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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
I am not saying that it is impossible for “the day” to be referring to the day of each individual’s death, I am just saying that it is highly unlikely, almost impossible. For why would there be such a significance for something that happens a million times a day? Therefore, we should be inline with the New Testament authors, for if they were speaking today in St. Peter’s Basilica, they would sit down and listen very carefully.
Listen to what St. Paul is saying:
“Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15).
There is more than 1 reason to understand this section to be referring to the “end-time” judgement which is to take place once for all mankind.
Listen to what St. Paul is saying:
“Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15).
There is more than 1 reason to understand this section to be referring to the “end-time” judgement which is to take place once for all mankind.
- Fire is spoken of as having a testing function. This fire is not referring to fire that is applied to the human body or the human soul. This is a fire much like the kind that would be used to test gold or silver. The “fire” is obviously not a impersonal force of a flame applied to the human beings in one’s church. What is meant is that God will examine each man’s work and what he used to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. If the “fire” brings down the building, then the person who was building remains saved, however his work of ministry has been burned up. In this way, he is saved, as through fire.
- If the fire is purgatory, then having a “testing function” makes no sense at all since purgatory is a place where man is purged of remaining evil and is made pure before God. Purgatory is not a test, rather it is a place where one goes after the testing has been finished and a person is found in need of purgatory
- What is being burned up is not the human creature who is a minister to God’s building, but the work which he built. Therefore it cannot be purgatory
- Since the “fire” of v15c carries the same meaning as the previous “fire”, it must still be referring to the fire which burns the work of the man, and not the man himself.
- 1 Cor 4:1-5 is continuing the thought of this “judgement” upon God’s ministers and what is said is “Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God”. This judgement is no different that the “day” which is used previously in 3:12-15.
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steve_b
Guest
You’re struggling with misconceptions. If you don’t mind, read this and then let’s talk.
cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm explaining purgatory
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Hey good article. However, I still do not believe 1 cor 3:12-15 is as clear as day as anything else the author wrote.
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Actaeon
Guest
That is not necessarily true… in 2 Tim 1:18, we see that St Paul prays for the soul of a man who recently died, saying:
“18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.”
This is none other than a direct reference to a person in purgation… after all, if the man is dead and in hell, then he is beyond any hope of salvation… if the man is in heaven, then he is beyond any need for mercy. The only way this prayer makes sense is if this person is dead and niether damned to hell nor resting in heaven. This prayer only works if the man is in purgation.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
This is not referring to the day he gets let out of purgatory and gets to heaven. Rather, this day is the day of judgement. And we don’t know if he was dead
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Actaeon
Guest
The day of the particular judgement is at death, as has already been illustrated. He is saved at that point, not at the final judgement.
Second, I’m aware that protestants CLAIM that he was just off galavanting around somewhere… but we’re talking about a time when people spent 99% of their lives within a 20 mile radius, only RARELY venturing out to visit family in farther reaches. He wasn’t with his family in Ephesus, and he wasn’t where Timothy was… ergo, the most plausible position he would be in to need the mercy of God is that he had suffered the physical death.
Let me ask you some questions, Erick…
- Do you believe that, as per Rev 21, that nothing impure will ever enter heaven?
- Do you believe that humans, upon conversion, are immediately made totally pure and will remain that way in heaven, or do you believe that we are “ascended” into heaven, into a state which is better than that which we currently have?
- Do you believe that when we convert we assume the merit of heaven: in other words, upon conversion, is Christ’s grace no longer necessary, or do we still rely on Christ for salvation, even after conversion?
- If you recognize that we don’t merit heaven without Christ after initial conversion, and you recognize a growth process in spiritual grace, what method do you propose for those who die in order to enter heaven without any impurity? (Common terms protestants use here are that we are “bathed in the Blood of Jesus”, or that we’re “covered like a mound of snow”, etc)
I’m going to stop right there and give you a chance to answer before I play the trump card…
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
First of all, you are characterizing protestants like a blanket. The modern day ask Jesus into your heart, pray this prayer, etc etc is a product of false understandings of salvation. Calvin, whom I do not follow, believed the soul was actually healed and made holy, though the word describing it is regeneration, whereas justification belonged to the remission of sin. Therefore your characterizations are silly.
I’ve conducted many evangelistic encounters ans the message is that anyone who wants to be saved must deny themselves, crucify their lives everyday to follow God and his rule. That is the condition of salvation, all the way to death.
To answer your question. No after the soul is initially converted, it is not actually perfect. Yes no unclean thing will enter heaven. That is why the end time resurrection, a one time event, gives us a holy and glorious body, this is the power of Philippians 3:9-15. As to what happens to the soul after physical death but before the end is that they go to be with christ. Absent from the body is to be present with the lord. And Paul said this as a man who claimed not to be perfected yet (Philippians 3:9-10)
I’ve conducted many evangelistic encounters ans the message is that anyone who wants to be saved must deny themselves, crucify their lives everyday to follow God and his rule. That is the condition of salvation, all the way to death.
To answer your question. No after the soul is initially converted, it is not actually perfect. Yes no unclean thing will enter heaven. That is why the end time resurrection, a one time event, gives us a holy and glorious body, this is the power of Philippians 3:9-15. As to what happens to the soul after physical death but before the end is that they go to be with christ. Absent from the body is to be present with the lord. And Paul said this as a man who claimed not to be perfected yet (Philippians 3:9-10)
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Jerry-Jet
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The bible nowhere says “to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord”.
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steve_b
Guest
The resurrection of all the bodies at the end of the world, doesn’t change a soul’s trajectory. People who have already died, have also already been judged at their death. Resurrecting the body now unites the body and soul again. If the soul was in heaven they return to heaven body and soul. If the soul was in hell, they return to hell body and soul. At the end of the world purgatory ceases to exist.
BTW, Paul never said *Absent from the body is to be present with the lord. *.
He said “*would prefer *to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” To which anyone in their right mind would say, Yeah…Amen… preach it Paul…who wouldn’t prefer to be absent from the body and present with the Lord!!!
The way you stated it, is one of those oft misquoted statements of Paul that sooooo many Protestants misquote. And people memorize the misquote not realizing they are misquoting Paul. It drastically changes the meaning giving people a false sense of security.
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Erick_Ybarra
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True but he did say Philippians 1:23-24 NASB
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
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steve_b
Guest
I’m sure most people would desire to leave here and go to heaven. That doesn’t mean they slam dunk will
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Philippians 1:21-24 NASB
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Paul is not speaking in the possibility of not being with Christ. He is just as sure about departing to be with Christ as he is that remaining alive is Christ. And some of you might say that Paul is talking about himself not a general group of people. But in Philippians 3:10-12 he admits he is not perfected yet but he strives and this is said at the same time his assurance that to die for Christ is to be with Christ.
There really is not case for purgatory from the new testament. Certainly front maccabees, but not any thing else besides old testament.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Paul is not speaking in the possibility of not being with Christ. He is just as sure about departing to be with Christ as he is that remaining alive is Christ. And some of you might say that Paul is talking about himself not a general group of people. But in Philippians 3:10-12 he admits he is not perfected yet but he strives and this is said at the same time his assurance that to die for Christ is to be with Christ.
There really is not case for purgatory from the new testament. Certainly front maccabees, but not any thing else besides old testament.
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steve_b
Guest
When Paul says “me” I think it’s clear who he is talking about
EY:
Since all who go to purgatory WILL go to heaven, absolutely, as Paul says, [1 cor 3:14…] your point of trying to get Paul in [Phil 1:21-24] to contradict what he taught in [1 Cor 3:14…] is misusing Paul’s teaching.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
So he would not have gone to be with Christ? I nowhere admitted the &’‘day’’ in 1 Corinthians 3 to be referring to each persons individual death. Such a meaning would do violence to Paul’s argument (follow 1 Corinthians 3:11 all the way to 4:1-5). The day is the last day, singular, for all to be in judgement.
And Paul is simply saying that he would depart and be with Christ, nothing in between. In fact if Paul believed in purgatory, for he never alludes to such a process, he did so behind the writings we have.
And Paul is simply saying that he would depart and be with Christ, nothing in between. In fact if Paul believed in purgatory, for he never alludes to such a process, he did so behind the writings we have.
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steve_b
Guest
Are you by chance 7th day Adventist?
Paul most certainly described a process of purification that only the saved go through after death but before heaven. [1 Cor 3:11…]
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
No. I believe in the real prescience of christ in Eucharist, bishop heirarchy, apostolic succession, roman primacy, I believe the early church fathers, I believe in baptismal regeneration, I believe in worship of liturgy.
As of now, I cannot accept Trent on justification, although they are almost precise. I question if the early Christians believed in purgatorial processes, I question the church’s insistence on the church of Rome being exempt from the apostacy that was possible for the 7 churches in revelation 1-3.
And as I said, do a word study on 'the day’s or 'that day’s as well as exegete 1 Corinthian 3:12-4:9, you will see the overall context of gods judgement on ministers at the final day of judgement. Therefore whereas you are seeing ‘‘day’’ referring to a multiple amount of days in particular each day one dies, Paul sees it as a singular day of judgement.
1 Corinthians 4:1-5 NASB
Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
As of now, I cannot accept Trent on justification, although they are almost precise. I question if the early Christians believed in purgatorial processes, I question the church’s insistence on the church of Rome being exempt from the apostacy that was possible for the 7 churches in revelation 1-3.
And as I said, do a word study on 'the day’s or 'that day’s as well as exegete 1 Corinthian 3:12-4:9, you will see the overall context of gods judgement on ministers at the final day of judgement. Therefore whereas you are seeing ‘‘day’’ referring to a multiple amount of days in particular each day one dies, Paul sees it as a singular day of judgement.
1 Corinthians 4:1-5 NASB
Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
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steve_b
Guest
Great! So, what are you doing about that?
EY:
?
EY:
Why?
Since people sin, and nothing uncleen can enter heaven, something has to happen to a person between death and their entry into heaven. Thus [1 Cor 3:11…]
EY:
So that we are on the same page in understanding the meaning of terms, here is the definition according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)
**2089 *Incredulity ***is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; ***apostasy ***is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; ***schism ***is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Therefore, regarding apostasy, I would suggest, all those terms mentioned, the Church is protected from.
Why?
Because Jesus gave Peter, a certain promise and strength regarding faith. Jesus prays specifically for Peter, that Peter’s faith will not fail [Lk 22:32…]. Because he is to strengthen his brothers after they have been sifted like wheat by Satan. Jesus tells Peter, that Satan is allowed to sift everyone like wheat. Therefore, some ONE has to be protected and be the protector, in matters of faith, and this is by Our Lord’s own design. That’s Peter. I have zero doubt Jesus prayer comes true.
Does Satan ever stop sifting? Nope! Don’t you think Jesus is making the same promise to Peter’s successors, the popes of Rome? I sure do. Afterall, Jesus said not even the gates of hell will prevail against the Church Jesus builds on Peter…right? Can people fail? Yes. But who did Jesus say is ultimately the one to strengthen them in faith? Peter.
EY:
When a person dies, they are judged that day. We are only judged once [Heb 9:27]. At the end of the world, those who are alive then, that is THEIR day of judgement. They will only be judged once. Each person’s death is judgement day for THEM.
EY:
Obviously Paul is teaching them how to be trustworthy stewards
- don’t pass judgment on others, and don’t think one can acquit themself
- Only God will examine, enlighten, and disclose, mens motives and hearts, not you
- if one is praiseworthy, it will ultimately come from God.
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Actaeon
Guest
I assure you, I have PLENTY of experience with the world of protestants. The entire reason I asked those questions was to ascertain what your particular beliefs were (out of the thousands of possibilities). And yes, I happen to agree with you that OSAS and Calvinism are both incorrect.
So to recap, despite our difference in belief about when judgement occurs, we agree that:
- Nothing impure can enter heaven
- That the soul is not made perfect in initial conversion
- That therefore additional conversion, or purification, is needed after death but before entrance into heaven.
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
You see, purgatory is the name we give to the process by which one is purified. We don’t ACTUALLY doctrinally define purgatory as a physical place, nor do we have a doctrinal definition of what that process entails (beyond some fundamental understanding of its overall nature).
So, Erick, we’re not as different as you might think, since you SHARE the belief in purgatory with the Catholic Church… you just don’t call that purification process purgatory like we do.
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Erick_Ybarra
Guest
The problem I have with the Catholic Teaching on Purgatory is
that Paul understood his physical death to be “gain” (Phillippians 1). Why is physically dying gain? Even those people who believe 1 corinthians 3 to be referring to a purgatory understand that purgatory is a process of “suffering” (1 Cor 3:12-15). However, for Paul, departing from his physical body IS gain, not might be or gradually will be or one day later shall be. He thought of himself as departing to be with Christ in his physical death
AND
at the same time confesses he was not perfected (Phil 3:9-15).
Paul was either not aware of this mistake or he truly thought that believers die and go to be with Christ.
To fact that a person is not totally purified at initial conversion says nothing about the need to make clean the soul departed from it’s physical body in order to be completely pure for the presence of God.
Look at Romans 6-7, death completely severs one’s sinfulness just as much as death severs one from the law. When a Christian’s physical body dies, he/she no longer has any retainment from their Adamic sinfulness. They are “dead to sin” in the true sense just like Jesus Christ. Sin has nothing to do with them.
that Paul understood his physical death to be “gain” (Phillippians 1). Why is physically dying gain? Even those people who believe 1 corinthians 3 to be referring to a purgatory understand that purgatory is a process of “suffering” (1 Cor 3:12-15). However, for Paul, departing from his physical body IS gain, not might be or gradually will be or one day later shall be. He thought of himself as departing to be with Christ in his physical death
AND
at the same time confesses he was not perfected (Phil 3:9-15).
Paul was either not aware of this mistake or he truly thought that believers die and go to be with Christ.
To fact that a person is not totally purified at initial conversion says nothing about the need to make clean the soul departed from it’s physical body in order to be completely pure for the presence of God.
Look at Romans 6-7, death completely severs one’s sinfulness just as much as death severs one from the law. When a Christian’s physical body dies, he/she no longer has any retainment from their Adamic sinfulness. They are “dead to sin” in the true sense just like Jesus Christ. Sin has nothing to do with them.
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