Confused on Purgatory

[steve_b]

The problem I have with the Catholic Teaching on Purgatory is
that Paul understood his physical death to be “gain” (Phillippians 1). Why is physically dying gain? Even those people who believe 1 corinthians 3 to be referring to a purgatory understand that purgatory is a process of “suffering” (1 Cor 3:12-15). However, for Paul, departing from his physical body IS gain, not might be or gradually will be or one day later shall be. He thought of himself as departing to be with Christ in his physical death

AND

at the same time confesses he was not perfected (Phil 3:9-15).

Paul was either not aware of this mistake or he truly thought that believers die and go to be with Christ.

To fact that a person is not totally purified at initial conversion says nothing about the need to make clean the soul departed from it’s physical body in order to be completely pure for the presence of God.

Look at Romans 6-7, death completely severs one’s sinfulness just as much as death severs one from the law. When a Christian’s physical body dies, he/she no longer has any retainment from their Adamic sinfulness. They are “dead to sin” in the true sense just like Jesus Christ. Sin has nothing to do with them.

If you’re not perfect when you die, (and who is?), then you will be made perfect before entrance to heaven(1 Cor 3:12-15). As Paul said, That process of being made perfect, is only for the saved not the unsaved. Don’t forget that point, and don’t gloss over it. Only the saved go through this process. While the body sins, dies, and disintegrates, the immortal soul lives forever, and after death, it carries the consequences of sin into the next life. All imperfection must be purged away so the soul is now perfect, or there is no entry into heaven. That’s the deal. and (1 Cor 3:12-15) is the final process that makes the soul perfect.

Suffering is part of it, Just as suffering is part of this life,

Romans 8:17
*Now **if ***we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

**Ifs **indicate conditional statements, i.e. conditions must be met to satisy the conclusion. One condition is suffering.

Once this process (1 Cor 3:12-15) is done, and one is in heaven, all suffering ends, and there is only happiness.

 

[Actaeon]

The problem I have with the Catholic Teaching on Purgatory is
that Paul understood his physical death to be “gain” (Phillippians 1). Why is physically dying gain? Even those people who believe 1 corinthians 3 to be referring to a purgatory understand that purgatory is a process of “suffering” (1 Cor 3:12-15). However, for Paul, departing from his physical body IS gain, not might be or gradually will be or one day later shall be. He thought of himself as departing to be with Christ in his physical death

You and I have a much different understanding of suffering then… it appears that you consider any sort of loss or suffering as “bad”, and comfort and happiness as “good”. I don’t define it that way: to me, any sort of suffering that brings me closer to God is good… while any sort of rest, comfort, or happiness that detracts from my relationship with God is bad. It is the result of a human condition that renders it gain or loss, not the emotive response.

So, for example, let’s say that I’m struggling with charity because I have a habit of buying too many computer games. I may have to “suffer” a bit to become more charitable, by not buying games, by giving up on my selfish compulsion. True conversion REQUIRES self-sacrifice (we agree on that) and often times self-sacrifice is difficult. Heck, sometimes it’s even difficult to RECOGNIZE where we have been sinful in our behavior, and that discomfort is ALSO suffering.

But all those forms of suffering are not bad, in fact, they are quite the opposite… they are decidedly a gain, because if I go through them I am a better person, and more in keeping with the nature that God designed me for.

So when we say that people suffer, we don’t mean in the sense that God is going to prescribe spankings and time-outs to mette out some sort of vengeance on those who go to purgation… we mean that we will have to endure facing up to where we failed, and we will have to be purged of those parts of our nature which are impure, despite any discomfort facing those failures might bring about. And that’s a GOOD suffering, a gainful suffering.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You and I have a much different understanding of suffering then… it appears that you consider any sort of loss or suffering as “bad”, and comfort and happiness as “good”. I don’t define it that way: to me, any sort of suffering that brings me closer to God is good… while any sort of rest, comfort, or happiness that detracts from my relationship with God is bad. It is the result of a human condition that renders it gain or loss, not the emotive response.

So, for example, let’s say that I’m struggling with charity because I have a habit of buying too many computer games. I may have to “suffer” a bit to become more charitable, by not buying games, by giving up on my selfish compulsion. True conversion REQUIRES self-sacrifice (we agree on that) and often times self-sacrifice is difficult. Heck, sometimes it’s even difficult to RECOGNIZE where we have been sinful in our behavior, and that discomfort is ALSO suffering.

But all those forms of suffering are not bad, in fact, they are quite the opposite… they are decidedly a gain, because if I go through them I am a better person, and more in keeping with the nature that God designed me for.

So when we say that people suffer, we don’t mean in the sense that God is going to prescribe spankings and time-outs to mette out some sort of vengeance on those who go to purgation… we mean that we will have to endure facing up to where we failed, and we will have to be purged of those parts of our nature which are impure, despite any discomfort facing those failures might bring about. And that’s a GOOD suffering, a gainful suffering.

Ok you are not realizing that 1 Corinthians 3 does not support the belief in purgatory, do you understand? “The day” will reveal it is the same as the “judgement day” when Jesus returns of 1 Cor 4:1-5. You are taking that passage out of context, taking an ordinary word in Paul and not giving it it’s usual meaning, and then trying to flex suffering.

In Rom 8:17 when it speaks of us suffering with Christ, it is the same as Rom 5:1-5, which is referring to tribulations and persecutions in this life, not some purgatorial process when the body is dead. It’s kind of ridiculous that arguments like this would be made. Im sure none of you have noticed the context of 1 Corinthians 3 - 4:1-5. Why do you feel you can give the word “suffering” any meaning you’d like?

 

[Actaeon]

Ok you are not realizing that 1 Corinthians 3 does not support the belief in purgatory, do you understand? “The day” will reveal it is the same as the “judgement day” when Jesus returns of 1 Cor 4:1-5. You are taking that passage out of context, taking an ordinary word in Paul and not giving it it’s usual meaning, and then trying to flex suffering.

Did I use 1 Cor 3 to justify purgatory? I didn’t think I did… Although I seem to recall referencing Revelation.

And I think we’ve backtracked: we’ve covered that you believe just like the catholic doctrine regarding the need for purification from all impurity before entering into heaven… and yet you’re still arguing that such purification is somehow wrong to teach (even though you yourself espoused the idea).

I get that you think that suffering is involved, but that is simply not true. If you’ll read the whole section of the catechism on purgatory, you will find that while cleansing fire is mentioned, the word suffering, or any sort of idea indicating suffering, is not.

Please don’t confuse theological extrapolation with doctrine. We KNOW there is a purification process after death such that no impure thing will enter heaven… that much even you agree on. SOME theologians posit that “cleansing fire” will involve some suffering of some kind.

So your disagreement is not with catholic teaching, but with a common theological extrapolation of Catholic teaching.

In Rom 8:17 when it speaks of us suffering with Christ, it is the same as Rom 5:1-5, which is referring to tribulations and persecutions in this life, not some purgatorial process when the body is dead. It’s kind of ridiculous that arguments like this would be made. Im sure none of you have noticed the context of 1 Corinthians 3 - 4:1-5. Why do you feel you can give the word “suffering” any meaning you’d like?

I personally am not one who thinks of the cleansing fire of purgatory or the fires of damnation in hell as “physical fires” inflicting physical suffering…

However, suffering DOES have a meaning… and we agree on what suffering means (or else we can simply turn to the dictionary to come to a common definition). What I was discussing in my previous post was the moral implications of suffering, not its nature and definition. To wit, materialism (a heresy) has promoted the idea that all suffering and discomfort are morally bad, while all comfort and pleasure is morally good. I’m simply saying that such an understanding of the moral consequences of suffering (saying that all suffering is a bad thing) is extremely simplistic, and in some cases morally wrong in application.

 

[steve_b]

Ok you are not realizing that 1 Corinthians 3 does not support the belief in purgatory, do you understand? “The day” will reveal it is the same as the “judgement day” when Jesus returns of 1 Cor 4:1-5.

Jesus comes to every person at the moment of death. THAT’s when a person is judged. They don’t wait till the end of the world which might be billions or trillions of years away. They are not in some sleep state waiting for the end time. They’ve already experienced the end of time. And they are judged at death. They are either immediately in heaven, purgatory, or hell.
EY:

You are taking that passage out of context, taking an ordinary word in Paul and not giving it it’s usual meaning, and then trying to flex suffering.

In Rom 8:17 when it speaks of us suffering with Christ, it is the same as Rom 5:1-5, which is referring to tribulations and persecutions in this life, not some purgatorial process when the body is dead.

The distinction was made between suffering in this life and suffering in the next.

[1 Cor 3:12-15] does not occur here. It happens in the next life, to the one who is saved, the day they die. Since time is non existent in eternity, this process in our terms might be quick or it could be long. God makes the call
EY:

It’s kind of ridiculous that arguments like this would be made. Im sure none of you have noticed the context of 1 Corinthians 3 - 4:1-5. Why do you feel you can give the word “suffering” any meaning you’d like?

Why doubt that happiness as well as suffering occurs in the next life? Jesus was absolutely clear when He told the following story. Happiness and suffering are both recounted in the next life

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20* And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22* The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. **The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25* But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them*.’ 30* And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Some observations

• Was sentencing immediate after death? Yes
• The rich man was in torment. Presumably because of what Abraham told him. Abraham said to him, he had the law (Moses) and the prophets to guide him too, just like the rest of his family. Obviously he didn’t follow what he should have been following and that’s why he is where he is.
• Obviously the poor man followed the law (Moses) and the prophets so when Judgement occured for him, he went to the bosom of Abraham.
• As you can see, sentencing for both was immediate after death. Just like (1 Cor 3:12-15) will occur after death and before heaven for only the saved. Whether saved or not saved, there won’t be any waiting after death, to know what one’s future is.

When the 2nd coming occurs, which could be +/- billions of years from now, that event won’t change the trajectory of souls who have already been judged and are in either heaven or hell. They are there for all eternity. No other judgement for them. When the end of the world occurs, those still alive will be judged, and for all those who have died, this reunites the resurrected body with the soul that is either in heaven or hell. Purgatory at that point ceases to exist. All those who are in Purgatory at that time, are then in heaven.
And Paul says the following [1 Cor 3:12-15] will involve suffering, iow, it may not be completely pleasant.

 

[danonwaveland]

Thanks, all, for this conversation. I am struck by the cordial nature of the discussion and the respect you all seem to have for each other. Very informative and very enjoyable. May God’s Holy Spirit enlighten us all.

God bless,
Dan

 

[Zackeera]

As you point out, it is a good passage to use. For example

one could ask

Q: Why would Paul teach the following will happen to a soul that is saved?

May I ask - what is being burned in the passage of scripture you quoted? The soul or the works? I think the answer to that will shed some light on this passage in relation to any thoughts one might have towards purgatory.

 

[steve_b]

May I ask - what is being burned in the passage of scripture you quoted? The soul or the works? I think the answer to that will shed some light on this passage in relation to any thoughts one might have towards purgatory.

Think of it as a purification process for the soul. Memory intellect and will, all immortal properties of the soul, are all functional after we die, and they will be forever, reordered. As far as quick or long in terms of time this process takes, this all occurs outside of time.

 

[pablope]

May I ask - what is being burned in the passage of scripture you quoted? The soul or the works? I think the answer to that will shed some light on this passage in relation to any thoughts one might have towards purgatory.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Let’s take a look at perhaps another very crucial passage in this regard. First Corinthians, chapter 3. I must admit that theologically and psychologically 1st Corinthians 3 basically sealed it up. It was all sewn up for me when I worked through this, praying, studying, pondering. I think it’s strong and clear. In 1st Corinthians 3, he’s talking about how we are in Christ. We’re temples with Christ. We’re His body and yet we are also temples as well. We are God’s field, His building, and in verse 9, the kind of building we are. There’s a temple and he goes on to describe how we have got to be careful then. If we are all God’s temples, temples of the Holy Spirit, we better be very circumspect and prudent about the way we build.

“According to the grace of God given me,” verse 10, “like a skilled master builder, I laid a foundation and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.” The foundation work is Christ. Make no mistake about that. Our works are not our foundation unless our house is going to crumble. Then we and our works are not the foundation, but Christ is the foundation. “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become manifest for the day will disclose it. Because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test which sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.” In addition to salvation, he will receive a reward: thrones, crowns, whatever you want to say.

“If any man’s work is burned up,” the wood, the hay and the straw, “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.” Notice that wood is not as flammable as hay is consumed. So there are degrees of good works, gold and silver and so on, and degrees of venial sins. Jesus even talked about somebody would receive fewer stripes than another person. He talks about how, I think in Matthew 5, you won’t get out until you pay the last farthing or the last penny. So it depends on what we have done, what we will do because we have got to be purified in the Holy Spirit of God, which is fiery love. We have got to take up our cross. We are saved by Christ who is our foundation, but we have to build and what we build has to undergo the fiery judgment on the day.

 

[Zackeera]

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

He talks about how, I think in Matthew 5, you won’t get out until you pay the last farthing or the last penny.

I’ve heard before that Matthew 5:26 has been used to build onto the doctrine of purgatory. I’ve read it over and over but don’t see that it has any bearing on it. To be brief, beginning with v. 25 (below), I read it to say that as a result of a civil dispute, one could be thrown into prison and be required to pay a price and that individual wouldn’t get out until the last “penny” is paid.

“25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.” Matt 5

How it could be interpreted to describe purgatory befuddles me. We do know from scripture that money can never buy one’s way out of any sin in God’s eyes. However, here on earth, money our judicial system does often use money as a means to pay debt to society.

 

[pablope]

I’ve heard before that Matthew 5:26 has been used to build onto the doctrine of purgatory. I’ve read it over and over but don’t see that it has any bearing on it. To be brief, beginning with v. 25 (below), I read it to say that as a result of a civil dispute, one could be thrown into prison and be required to pay a price and that individual wouldn’t get out until the last “penny” is paid.

“25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.” Matt 5

How it could be interpreted to describe purgatory befuddles me. We do know from scripture that money can never buy one’s way out of any sin in God’s eyes. However, here on earth, money our judicial system does often use money as a means to pay debt to society.

Hi, Zackeera…this is a parable and Jesus is making an analogy of purgatory.

Prison is like purgatory…for cleansing…and you will only get out once you are completely cleansed of sin…which is equated to paying the last penny.

This is the explanation in the article I provided:

• Let’s turn to Matthew 5:26. There Jesus says, “Make friends quickly with your accuser,” in verse 25, “while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hands you over to the judge and the judge to the guard and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.” What is the presumption? Once you pay the last penny, you are going to get out. Where are you going to go then? To hell? No. You paid the last penny. You’re going to enter into the blessing at that point but only after you’ve paid the fine. *

Once you have paid the last penny…cleansds yourself of the last vestiges of sin…then you can go on to heaven. Keep in mind…there is no sin in heaven…sin cannot enter heaven, if you have sin, you cannot be in the presence of the Lord…as Rev 21 says…Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Further down in the article…*The fact is, if we are truly sorry, we will see the need and the propriety for restitution. Not just monetary, physical restitution for broken windows, but psychical, spiritual restitution for broken souls.

The people we’ve hurt, the people we’ve refused to bless, the people we’ve refused to give ourselves to and to give Christ to, the incredible opportunities that we’ve missed because we were lazy and slothful, proud and arrogant. Those memories will burn more than any physical fire when our souls encounter the fiery love of Christ in the Holy Spirit. *

 

[steve_b]

I’ve heard before that Matthew 5:26 has been used to build onto the doctrine of purgatory. I’ve read it over and over but don’t see that it has any bearing on it. To be brief, beginning with v. 25 (below), I read it to say that as a result of a civil dispute, one could be thrown into prison and be required to pay a price and that individual wouldn’t get out until the last “penny” is paid.

“25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge,* the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.* 26* Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.*” Matt 5

How it could be interpreted to describe purgatory befuddles me. We do know from scripture that money can never buy one’s way out of any sin in God’s eyes. However, here on earth, money our judicial system does often use money as a means to pay debt to society.

In context, Jesus is very much making a simily about the next life using current life’s terms.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Jesus is the judge in this example, and He speaks of settling differences in this life before placing gifts at the altar, which connects forgiveness in this life with forgiveness in the next, and He speaks of 2 prisons

the prisons He speaks of are

• 1 permanent prison (hell),
• 1 temporary prison (? )

Therefore

Jesus connects this life with the next in His entire example…

• Hell which is in the next life, is permanent,
• but in His example of 2 prisons, one is permanent but one is not permanent.
• Jesus is not limiting his example of prison to this life alone

what prison is in the next life, that is not Hell, that one will ultimately be freed from?

 

[Zackeera]

Hi, Zackeera…this is a parable and Jesus is making an analogy of purgatory.

Prison is like purgatory…for cleansing…and you will only get out once you are completely cleansed of sin…which is equated to paying the last penny.

I respectfully disagree. There is no mention of purgatory here. Instead, I agree with a commentary which is found at preceptaustin.org/matthew_523-26.htm:

"Opponent (476) (antidikos from antí = against + díke = cause or suit at law) refers to an opponent in a lawsuit. Antidikos is used once of the devil (see notes 1 Peter 5:8) the accuser of the brethren. Roman law provided that a plaintiff could bring the accused with him to face the judge. The two themselves could settle the matter on the way, but not after the court became involved.

Here the antidikos, the opponent or adversary is some kind of opponent to whom we apparently owe money and who is apparently in a position to take legal action, without further specific information as to his identity or the nature of the case.

On the way or on the road while not specific adds obviously emphasis to the urgency of the call to reconcile. In other words, don’t wait until you get to the lobby of the courthouse! Once the legal process is set in motion, the judge will pass sentence and its too late to settle. Don’t miss the golden opportunity to settle. It is interesting that the background here seems to be non-Jewish since the Jews did not imprison for debt.

Freeman in Manners and Customs of the Bible has the following summary of Mt 5:25:…

According to Roman law, if a person had a quarrel that he could not settle privately, he had the right to order his adversary to accompany him to the praetor (Roman magistrate ranking below a consul and having chiefly judicial functions). If he refused, the prosecutor took someone present to witness by saying, “May I take you to witness?” If the person consented, he offered the tip of his ear, which the prosecutor touched; a form that was observed toward witnesses in some other legal ceremonies among the Romans. Then the plaintiff (one bringing the legal action) might drag the defendant to court by force in any way, even by the neck, but worthless persons such as thieves and robbers might be dragged before the judge without the formality of calling a witness. If on the way to the judge the difficulty was settled, no further legal steps were taken. Jesus refers to this custom in the text. When the accused is thus legally seized by the accuser, he is urged to make up his quarrel while on the way to the judge, so that no further legal process should be necessary." (Freeman, J. M., & Chadwick, H. J. Manners & Customs of the Bible. 1996. Whitaker House)

Jesus is showing us the importance of reconciliation between opposing people and that it is much better to reconcile rather than go all the way to court where the matter will be judged and of course there’s the real possibility that one could be thrown into prison until the debt is paid.

I’ll answer the rest of your post by incorporating it below with my response to steve b.

 

[Zackeera]

n context, Jesus is very much making a simily about the next life using current life’s terms.

Jesus does refer to hell, but the incident He refers to in which one can be thrown into prison until the last cent is paid has to do with an earthly situation in which He indicates it is much better to be reconciled with an adversary than go all the way to court.

the prisons He speaks of are

• 1 permanent prison (hell),
• 1 temporary prison (? )

Therefore

I agree with you that hell is a permanent prison, but the temporary prison is our earthly judicial system,

what prison is in the next life, that is not Hell, that one will ultimately be freed from?

I think you are referring to “purgatory” but I don’t believe that is scriptural. So what does the Bible say about how we are cleansed from our sin? 1 John 1:5-10 answers this beautifully:

"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. * If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.* If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Isn’t that beautiful? The blood of Jesus cleanses us and keeps on cleansing us. We can enter into His peace in heaven based on that cleansing. His blood is sufficient for our sin - absolutely amazing!

 

[pablope]

I respectfully disagree. There is no mention of purgatory here. Instead, I agree with a commentary which is found at preceptaustin.org/matthew_523-26.htm:

Hmmm…what makes this site more authoritative than the Catholic Church understanding of this verse for 2000 years?

What/where is this site’s authority to interpret scripture as they have? Anyway, just questions for you to ponder.

"Opponent (476) (antidikos from antí = against + díke = cause or suit at law) refers to an opponent in a lawsuit. Antidikos is used once of the devil (see notes 1 Peter 5:8) the accuser of the brethren. Roman law provided that a plaintiff could bring the accused with him to face the judge. The two themselves could settle the matter on the way, but not after the court became involved.

 

[Goodcreature]

I just discovered this thread, so I thought that I might contribute somewhat.

Just to let it be known, I’m currently 15, and still learning about my faith, for which purpose this forum has been incredibly helpful.

Anyway, some Protestant friends of mine had asked me some questions they had about the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, namely its existence. So I went to my priest and asked him. The very first passage he went to was Matthew 18:21-35. “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go…Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.”

I believe it’s significant, as does my priest, that it’s mentioned that the servant was tortured “until he should pay back the debt.” This implies that the servant’s torture does have an end, versus Hell, where the torture is eternal. The verse certainly can’t be talking about Heaven, it isn’t talking about Hell, so it must mean some other state. Also, the mention of paying for past debts could be implying that a form of penance is in order for a person’s shortcomings.

I am in no way am asking to engage in a debate; there’s no way I could keep up with you guys. I was just curious as to why this passage hasn’t been mentioned yet. Have fun with it!

 

[steve_b]

Jesus does refer to hell, but the incident He refers to in which one can be thrown into prison until the last cent is paid has to do with an earthly situation in which He indicates it is much better to be reconciled with an adversary than go all the way to court.

People already know all about prisons in this life. They don’t need a refresher course. Jesus is using this life and comparing it to the next. He does not disavow there is prison in the next life, that is temporary, vs only one that is permanent. They both exist.

Paul says, dieing in venial sin, might require a short stay in prison that is temporary, but designed for purification [1 Cor 3:11-15] before entrance into heaven, where nothing unclean can enter. [Rev 21:27]

sin makes us an adversary to God. And John shows us there is a distinction in sin between mortal (deadly) sin, and non mortal sin (venial sin). Paul says dieing in mortal sin will land us in Hell.

example of mortal sin (it’s the consequence that identifies mortal sin)

• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

As John teaches (end of page), one can pray for non mortal sin and it will be forgiven. He doesn’t say that’s so for mortal sin.
Z:

I agree with you that hell is a permanent prison, but the temporary prison is our earthly judicial system,

[1 Cor 3:11-15] is in the next life.
Z:

I think you are referring to “purgatory” but I don’t believe that is scriptural. So what does the Bible say about how we are cleansed from our sin? 1 John 1:5-10 answers this beautifully:

"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Isn’t that beautiful? The blood of Jesus cleanses us and keeps on cleansing us. We can enter into His peace in heaven based on that cleansing. His blood is sufficient for our sin - absolutely amazing!

While we’re on 1 Jn,

1 Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

As you note, Protestants don’t believe in Purgatory. They also don’t believe in mortal sin either, true?. Looking @ 1 Jn 5: and the mortal sins above, definitionally, a word for lead to death is mortal. And John also says not all sin is deadly / mortal. John gives us a clear distinction then between mortal and non mortal sin…true? He’s absolutely clear that one can pray for venial sin (non mortal) and it will be forgiven, but for mortal sin that’s not the case…true?

So a Protestant might ask,

• how do we get rid of mortal sin if one shouldn’t pray about that kind of sin for forgiveness?
• We all die because everyone sins. But since the soul is immortal and can’t die, what is John speaking of by some sins lead to death and other sins don’t lead to death?

 

[pablope]

Jesus

So what does the Bible say about how we are cleansed from our sin?

 

[Zackeera]

Perhaps the easiest way to answer your many thoughts on this is by this passage from Romans 5:8-11.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Another thought: God demands that the penalty for sin is death and the only thing that can pay for that penalty is the blood of a perfect unblemished sacrifice. In the OT, an unblemished lamb had to die. But there is a greater, more perfect sacrifice and that was the blood of one perfect man/God - Jesus Christ. Anything less than that is insuffiicient. The blood of Christ is sufficient to wash away the stain of all sin.

 

[steve_b]

Perhaps the easiest way to answer your many thoughts on this is by this passage from Romans 5:8-11.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Your interpretation would have Paul contradicting himself in this passage with many other passages he writes about, and that means the HS who inspires Paul to write what Jesus taught, also contradicts what Jesus taught?.

This passage from Romans shows God made the first move towards us, not the other way around. Jesus sacrifice however, requires we who are being saved, to respond to, and obey, all that He taught and commanded.
Z:

Another thought: God demands that the penalty for sin is death and the only thing that can pay for that penalty is the blood of a perfect unblemished sacrifice. In the OT, an unblemished lamb had to die. But there is a greater, more perfect sacrifice and that was the blood of one perfect man/God - Jesus Christ. Anything less than that is insuffiicient. The blood of Christ is sufficient to wash away the stain of all sin.

Yet not all sin leads to death.

1 Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

What is the death spoken of here? Loss of sanctifying grace in the soul, which one needs to get to heaven.

That’s the soul who goes to hell… iow they won’t inherit heaven, they aren’t forgiven, and won’t be saved from the rath of God. And since the soul is immortal, and can’t die, and has forever, memory intellect and will, being excluded from heaven forever, is associated with the death John is speaking of.

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice the consequences for those sins? Being excluded from heaven isn’t idle threats. And notice, Paul isn’t speaking to pagans, he’s speaking to the Church.

As an aside, given the title of the thread, Romans 5:8-11 is being taken out of context…