Confused: How will a first marriage impact our future plans?

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AviSquires

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Hello all, I was hoping someone could help my fiancé and I with a situation that is becoming more and more confusing by the day.

I’m Catholic, the man I wish to marry in the Church is a Lutheran and was baptized as such as an infant. He was married before to a non-baptized atheist in a civil non-denominational wedding at a boating club. They have been civilly divorced since 2008 and his ex has since remarried, again, just civilly. They had no children and going into their marriage his ex made it known that she had no interest in having children and he agreed with her desires. Upon becoming involved with me, his desires have changed. Having and raising children in the Catholic faith is very important to the both of us now.

As I am Catholic, and he has show a great interest in converting and becoming a baptized Catholic (since this is how we plan to raise our children), what are our possible obstacles and options when it comes to having a valid sacramental marriage in the Catholic Church?

Will his original marriage require an annulment, as we were once told? If so, Is there anyway around this? And what role would his converting to Catholicism play in this?

Thank you so much for your time and concern. Any positive assistance in helping me to understand all of this would be greatly appreciated. God Bless. 🙂
 
AviSquires said:
Hello all, I was hoping someone could help my fiancé and I with a situation that is becoming more and more confusing by the day.

I’m Catholic, the man I wish to marry in the Church is a Lutheran and was baptized as such as an infant. He was married before to a non-baptized atheist in a civil non-denominational wedding at a boating club. They have been civilly divorced since 2008 and his ex has since remarried, again, just civilly. They had no children and going into their marriage his ex made it known that she had no interest in having children and he agreed with her desires. Upon becoming involved with me, his desires have changed. Having and raising children in the Catholic faith is very important to the both of us now.

As I am Catholic, and he has show a great interest in converting and becoming a baptized Catholic (since this is how we plan to raise our children), what are our possible obstacles and options when it comes to having a valid sacramental marriage in the Catholic Church?

Will his original marriage require an annulment, as we were once told? If so, Is there anyway around this? And what role would his converting to Catholicism play in this?

Thank you so much for your time and concern. Any positive assistance in helping me to understand all of this would be greatly appreciated. God Bless. 🙂
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I would talk to your priest about the annulment issue.

As far as him converting, that would not have to happen before the wedding for it to be a sacramental marriage since he is already a baptized Christian. And he won’t have to be baptized again. He will go through confirmation if he chooses to convert. (You may have already realized that but I wanted to make sure I was clear. )
 
jlc2k2 said:
I would talk to your priest about the annulment issue.

As far as him converting, that would not have to happen before the wedding for it to be a sacramental marriage since he is already a baptized Christian. And he won’t have to be baptized again. He will go through confirmation if he chooses to convert. (You may have already realized that but I wanted to make sure I was clear. )
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We tried talking to our parish priest a while back and he was the one who told us that he would probably need an annulment. Our parish priest also happens to be the Archbishop of New Orleans, so getting any private time with him has been rather difficult.

The people who work in the St. Louis Cathedral office have proven to be useful and resourceful, but they have really bizarre hours, so it’s hard to speak to them as well.

I was hoping I would find someone on here who faced a similar situation and had a positive result. Thank you for the information on the conversion idea. I didn’t know he only had to be confirmed, so I’m glad I asked.
 
AviSquires said:
We tried talking to our parish priest a while back and he was the one who told us that he would probably need an annulment. Our parish priest also happens to be the Archbishop of New Orleans, so getting any private time with him has been rather difficult.

The people who work in the St. Louis Cathedral office have proven to be useful and resourceful, but they have really bizarre hours, so it’s hard to speak to them as well.

I was hoping I would find someone on here who faced a similar situation and had a positive result. Thank you for the information on the conversion idea. I didn’t know he only had to be confirmed, so I’m glad I asked.
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!!!

I think you have very good prospects, but not to take anything for granted.

Can you perhaps switch parishes? A regular parish priest will be easier to catch and have a consistent working relationship with.
 
I am pretty sure that a diocese as large as New Orleans has marriage advocates who can help with the process. All you have to do is call and arrange for an appointment. God Bless you.🙂
 
Just to be clear, both of his previous marriages will have to be reviewed. His first marriage would be presumed to be valid until shown otherwise. If it is found invalid, then his second marriage would need to be investigated. Only if both were found to be invalid would he be free to marry.

Do not assume that either of the marriages will be found invalid. As a general rule I strongly caution people from dating until previous marriages questions are resolved. It is heart breaking when someone in the couple does not receive the annulment they were sure was a slam dunk. Also expect that if his second marriage was found invalid because he agreed to preclude children that there could be probing questions. I know when we did marriage prep that people that had several previous invalid marriage attempts had extra sessions to make sure they truly understand the full nature of marriage.

One final note: Since you are both baptized it would be sacramental by it’s nature. That is assuming it is valid. By that I mean that it must be in the Church. If the annulments are not granted and you attempt marriage outside the Church it would be neither sacramental nor valid.
 
No, there is no way “around” a declaration of freedom to marry. There are several avenues based on what you have described.

His first marriage is presumed valid unless shown otherwise through the tribunal process. That would be a decree of nullity if he has grounds (intention against children can be grounds).

If his ex had a prior marriage before marrying him, then it is possible he has a Ligamen (prior bond) case.

If his ex is unbaptized, it is possible he could petition through the Petrine privilege process for a dissolution of the bond rather than the nullity process.

You need to make an appointment with your pastor or whoever handles the first steps of the nullity process. If they have odd hours, take a vacation day from work and make it happen.

HIs converting to Catholicism plays no role in whether his first marriage was valid, or whether he will be declared free to marry again, they are two separate things,
 
1ke said:
I believe you misread the post. The fiancé in question only has one prior marriage.
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Yes, thank you for clarifying. He was only married the one time, to the non-baptized woman, he married civilly, who wasn’t interested in having children.

Also, because it was only done civilly there was no religious marriage prep as the previous poster mentioned.

Lastly, the other poster also mentioned not dating until all marriage questions have been resolved… My fiancé’s ex remarried within a year of their divorce, and upon becoming involved with me, we never thought there would be an issue since he wasn’t Catholic and neither party in the relationship had ever been married in the Catholic Church, or any church for that matter. This is why we were so surprised to find out that he may need an annulment to be married to me in the Catholic Church.
 
1ke said:
No, there is no way “around” a declaration of freedom to marry. There are several avenues based on what you have described.

His first marriage is presumed valid unless shown otherwise through the tribunal process. That would be a decree of nullity if he has grounds (intention against children can be grounds).

If his ex had a prior marriage before marrying him, then it is possible he has a Ligamen (prior bond) case.

If his ex is unbaptized, it is possible he could petition through the Petrine privilege process for a dissolution of the bond rather than the nullity process.

You need to make an appointment with your pastor or whoever handles the first steps of the nullity process. If they have odd hours, take a vacation day from work and make it happen.

HIs converting to Catholicism plays no role in whether his first marriage was valid, or whether he will be declared free to marry again, they are two separate things,
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Thank you for explaining this in detail. When I said “way around” I was indeed referring to the potential options available to us that you mentioned in this reply. I guess we’re still trying to understand the concept that:

Baptized Catholic + Baptized Catholic married outside of Church= invalid and free to marry in the Church after civil divorce. (As a friend of mine has done)

But

Baptized Lutheran + Non-Baptized Atheist married outside of the Church(or any church) = Valid and not free to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church.

Thank you for the advice as well. I will call tomorrow to make an appointment. Unfortunately, my fiancé is in the middle of his 3rd year Med School rotations so taking anytime off during their only-weekday office hours (unless it’s for court, hospitalization, birth of a child or death of a family member) is a no go according to his school rules. It looks like I’m on my own with figuring this out. Although, I don’t know if they can even talk to me regarding his situation since it involves him being married prior and not myself. I really hope they can. Thank you again.
 
1ke said:
I believe you misread the post. The fiancé in question only has one prior marriage.
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Thanks for the clarification. You are correct, I misread the part about his ex getting remarried as referring to him.
 
AviSquires said:
Thank you for explaining this in detail. When I said “way around” I was indeed referring to the potential options available to us that you mentioned in this reply. I guess we’re still trying to understand the concept that:

**Baptized Catholic + Baptized Catholic married outside of Church= invalid and free to marry in the Church after civil divorce. (As a friend of mine has done) **But

Baptized Lutheran + Non-Baptized Atheist married outside of the Church(or any church) = Valid and not free to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church.

Thank you for the advice as well. I will call tomorrow to make an appointment. Unfortunately, my fiancé is in the middle of his 3rd year Med School rotations so taking anytime off during their only-weekday office hours (unless it’s for court, hospitalization, birth of a child or death of a family member) is a no go according to his school rules. It looks like I’m on my own with figuring this out. Although, I don’t know if they can even talk to me regarding his situation since it involves him being married prior and not myself. I really hope they can. Thank you again.
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I do not believe the bolded is true.
 
HouseArrest said:
I do not believe the bolded is true.
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She is correct.

Two Catholics who marry each other outside Catholic form attempt marriage invalidly.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

They are free to marry in the Church as they have no valid prior bond. In some places, they must do a paperwork process to provide documentation of freedom to marry. But, there is no presumption of validity, no tribunal investigation/trial, and no decree of nullity.
 
Really there are two sets of “rules” for marriage. There are the universal rules set forth by God and apply to all people. These are things like marriage is between a man and a woman, can only be wed to a single person, etc. There is a second set of rules for Catholics that goes above and beyond the universal rules. This includes the requirement that a Catholic must marry in the form set forth by the Church or receive a dispensation from canonical form.

Since neither the OP’s fiancee nor the woman he first married were Catholic they are not bound by the law requiring they be married in the Church. They are still bound by divine law and it is that which would be investigated. Canon 1060 clearly states that marriage enjoys the favor of law. This means that a marriage is presumed to be valid until shown otherwise. In the case of a Catholic marrying outside the Church it is easy to establish no valid marriage took place simply by looking at their sacramental records.
 
He is going to need to get his marriage annulled. It should not be very difficult given the circumstances.
 
AviSquires said:
Baptized Catholic + Baptized Catholic married outside of Church= invalid and free to marry in the Church after civil divorce. (As a friend of mine has done)

But

Baptized Lutheran + Non-Baptized Atheist married outside of the Church(or any church) = Valid and not free to marry a Catholic in the Catholic Church.
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I think I get this, but 1ke will correct me if wrong. The catholics are supposed to know that marriage is a sacred covenant and when their behavior illustrates them treating it casually, then the case is proven that they did not accept the full gift of marriage as God intended, so they didn’t have any sort of marriage at all. Two baptized catholics aren’t eligible to have a merely natural marriage. It’s sacramental or bust. To whom much has been given, much is expected (sound familiar?)

When non-catholics marry, they aren’t the recipients of the FULLNESS of sacramental marriage, but are still eligible for the benefits of a natural marriage. That natural marriage consists of them accepting marriage to the extents they understand it by Natural Law and is considered valid for them unless there is a defect under the natural law definition of natural marriage. That can only be determined by an actual investigation.
 
I am a Baptized Lutheran who married an unbaptized Pagan in a civil ceremony. We divorced. I am in the process of annulment as we speak. I filed a year ago in June and am awaiting the decision.

How will the first marriage impact your future plans? Well, the first thing I will say is don’t set a wedding date! You cannot celebrate a valid marriage within the Church until the annulment is granted and he is free to marry. How long it takes to obtain an annulment varies by location. I was told average of 12-18 months for mine and I am at 14 months and counting.

I feel for you being unable to discuss this with your pastor as he is insanely busy. I would suggest talking to the Tribunal and asking for help there.
 
manualman said:
I think I get this, but 1ke will correct me if wrong. The catholics are supposed to know that marriage is a sacred covenant and when their behavior illustrates them treating it casually, then the case is proven that they did not accept the full gift of marriage as God intended, so they didn’t have any sort of marriage at all. Two baptized catholics aren’t eligible to have a merely natural marriage. It’s sacramental or bust. To whom much has been given, much is expected (sound familiar?)

When non-catholics marry, they aren’t the recipients of the FULLNESS of sacramental marriage, but are still eligible for the benefits of a natural marriage. That natural marriage consists of them accepting marriage to the extents they understand it by Natural Law and is considered valid for them unless there is a defect under the natural law definition of natural marriage. That can only be determined by an actual investigation.
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No, not at all. Two baptized individuals who marry validly have a sacramental marriage. Catholic or not.

A Catholic or any other baptized Christian who validly marries an unbaptized person has a natural marriage.

Sacramentality is a function of baptism, not Catholicity.
 
Surely there is a Rector or another priest at the Cathedral you could make an appointment with? I very much doubt the Archbishop runs the Cathedral parish “day-to-day”. Typically a Rector is appointed to act as pastor of the Cathedral parish on the bishop’s behalf.
 
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