earth, away from the place where he once performed his work.

To say that Elijah remained in an elevated state is to say that the whirlwind also did not die out, for Elijah could not remain suspended without the lifting power of that whirlwind. God used a whirlwind, and not some supernatural way, to elevate Elijah, so if Elijah remained suspended for thousands of years, that whirlwind had to keep on blowing for thousands of years as well.

That man has a soul [said to be immortal] that will depart from the body at death is nowhere taught in the Scriptures. This belief was popularized by the Greek philosopher, Plato, who had learned it from his teacher, Socrates, who in turn learned of the teaching from his travels to Egypt.

This belief, now embraced by this world’s Christianity, is no different from what Plato taught. Here is what he wrote in his work, “Phaedo”:

“The soul whose inseparable attribute is life will never admit of life’s opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible… Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death… Death is merely the separation of soul and body.”

The pagan philosophers used human reason to arrive at the conclusion that man must have a soul that is indestructible. But the founder of the true Christian religion cites the authority of the Almighty God when He proclaimed this truth: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in hell” (Mat. 10:28).

Many years later one of His disciples, concerned about the new converts being influenced by the teachings of these pagan philosophers gives this warning: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ [not based on the teachings of Christ]” (Col. 2:8).

Philip was seen by many after that. Only the eunuch saw him no more. You should also note the meaning and absence of the fiery whirlwind. What happened to Phillip was obviously a manner of travel aided by the Holy Spirit,because he was not somewhere nobody knew afterward, what happened to Elijah was a lifting up to an elevated state of being and was never seen again by anyone on earth untill he was seen on the Holy mountain in the light of Jesus’ Tranfiguration.

The account in Acts only says “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip” (Acts 8:39). But that does not discount the possibility that another whirlwind, or some other form of natural phenomenon, was used by God to transport Philip. And it is not just Philip’s miraculous travel that was aided by the Holy Spirit, but Elijah’s as well. Both were elevated into the atmosphere by God’s power – by His Holy Spirit.

Although it does not expressly say, “the Spirit of the Lord” took Elijah away, Elijah could not have been taken away except by God’s Spirit. 2 Kings 2:1 tells us that “the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind” (2 Kings 2:1). Notice, it was the Lord [or His Holy Spirit], who would also take Elijah away, the same as in Philip’s case. The only thing is that Acts stops short of telling us how Philip was taken away, that is, what natural phenomenon was used by God to take him up into the atmosphere.

But really, if Acts had not said anything about Philip being “found at Azotus,” many would now have falsely assumed that Philip also did not see death, just like Elijah. One can make a much stronger case for Philip because it was the Spirit of the Lord that took him away and not some natural phenomenon like a whirlwind The lesson here is that when we try to fill in the gaps where Scripture is silent, we need to consider all relevant Scriptures of the subject (understanding the Bible in its entire context) before concluding what really happened.