Confused on Purgatory

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ErricFiggy

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Is it okay to use passages like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man(Luke 16:19-31) and verses that say "he went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet 3:19).

If my understanding is correct, these passages are talking about Sheol, or Abraham’s Bosom. So how can use it as biblical evidence for Purgatory? Although, the passage found in Corinthians is excellent.
 
ErricFiggy said:
If my understanding is correct, these passages are talking about Sheol, or Abraham’s Bosom. So how can use it as biblical evidence for Purgatory?
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It demonstrates that there is a place after death that is neither heaven nor hell. It doesn’t prove anything about purgatory, but it offers corroborating evidence that such a place is possible, and that the idea of such a place is not opposed to Scripture.
 
DavidFilmer said:
It demonstrates that there is a place after death that is neither heaven nor hell. It doesn’t prove anything about purgatory, but it offers corroborating evidence that such a place is possible.
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Ah okay, that makes sense. But couldn’t that person point out that Sheol no longer exists since all the holy souls in there were already taken to Heaven?

Also, would 1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” be more appropriate to offer not only that another destination besides Heaven and He’ll is possible, but that that place is Purgatory?
 
ErricFiggy said:
Ah okay, that makes sense. But couldn’t that person point out that Sheol no longer exists since all the holy souls in there were already taken to Heaven?

Also, would 1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” be more appropriate to offer not only that another destination besides Heaven and He’ll is possible, but that that place is Purgatory?
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As you point out, it is a good passage to use. For example

one could ask

Q: Why would Paul teach the following will happen to a soul that is saved?

1 Cor 3:
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.* It will berevealed with fire, and the**fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 Ifwhat has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 **If *it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Paul’s points
  • on “the Day” this process happens only to a soul that is saved but not perfectly clean. It won’t happen to a soul that is not saved. That soul goes to hell
  • Therefore, this is not a process for a soul that is condemned…i.e. not saved
  • on “the Day” the soul is judged, and receives a reward based on what good remains after the process described is completed. The process , entails suffering and conditions… i.e. statements which begin with (if’s)
  • and the soul that is saved, ultimately escapes, but only as through fire.
One could say, even though purgatory is not mentioned by name in scripture, this is classic biblical language describing purification after death but before entering heaven.

an OT prototype of Paul’s letter, describes “the day” i.e. the day one dies is the day of judgement of their soul

Mal 3:
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

Since “nothing uncleen/impure can enter heaven” [Rev 21:27], Paul says something has to happen to the soul between this life and heaven to purify the soul in order to enter heaven…
 
ErricFiggy said:
Ah okay, that makes sense. But couldn’t that person point out that Sheol no longer exists since all the holy souls in there were already taken to Heaven?
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Sure they could say that. The same thing will happen to purgatory (everyone in purgatory will go to heaven).

(and we don’t know if Sheol still exists, but is empty)
Also, would 1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” be more appropriate
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Yes, that’s the money-quote for Catholic apologists (which shows you how desperate we are for Biblical support - it’s hardly conclusive proof). If you have time for only one verse, that’s the one to use. The Bosom of Abraham merely shows that a place like purgatory is not incompatible with Scripture.
 
There is no explicit evidence of purgatory in the bible, that is not to mean purgatory does not exist. It just means biblically speaking non existent but based upon tradition.

God Bless.
 
Bismarck said:
There is no explicit evidence of purgatory in the bible, that is not to mean purgatory does not exist. It just means biblically speaking non existent but based upon tradition.

God Bless.
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The term purgatory isn’t in scripture, but the concept sure is.
 
Jesus said “You want get out of that prison until you’ve paid the final penny.”
 
ErricFiggy said:
Ah okay, that makes sense. But couldn’t that person point out that Sheol no longer exists since all the holy souls in there were already taken to Heaven?

Also, would 1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” be more appropriate to offer not only that another destination besides Heaven and He’ll is possible, but that that place is Purgatory?
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If purgatory dies exist, it is exclusively taught through tradition. If you do proper exegesis you will realize that the ‘‘fire’’ is directly tied to the ‘‘day’’ which throughout the new testament is referring to the day when God judges the world throughout Jesus christ specifically at the end
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
If purgatory dies exist, it is exclusively taught through tradition.
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In written Tradition [1 Cor 3:14…] and also in oral Tradition
EY:
If you do proper exegesis you will realize that the ‘‘fire’’ is directly tied to the ‘‘day’’ which throughout the new testament is referring to the day when God judges the world throughout Jesus christ specifically at the end
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That “Day” is the Day one is judged. Which is the time of one’s death. There’s no waiting to be judged, and there is no soul sleep.

Technically, one’s death IS the end of the world for THEM. One is judged and they know then where they will be spending all eternity. The 2nd coming, won’t change one bit, a person’s destination who has already died. They’ve already been judged, and will already be in either hell, purgatory or heaven. The resurrection of all the bodies at the 2nd coming, restores the soul to the resurrected body, and they return body and soul to heaven or hell. All those in purgatory will ultimately be in heaven anyway, so at the 2nd coming, Purgatory will cease to exist. In the end, there will only be heaven or hell.
 
Look at a concordance of the old and new testament including an electronic word search in the fathers, never do they refer to 'the day’s as one death but only judgement day
 
Prove that from scripture or tradition. When the scripture and tradition refer to the day it is one eschatological referent. You really have no grounds for that
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Prove that from scripture or tradition. When the scripture and tradition refer to the day it is one eschatological referent. You really have no grounds for that
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You realize the scriptures were written in, by, and for the Catholic Church…right? This is our book. Everything I said previously is what the Church teaches.
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0058.html

Look at the rich man and Lazarus story. Jesus is the one telling His listeners about these 2 people after they died… Both are in different places. One happy the other in torment. Did these 2 wait for sometime far in the future for judgement? Nope. It happened at their death. And notice, the rich man wants to bargain for his family still alive, so they don’t come to the place he is in. Judgement happens at death.
 
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 NASB

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If its your book then read it. I’m totally for tradition but you gotta know paul
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 NASB

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If its your book then read it. I’m totally for tradition but you gotta know paul
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Paul is encouraging there.

But he doesn’t contradict himself when he says [1 Cor 3:14…]

Anymore than when he says to the same people,
  • [1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10] no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those sins land a person in hell if one dies in them. They don’t go to purgatory. Purgatory is only for those who die in venial sins, NOT mortal sins as Paul describes there
 
Why does ‘day’ never refer to the time each individual dies? But here it does? Neither in the new testament or in the fathers?
 
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