Confused - Elijah's coming

[JRKH]

Confused - - -
How can Jesus tell the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah when John himself said he was not??

John 1:21
And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.”

Mt 17:11-13
11 He replied, “Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

 

[Ron_Conte]

John meant that he himself was not literally Elijah.
Jesus meant that John was figuratively like Elijah.

 

[JRKH]

John meant that he himself was not literally Elijah.
Jesus meant that John was figuratively like Elijah.

Thank you.

Could you please provide the references to Elijah’s and whether it was seen as “Literal” or “figurative” by the Jews?

Peace
James

 

[thomas_jd]

Confused - - -
How can Jesus tell the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah when John himself said he was not??

John 1:21
And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.”

Mt 17:11-13
11 He replied, “Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.
/QUO

When Jesus says that Elijah has already come, he is reffering to St. John the Baptist, whose mission it was to prepare the way for the first coming of the Lord, the same as Elijah will have to do prior to his last coming. The scribes failed to grasp the meaning of the prophecy of Malachi; they thought it referred simply to the coming of the messiah, the first coming of Christ. Navarre bible footnote
Read Malachi 4:5
When asked if he was Elijah the baptist replied no. He wasn’t Elijah.

 

[JRKH]

John meant that he himself was not literally Elijah.
Jesus meant that John was figuratively like Elijah.

I find this explanation somewhat unsatisfactory.

If John’s testimony was the return of Elijah that was foretold, then why would he deny it when doing so would mislead people on who Jesus was?
If Elijah was expected to precede the Messiah, and John denied being Elijah, then it follows logically that the one coming after him (John) is not the Messiah who is to follow Elijah.

Get my drift?

Peace
james

 

[rcjones]

Your confusion is understandable. We call the repetition of a type or shadow recapitulation.

A. Elijah and Elisha together are a picture or shadow of Christ.
B. John and Jesus in the flesh are the same picture of Christ.
C. Jesus alone is the fulfillment of all the types and shadows of Christ

We must consider:

Jesus refers to B when he says “this” is Elijah:

Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Jesus refers to B and C, the disciples understand B:

Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. [C]
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, ** and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. [C]
Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. ** ****

Elijah represents Christ in the flesh, and the law. Jesus’s perfect obedience in the face of the same temptations as ours, condemns us. John said that Jesus was the Light, and the Light was the condemnation.

Elisha represents the risen Christ and grace. As Elisha removes the axe from the stream, we remember that the axe represents judgment (axe laid at the root) and the stream is the word of God, so Jesus removed judgment from the Word. This is grace.

They share the same cloak which represents works and this ties them together as one picture of Christ. John and Jesus both preached repentance as their works overlapped just as Elijah and Elisha’s did. You will find many more details as you look into the shadow.

Elijah prophesied that there would be no rain until he spoke. Rain is water which is the word of God from heaven. God was silent for 400 years until John spoke. Then God spoke through his Son.

John wore a costume to remind of us of the prophecy of Elijah. The camel hair represented the authority of a judge. the girdle of leather represents the righteousness of a priest.

He ate locusts (also meaning increase) and wild (also meaning passionate) honey (representing the earthly nature without sin. John and Elijah preached repentance in the flesh. They could not produce spiritual righteousness, since only Christ’s death could do that.

So John is Elijah and Christ Elisha in reference to B.

Everything said of John can also be said of Jesus since he fulfilled the type.

So John can say he is not Elijah referring to C in his own humility, and Jesus agrees when he says that Elijah is to come since his perfect obedience is not yet complete.

Jesus can say that John is Elijah referring to B.

Jesus can say “This” is Elijah, referring to John and He together. ** or referring to himself [C]

I hope that does not confuse things more.**

 

[NotWorthy]

I find this explanation somewhat unsatisfactory.

If John’s testimony was the return of Elijah that was foretold, then why would he deny it when doing so would mislead people on who Jesus was?
If Elijah was expected to precede the Messiah, and John denied being Elijah, then it follows logically that the one coming after him (John) is not the Messiah who is to follow Elijah.

Get my drift?

Peace
james

I find it interesting that its the Levites and Pharisees and priests who are asking John this question.

Nobody else is found asking the question, and yet the multitudes flock to John at the Jordan.

Maybe the Pharisees and priests don’t have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I’m reminded of a common phrase, “If you have to ask how much something costs, you can’t afford it”. I would borrow from this phrase to describe the Pharisees and Levits - “If you have to ask if John is Elijah, then you can’t see it yourselves”.

 

[the_Assyrian_1]

Hi All,

Its been interesting reading all your responses… I thought Id add a few words;

Bearing in mind that Elijah was filled with the HOLY GHOST from birth, in the light of this question we can see that He gave the scribes an accurate description of his duties, in line with God’s Kingdom. He was the ‘messenger in the desert, proclaiming the coming of the LORD’……

He was not the former Elijah incarnate, so that would be wrong, since the latter went to heaven in a Chariot and will return before Christ’s Second appearing (as a witness as described in revelation)…

Im my humble opinion (one might argue) that this reference to Elijah as John the Baptist is a little misleading, since it sounds like the Pharisees and scribes were looking to the end of the world as the coming of the Christ (and they were right to a degree since the old world had come to judgement in Christ’s appearing) but certainly in my catholic bible it referes to John the Baptist as John the baptist and not Elijah in Mat. And again in the beginning of Mark. So we are quoted references from Isaiah in which both times john is referred to as a *messeneger * and one crying in the desert, mentions all this in Luke also …note this…

I hope this clears things up a bit…

Much love and peace to you,
Mark

 

[crazzeto]

I think an interesting thing to note when reading these passages together, is to look at Christ’s usage of tense’s

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first?
Mat 17:11 But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, But have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist.

I think there’s a strong argument to say that Jesus was discussing John the Baptist as a type of the coming Elijah, this makes sense as John the Baptist is the last and greatest Old Testament prophit. Just to get it out there, I’ll also offer Haydock’s Notes:

Mat 17:10 Elias must come first. The prophet Elias will come again in person before my second coming to judgment, and will re-establish all things, by the conversion of the Jews to the Christian faith, according to the common opinion. But John the Baptist who was Elias in spirit, is already come. See Matthew xi. 14. (Witham) — This was a vulgar error spread by the Scribes among the Jewish people. It proceeded from an erroneous interpretation of Scripture. They confounded the two comings of our Saviour. The Baptist was the precursor of Christ at his first coming, and was styled by our Lord Elias, because he performed the office of Elias; and he shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elias. (Luke i. 17.) — But this prophet in person will be the precursor of the second coming of Christ. Whereby Malachias, predicting this coming of Christ, says: I will send to you Elias the Thesbite; thus evidently distinguishing him from the Baptist, who was also Elias in spirit and in the dignity of his office. (St. John Chrysostom, hom. lviii.) — Jesus Christ here confirms the literal sense of the prophecy; (Malachias iv. 5,) but in the next verse, he shews a prior, though less perfect accomplishment of the same in the person of John the Baptist, who was raised by God to prepare the ways of the Lord.

Mat 17:11 Shall … restore all things. According to St. John Chrysostom, Theophylactus, and others, these words signify that Elias shall restore all the Jews to the one true faith towards the end of the world; or, according to St. Augustine, he shall strengthen those that shall be found wavering in the persecution of Antichrist.

Mat 17:12 So also shall the Son of man. Jesus in a most beautiful manner takes advantage of this conversation, to remind them of his future passion, and from the recollection of the sufferings of John, affords them comfort in his own. (St. John Chrysostom)

 

[po18guy]

John meant that he himself was not literally Elijah.
Jesus meant that John was figuratively like Elijah.

Did not Elijah serve as a “type” for John the Baptist, just as Eve can be considered a type for Mary (the second Eve), and Adam a type for Jesus (the second Adam), inasmuch as we all have life through Adam, but then eternal life through Jesus?

 

[Benadam]

Remember Elijah is not dead but lives in a realm that doesn’t submit to our observation. We can’t assume that Elijah’s life is divorced from ours or not an active component operating and enfluencing things. That Elijah remains a living human being means that it can be said that he is also coming again. Notice that this kind of life doesn’t elevate to a higher state without leaving behind a corporeal organ that it operates like a twin self. Elijah had Elisha. Jesus His Bride. Moses those who taught from his chair. If Elijah could speak to Jesus about things that were about to happen to Him at the Transfiguration, Elijah could be the voice John speaks of in the following scripture :

John 1
33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and I gave testimony, that this is the Son of God.

This kind of locution does have a precedent

13 And he took up the mantle of Elias, that fell from him: and going back, he stood upon the bank of the Jordan, 14 And he struck the waters with the mantle of Elias, that had fallen from him, and they were not divided. And he said: Where is now the God of Elias? And he struck the waters, and they were divided, hither and thither, and Eliseus passed over. 15 And the sons of the prophets at Jericho, who were over against him, seeing it said: The spirit of Elias hath rested upon Eliseus. And coming to meet him, they worshipped him, falling to the ground,

Elisha performs a type of Baptism dividing the waters representing the exodus and passing through to the other side where he foreshadows Christ and the Church where he is surrounded and worshipped. A type of Christ with His Bride.

Elisha called Elijah the chariot of Israel and the driver thereof.

My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the driver thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own garments, and rent them in two pieces.

I believe Enoch prepared a straight way to the coming judgement passed over by Noah. Elijah prepared a straight way to the coming judgement of the cross passed over by the Apostles. A voice that cried in the wilderness " Make a straight way" in the mouth of the groom’s friend.

So I find it likely that Elijah is who John means when he refers to this person

but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me:

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;6487336]Confused - - -
How can Jesus tell the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah when John himself said he was not??

John 1:21
And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.”

Mt 17:11-13
11 He replied, “Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

While everyting in the Bible is TRUE; not everything is FACTUAL.

Metaphors, Parables, stories, ar various foms used to present the Bibles messages.

Metaphors 1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language

Jesus was ONLY saying that John came in place of Elijah, in fulfillment of prophsey. Ejijah was the GREATEST OT Prophet an J T B was th GREATEST NT Prophet.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Benadam]

Confused - - -
How can Jesus tell the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah when John himself said he was not??
John 1:21
And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.”

Mt 17:11-13
11 He replied, “Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

By saying he was a voice that cried “make a straight way” John the Baptist identifies himself with Elisha who is to come and restore all things. Or as written by the Prophet Malachi

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers: lest I come, and strike the earth with anathema.

Also remember there is a dynamic of knowing that is absolute during the experience of beiing 'filled with the Holy Spirit" that once over is no longer absolute but an experience retained in our memory and what was communicated a matter of faith. So , we have John the Baptist saying :

[
**
*John 1:29
The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world

---

***](Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 1)

 

[JRKH]

Many wonderful explanations. I thank each and every one for taking the time to help me.
I may be too dense to grasp all of the intricacies of some of the responses but I do appreicate the efforts.

I have never doubted that John being Elijah was a “metaphor” but here is the thing that has always bothered me about this. The Pharasees and Scribes, whom Jesus and John both railed against as “vipers”, staightout asked if John was Elijah and John said “No”. He did not qualify his statement in any way.
Now we can asume that these men knew full well the name of the man baptizing in the Jordan. That He was John, the son of Zechariah, one of the priests of God. There can be little doubt but that the pharasees “spies” would have this information. So when they asked John if he is Elijah, it is highly unlikely that they are asking if he is the literal Elijah. Rather they are asking if he is an Elijah “type”, as others a called it.
So they were asking John if he was foretelling of the coming of the messiah - John, by his saying he was not Elijah (in “type”), is telling them he is not foretelling of the coming of the Messiah. Thus, when Jesus shows up on the scene, the Pharasees naturally assume He cannot be the Messiah because “Elijah” has not yet come. They could and did consider Jesus a prophet but justifiably did not think he was the Messiah.
Of course Jesus says to the apostles that “Elijah” had indeed come, “and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they pleased”. I guess no one bothere to tell John that he was “Elijah” or John would not have denied it.

My question/concern then is, How could they be expected to “know him” when John himself denied it, one might even say lied, right to their faces and in response to a direct question???

Pease
James

 

[pcromwell]

It could be possible that John the Baptist did not know himself that he would be the Elias “type” that Jesus referred to him as. John the Baptist truthfully answered what was probably revealed to him that he was “the voice that cried in the desert.”

 

[NotWorthy]

It could be possible that John the Baptist did not know himself that he would be the Elias “type” that Jesus referred to him as. John the Baptist truthfully answered what was probably revealed to him that he was “the voice that cried in the desert.”

This might be true. “The voice…” was prophecied in Isaiah.

But John had to have some reason for wearing goat’s hair and eating grasshoppers.

 

[rcjones]

My question/concern then is, How could they be expected to “know him” when John himself denied it, one might even say lied, right to their faces and in response to a direct question???

God often speaks in riddle so that the wicked will be sealed in their wickedness and those who believe will be strengthened.

God said Adam would die the day he ate the fruit. The wicked call God a liar because Adam lived 900 years.

God told Jonah:

2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah presumed that God would destroy them, but God intended to save them. God didn’t lie to Jonah. Jonah preached judgment which brought repentance… the very purpose of God. But Jonah was sealed in his ways:

Jonah 3:1 ¶ But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

When Jesus, the God of Love, stood silent before Herod, it sealed Herod in disbelief, yet for us his silence fulfilled prophecy, strengthening our faith.

There is one water which destroys by flood or gives life. There is one fire which destroys or purifies. In Revelation the two trees of Eden have become one. Christ is the tree of life and the tree of death**, it depends upon whether you approach him in faith or disbelief.

All men are expected to know him because:

Rom 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

** THe Bible calls it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but since man already knew good, the tree could only bring evil and death.

 

[JRKH]

God often speaks in riddle so that the wicked will be sealed in their wickedness and those who believe will be strengthened.

God said Adam would die the day he ate the fruit. The wicked call God a liar because Adam lived 900 years.

God told Jonah:

2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

This is all fine and good. Thank you.
We know that God’s purpose is to save. Praise be to God.

But Rmember that Jonah did not come to Nineveh to announce teh coming of another after him.

When Jonah proclaimed to Nineveh, Nineveh repented and proclaimed a fast and God took pity and did not destroy them. Is it to be presumed that every person in Nineveh immediately and easily repented? Is it not rather to be presumed that some took to repentance more quickly than others?

Look at what happens with John. John preaches repentance. Many immediately come to be baptized. Others come with doubt and questions. Not unlike many of us here on these boards. The Pharasees come with such doubts, questions and with “hard hearts”. They ask a very specific and netural question. If John says, “Yes”, the Pharasees must look to their hearts and to Scripture and to the “One who is to come”, the “Messiah”.
But John said, “No I am not”, in answer to whether he is “Elijah”. This set the Pharasees clearly upon another path. A path, not of salvation, but of damnation.

Peace
James

 

[rcjones]

There is no evidence that the Pharisees ever asked a neutral question.

Jesus saw their hearts and called them a brood of vipers. Not because they had an erroneous understanding of scriptures, but because he taught them how to read the scriptures when he was 12 years old, and they knew who he was, and instead told lies about him.

From all the other evidence it was a question to entrap John, just as every question asked of Jesus was intended to entrap him.

I would prefer to call the Pharisees liars, since Jesus did, than to call John a liar. There is one scripture… as one reads it he distrusts God, and another finds confirmation in God’s goodness.

 

[JRKH]

It could be possible that John the Baptist did not know himself that he would be the Elias “type” that Jesus referred to him as. John the Baptist truthfully answered what was probably revealed to him that he was “the voice that cried in the desert.”

I suppose it could be possible, but consider this:

We are taught that Jesus knew who He was and what His mission was from childhood.
We Know that Elizebeth, John’s mother, knew that John’s cousin Jesus was the Messiah. (Luke 1:43) Also we see by John’s reaction in the womb that He was aware of the Jesus the Messiah (Luke 1:44). Luke even references Elijah in the announcement of John’s coming to Zecheriah. (Luke 1:17)

We also see John recognizing Jesus, his cousin, when Jesus came to the Jordan for Baptism. John tries to refuse Jesus saying, “…I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” (Mt 3:14)

It would seem that John well knew, even in the womb. It also seems likely the Jesus and John, being cousins, and living not that far apart, had contact growing up. It seems heighly unlikely that they would not have discussed, over scripture, their coming mission.

In the face of all this, it seems unlikely that John did not know that he was intended as the Elijah “type”.

Peace
James