Confused on porn

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johnnyjones said:
Many have been but not “nearly all”. That would be a scale of abuse that rocks the foundation of humanity.

That was the “old model” your refering to. Women today just see fast money and the sexuality of women is promoted as equal to men and women see it as , “hey a man does his thing, I’ll do mine.” . Porn sites today are filled with literally hundreds of thousands of women.
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I was speaking of those that act in the porn movies, not those who watch them or buy media that qualifies as porn. That is not the “old model”, it’s the sad state of our world. Perhaps you don’t realize that one of every six American woman is/has been the victim of some form of sexual abuse- those numbers only include cases that are reported- many more go unreported, untreated, and thus we have a population of women who never received treatment of any sort for what they went through. Only leaving them empty and lacking self-esteem, and certainly not having a healthy view of sex. I think that qualifies as numbers that rock the foundation of humanity.
 
johnnyjones said:
Many have been but not “nearly all”. That would be a scale of abuse that rocks the foundation of humanity.

That was the “old model” your refering to. Women today just see fast money and the sexuality of women is promoted as equal to men and women see it as , “hey a man does his thing, I’ll do mine.” . Porn sites today are filled with literally hundreds of thousands of women.
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I think what people are responding to here is a perception (right or wrong) that you are placing a lot of blame on women for this. I’m sure that there are women who participate in this trade who have not seen substantial abuse. However I would disagree that the "old model’ has gone away. There are way too many men still abusing women for various reasons. Anyway, it takes a man to pay for the porn and men are certainly playing their part. More worrisome these men are buying into unrealistic images of women of highly submissive women, not exactly the kind of thing that promotes a stable and realistic relationship. More so easily contributes to sexual abuse of women by some men.
 
This is the primodial moral dilemma addressed in the Bible:

16The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the gardeni 17except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.* …

18The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him.*…

24m That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.*

25The man and his wife were both naked, yet they** felt no shame**…

And here is the moral wobbling we are doing in this thread:

1Now the snake was the most cunning* of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He asked the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You shall not eat from any of the trees in the garden’?” 2The woman answered the snake: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3a it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, or else you will die.’4But the snake said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!b 5God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know* good and evil
”…

7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.
 
clem456 said:
This is the primodial moral dilemma addressed in the Bible:
…]
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Not really sure how an essentially married couple being aware of their nakedness really applied to porn outside a reference to a sinful state from original sin. The bigger issue is the effect of porn on marriage and the perception mainly of women and realistic / respectful sex.
 
PJH_74 said:
I think what people are responding to here is a perception (right or wrong) that you are placing a lot of blame on women for this. I’m sure that there are women who participate in this trade who have not seen substantial abuse. However I would disagree that the "old model’ has gone away. There are way too many men still abusing women for various reasons. Anyway, it takes a man to pay for the porn and men are certainly playing their part. More worrisome these men are buying into unrealistic images of women of highly submissive women, not exactly the kind of thing that promotes a stable and realistic relationship. More so easily contributes to sexual abuse of women by some men.
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I didn’t say the old model "went away’, it’s just cant be used as the only excuse for these acts anymore.
 
As a teenage guy who dealt with a porn problem in my own life, let me say what I find wrong with it, even if it isnt a mortal sin:
  1. It is stupid. On both sides. Why would film yorself having sex to show to complete strangers? And why would you put yourself at risk by watching it?
  2. It won’t stop there. Watching porn leads to masturbation (or vice versa), and the it will lead to uncontrollable fantasies about it later. It also wears down your defense against the temptations of some of the women around you. You will eventually give in and have sex. Then you will feel that you can’t live without it. You go to college. You give into all the temptations of multiple sexual partners, strip clubs, prostitutes, all the rest. One of your partners is pregnant- your child. You are afraid that your career will go up on smoke, encourage her to get an abortion. Congratulations, you venial sin ended in excommunication! But that’s not all- there’s more! When you finally settle down and get married, you and your wife have a child. Only after this do you go get STI testing. Result: positive. Your wife gets tested: positive. Your child gets tested: positive. Your wife must have passed it on to him/ her during childbirth. Now your entire family has STIs. Happy?
Now, I’m not saying that this will happen, but is it worth the possibility?

Note:
Porn is inherently evil. For the sake of the argument I acted like it wasn’t.
 
LightBound said:
I was speaking of those that act in the porn movies, not those who watch them or buy media that qualifies as porn. That is not the “old model”, it’s the sad state of our world. Perhaps you don’t realize that one of every six American woman is/has been the victim of some form of sexual abuse- those numbers only include cases that are reported- many more go unreported, untreated, and thus we have a population of women who never received treatment of any sort for what they went through. Only leaving them empty and lacking self-esteem, and certainly not having a healthy view of sex. I think that qualifies as numbers that rock the foundation of humanity.
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No, you were speaking of porn persons, prostitutes and strippers. I don’t deny one out of six women are sexually abused but on what basis do you make that connection that “nearly all” doing these acts are abused. There have been stats showing a connection many times but it’s not the same today (nor may it have always been). Just putting the psychological connection that most know into the post is old news. We know that already. Hundreds of women just want the money, and believe it or not the sex. Not everyone had to be damaged by some evil act going into these “trades.” The abuse reason exists but it’s time to start looking at responsibility. Some women just want a money filled crazy sex life and yes ultimately it is destructive.
 
johnnyjones said:
No, you were speaking of porn persons, prostitutes and strippers. I don’t deny one out of six women are sexually abused but on what basis do you make that connection that “nearly all” doing these acts are abused. There have been stats showing a connection many times but it’s not the same today (nor may it have always been). Just putting the psychological connection that most know into the post is old news. We know that already. Hundreds of women just want the money, and believe it or not the sex. Not everyone had to be damaged by some evil act going into these “trades.” The abuse reason exists but it’s time to start looking at responsibility. Some women just want a money filled crazy sex life and yes ultimately it is destructive.
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Okay, johnny, I’m done with this thread. Happy now?
 
johnnyjones said:
Happy? :confused: When someone who can’t defend their position puts their tail between their legs and bails out don’t attribute it to me.
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I’m just tired of your argumentative nature on CAF. I have spoken and need not defend anything I have said. There isnt any bailing out on my end or any tail-tucking from me. Just the realization that I don’t want to nor do I have time to deal with someone who can’t see any other viewpoint than their own. Go back and read your posts on this and other threads and see how you sound…
 
Porn does incredible damage to young men every day. There is absolutely no doubt that porn is very evil. The beauty in the bodies designed and created by God are good though.

Porn is a good example of how the devil inverts and subverts what God has created and takes what is good and turns it into sin and evil.
 
Some more thoughts:

Thanks for the replies.

I think that there are virtues and problems to each answer.

Now we must define porn. Obviously my previous definition that had to do with any nudity outside of marriage that had the potential for arousal was wrong.

Is porn intrinsically evil. It seems so, since the definition (viewing nudes for the sake of arousal) is always evil.

However, from the POV of the actual images, porn can be seen to be extrinsically bad, since it will only be bad on the condition that one intends to feel arousal at the images. But not everyone feels aroused at images of nudes or people having sex. (after all, there are asexuals or eunuchs and also, if porn can be compared to a drug, then it will stop having an arousing effect after repeated viewings.).

But again, why the importance of shame in determining what is porn and what isn’t? For a person can lose a sense of shame. One could say that there is an ideal level of shame but what makes this the ideal level? Surely it cannot be shame itself since we saw that shame is a changeable emotion.
 
johnnyjones said:
No, you were speaking of porn persons, prostitutes and strippers. I don’t deny one out of six women are sexually abused but on what basis do you make that connection that “nearly all” doing these acts are abused. There have been stats showing a connection many times but it’s not the same today (nor may it have always been). Just putting the psychological connection that most know into the post is old news. We know that already. Hundreds of women just want the money, and believe it or not the sex. Not everyone had to be damaged by some evil act going into these “trades.” The abuse reason exists but it’s time to start looking at responsibility. Some women just want a money filled crazy sex life and yes ultimately it is destructive.
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Many girls going into porn today were themselves exposed to pornography at a young age. This is itself an indirect form of abuse that corrupts girls’ self image and attitude towards sexuality. This, of course, does not absolve them of responsibility, but it’s important to remember that the porn industry is a vicious cycle. So, yes, those involved should accept their responsibility for their choices, but at the same time, we should be compassionate towards them. As our Lord said, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” The moral conscience of our society has undoubtedly been warped beyond recognition.
 
fakename said:
Some more thoughts:

However, from the POV of the actual images, porn can be seen to be extrinsically bad, since it will only be bad on the condition that one intends to feel arousal at the images. But not everyone feels aroused at images of nudes or people having sex. (after all, there are asexuals or eunuchs and also, if porn can be compared to a drug, **then it will stop having an arousing effect after repeated viewings.). **.
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Let me “reassure” you (I’m really not sure what you’re looking for) that repeated viewings of these images ,even if they dulled and perverted the God-given physical responses through addiction, nevertheless spread the evil they are intend to spread. Pleasure is almost irrelevant, other than as a tool the evil one uses to hook you.

Do you believe the natural end of indulging in evil is pleasure? I can assure you that pleasure is not the end result of indulging in evil. The pleasure reflex may be involved, and a person might deceive themselves that pleaure is limitlessly available. but the natural end of this kind of evil is torture, despair, isolation, in a word, hell. Broken families, lost productivity,disease, dissipation, shattered self esteem, acedia.
 
clem456 said:
Let me “reassure” you (I’m really not sure what you’re looking for) that repeated viewings of these images ,even if they dulled and perverted the God-given physical responses through addiction, nevertheless spread the evil they are intend to spread. Pleasure is almost irrelevant, other than as a tool the evil one uses to hook you.

Do you believe the natural end of indulging in evil is pleasure? I can assure you that pleasure is not the end result of indulging in evil. The pleasure reflex may be involved, and a person might deceive themselves that pleaure is limitlessly available. but the natural end of this kind of evil is torture, despair, isolation, in a word, hell. Broken families, lost productivity,disease, dissipation, shattered self esteem, acedia.
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So you either agree or disagree that from the POV of the images, that porn is extrinsically bad?
 
prodigalson2011 said:
Many girls going into porn today were themselves exposed to pornography at a young age. This is itself an indirect form of abuse that corrupts girls’ self image and attitude towards sexuality. This, of course, does not absolve them of responsibility, but it’s important to remember that the porn industry is a vicious cycle. So, yes, those involved should accept their responsibility for their choices, but at the same time, we should be compassionate towards them. As our Lord said, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” The moral conscience of our society has undoubtedly been warped beyond recognition.
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Are there any real statistics that these girls saw porn as a kid and got into the field? I don’t deny some have, but just pure money and a “unique” lifestyle is all some misguided girls need to pursue porn.
 
fakename said:
Is pornography intrinsically evil or extrinsically?

And the next question would be how can porn be wrong when it is okay to see naked people?

If we grant that seeing naked people is bad or always leads to bad consequences then it would be a sin to even see nudes but it is not.

If we grant that porn has many senses (some depicts sex, others are nudes, and etc.) then we can say that seeing two people having sex is bad (at least if you are not one of the two people) even if other porn is neutral. Now I will grant this (though the rule has to be better stated for it seems arbitrary that a third person looking in is inherently bad [why because he’s a third?]).

But of course the mere seeing of sex cannot be a sin since there is no real intention in such things, just a correspondence b/t eyes and the object seen.

And of course if porn is only extrinsically bad (it exploits the performers for instance) then it follows that since there are worse sins, the principle of double effect can be invoked to allow someone to see it. Therefore sometimes one can watch porn (indeed, one could perhaps see porn actors who are not exploited).

So all these conclusions seem uncommon. So what is the real deal behind the evil of porn?
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Here is an article that should help anyone who is confused about porn and its effects:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/life-and-family/pornography/the-harmful-effects-of-pornography/

Peace,
Ed
 
johnnyjones said:
Happy? :confused: When someone who can’t defend their position puts their tail between their legs and bails out don’t attribute it to me.
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Code: 
:rolleyes:
First of all, I made a decision not to debate with some rude stranger on the internet who feels he always has to be right and demand statistics to back up every comment or reply. You seem to enjoy getting into debates and arguments on here. I’m far too old to play middle school games with the kids. I did not put my tail between my leg and bail out. I just decided that I was not about to deal with you or anyone else that demands an answer with statistics for every reply on a discussion forum. Keep that in mind for any future threads we happen to be on at the same time.
 
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