Confused on what are grave reasons

[snarf1978]

I know I should probably ask a priest about this but I just want to put this out there. I have one child (almost 2) and am a convert.

I love my son dearly but I am struggling as a mum. I am feeling resentful because I feel like I am unable to do many things that I want to do to support my family and my own mental and physical health. I got pregnant just as I finished my master’s degree but I need time to study for certifications to make myself more marketable and that time is just not there much less take care of my health (for high blood pressure,anxiety and depression) by at least working out which i CERTAINLY do not have time for. I canceled my gym membership. Many of the self-care strategies that I had in place before I had my child are now out of the window. I am tired and cranky and down all the time more so when I am sleep deprived.

We also have financial troubles and student loans out the wazoo and I am stressed beyond belief. Despite asking my partner for more help I still have to micromanage what he does because he just does not pay attention to details (e.g. asking me over and over again what the dose of medicine is for the baby). So it feels like I am not really able to delegate anything. Yes, I am feeling overwhelmed. Honestly, before I had children I wanted at least 3. I know that a contraceptive mentality played into that decision. Then I became Catholic and then I had the surprise baby which I learned to accept. But, honestly, I do not know if I want to have another child at all much less 3 or more.

I am struggling with being open to life. I am not sure if I am or if I want to be. I feel like my son should have a sibling but i don’t think I could handle it. Plus, I have reverted to using condoms to prevent conception because I do not want a SURPRISE baby. My partner is not Catholic so he’s okay with it. I feel bad about it however, I know it is a sin but I just am too tired, stressed, and trying my best to be as good a mother as I can for this child. But, everyone I know says that having another baby is like the work x2 much less 3. If I am stressed now and I have spoken to my husband about it and he still defers much of hte child raising to me then I would really be stupid if I have another child with things as it is. I dont know if i can deal with that. Don’t get me wrong. He loves me and does his best. He is just clueless and kind of acts like a kid which means I already kind of have two kids.

I am struggling. Is NFP acceptable indefinitely? What are grave reasons? Isn’t my intention or lack of intention to have more children a contraceptive mentality? I am so confused. The idea of having another child right now has me so distressed. I already feel like my life is over and that I look on the next years of child raising as interesting but so much work. I am tired. Yes, there is a sense of poor me from my post but I take care of EVERYTHING in the house and the family. I am the housekeeper, accountant, assistant, nurse and everything else. My husband just cooks dinner.

I dont know what else to say. But, how I feel right now makes me deeply question the whole open to life thing when married. I feel like we are barely handling things as it is. I have no support. Both of us are immigrants. Alll of our friends are young and single and we have no family to count on. It’s just us and the world.

 

[thewanderer]

It sounds to me like your reasons are very clearly sufficient to allow you to avoid children for the moment, which can mean avoiding indefinitely until your circumstances change. Your intention to avoid children is not wrong, but your current methods are. (Not to mention that condoms really aren’t all that reliable. NFP when practiced correctly is much more effective than condoms, 98/99% effective) You have both serious health (which includes the fact that you feel completely overwhelmed) and financial reasons to avoid, each of which would be a sufficient reason on their own. Don’t be so afraid of having a contraceptive mentality that you drive yourself to a breakdown or put your family on the streets. We are called to live our lives with prudence and not that many people are called to live lives of heroic virtue. Using prudence to make sure your life is liveable and that you don’t feel like you are constantly drowning is a good thing. Use NFP and don’t feel guilty about it.

 

[snarf1978]

It sounds to me like your reasons are very clearly sufficient to allow you to avoid children for the moment, which can mean avoiding indefinitely until your circumstances change. Your intention to avoid children is not wrong, but your current methods are. (Not to mention that condoms really aren’t all that reliable. NFP when practiced correctly is much more effective than condoms, 98/99% effective) You have both serious health (which includes the fact that you feel completely overwhelmed) and financial reasons to avoid, each of which would be a sufficient reason on their own. Don’t be so afraid of having a contraceptive mentality that you drive yourself to a breakdown or put your family on the streets. We are called to live our lives with prudence and not that many people are called to live lives of heroic virtue. Using prudence to make sure your life is liveable and that you don’t feel like you are constantly drowning is a good thing. Use NFP and don’t feel guilty about it.

Thank you for replying I would love to practice NFP I do try to track my symptoms and avoid sex on those days. But I would ideally like to do sympto-thermal but my irregular sleep habits (napping, staying up late, frequent wakings at night) makes the prospect not to reliable. I don’t know.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Thank you for replying I would love to practice NFP I do try to track my symptoms and avoid sex on those days. But I would ideally like to do sympto-thermal but my irregular sleep habits (napping, staying up late, frequent wakings at night) makes the prospect not to reliable. I don’t know.

I’ve never had those habits affect my sympto-thermal charting… personally.

 

[maryjk]

Thank you for replying I would love to practice NFP I do try to track my symptoms and avoid sex on those days. But I would ideally like to do sympto-thermal but my irregular sleep habits (napping, staying up late, frequent wakings at night) makes the prospect not to reliable. I don’t know.

I do all of those things and have used NFP/STM for years.

And remember it isn’t “grave” it is “just” reasons. You don’t have to be so poor you are starving, or so mentally disabled that you are in a locked ward or have a physical problem so bad that you will die if you become pregnant. You have to have a just reason.

 

[Kelfa28]

Thank you for replying I would love to practice NFP I do try to track my symptoms and avoid sex on those days. But I would ideally like to do sympto-thermal but my irregular sleep habits (napping, staying up late, frequent wakings at night) makes the prospect not to reliable. I don’t know.

That shouldn’t effect the temps. I used STM while pumping milk and caring for a newborn since my cycles came back very quickly. My sleep schedule was far from regular. You just need to make sure you take your temp right away when you wake up in the morning, before you get out of bed. That is the most important part…getting up and then taking your temp will make your temps far more inaccurate then having an irregular sleep schedule.

My temps were still easy to read and we avoided for the amount of time my husband and I discerned we needed to and then planned our next baby without incident.

 

[silicasandra]

I have had post partum depression after the birth of both of my children, and I felt many of the same things that you describe (even the DH who doesn’t always get it even if he’s well-intentioned. )

Keep in mind, too, that even though right now you’re in a space where you don’t ever feel like you could have another child, that NFP is not permanent. You don’t have to say, “OK, I am now going to abstain when I’m fertile until after menopause.” You are just saying, this month, with your husband, “God, we will accept any blessing you give us, but we don’t *feel ready *right now.” In time you may feel ready.

Now that I have two children (one 27 months, one 11 weeks) it is really crazy again. But I know that it does settle down. Your child will get more independent and you will be able to teach him to help you. I think you also need to teach your husband to help you. Yes, it’s frustrating. My husband is ridiculously smart but the first time he made eggs by himself he asked me about 1000 questions, while I’m muttering to myself that I’d been able to do it since I was four. But many men are never taught domestic skills, even though I think they’re valuable for everyone. Giving up on him and doing yourself is an absolute recipe for disaster in the long term, whether or not you have more children. He won’t learn, and your child/ren might not either - “well, I can’t ever please Mom, so, I’ll let her clean up the mess.”

If he’s not receptive to this, you might consider counseling together. That helped with us, because until then my husband just could not understand WHY I got so upset about his not helping/not helping the way I wanted, because the things that upset me just didn’t bother him at all. And I learned much better ways of communicating that to him, and how to deal when things weren’t done to my standards.

(By the way, I’m not saying do this just so you’ll be comfortable having another child - I think it would help your marriage regardless.)

 

[Rachel126]

If you go read the English translation of Humanae Vitae and the CCC, nowhere does it say “grave” reasons. That’s a mistranslation of HV from the 60’s that somehow persists to this day. Those documents are available on the vatican’s website in official English translations (other languages too). The latin word “gravis” does not translate exactly to “grave” in English. Instead it uses words like “serious reasons” and “just reasons” for postponing pregnancy for a time or indefinitely. The CCC says that both a large family and a smaller family are acceptable, so long as the couple’s motives are not “selfish.”

There are people who post on here who will make it sound as if only a life or death reason is acceptable for using NFP. That is simply not the teaching of the Church, and they would be hard pressed to come up with any official documents stating such, because they don’t exist. The Church, in her wisdom, leaves this up to the couple, understanding that some people have the resources (not just financial but also emotional and spiritual) to raise a large family and others do not. What would be a serious reason for one couple may not be serious for another. As always, talking it over with a priest can help.
You can search for this question on the ask an apologist forum as well.

 

[Jimdandy]

Are you married to your partner?

 

[thewanderer]

If you go read the English translation of Humanae Vitae and the CCC, nowhere does it say “grave” reasons. That’s a mistranslation of HV from the 60’s that somehow persists to this day. Those documents are available on the vatican’s website in official English translations (other languages too). The latin word “gravis” does not translate exactly to “grave” in English. Instead it uses words like “serious reasons” and “just reasons” for postponing pregnancy for a time or indefinitely. The CCC says that both a large family and a smaller family are acceptable, so long as the couple’s motives are not “selfish.”

There are people who post on here who will make it sound as if only a life or death reason is acceptable for using NFP. That is simply not the teaching of the Church, and they would be hard pressed to come up with any official documents stating such, because they don’t exist. The Church, in her wisdom, leaves this up to the couple, understanding that some people have the resources (not just financial but also emotional and spiritual) to raise a large family and others do not. What would be a serious reason for one couple may not be serious for another. As always, talking it over with a priest can help.
You can search for this question on the ask an apologist forum as well.

 

[snarf1978]

Are you married to your partner?

Yes, we have been married for five years.

 

[snarf1978]

I have had post partum depression after the birth of both of my children, and I felt many of the same things that you describe (even the DH who doesn’t always get it even if he’s well-intentioned. )

Keep in mind, too, that even though right now you’re in a space where you don’t ever feel like you could have another child, that NFP is not permanent. You don’t have to say, “OK, I am now going to abstain when I’m fertile until after menopause.” You are just saying, this month, with your husband, “God, we will accept any blessing you give us, but we don’t *feel ready *right now.” In time you may feel ready.

Now that I have two children (one 27 months, one 11 weeks) it is really crazy again. But I know that it does settle down. Your child will get more independent and you will be able to teach him to help you. I think you also need to teach your husband to help you. Yes, it’s frustrating. My husband is ridiculously smart but the first time he made eggs by himself he asked me about 1000 questions, while I’m muttering to myself that I’d been able to do it since I was four. But many men are never taught domestic skills, even though I think they’re valuable for everyone. Giving up on him and doing yourself is an absolute recipe for disaster in the long term, whether or not you have more children. He won’t learn, and your child/ren might not either - “well, I can’t ever please Mom, so, I’ll let her clean up the mess.”

If he’s not receptive to this, you might consider counseling together. That helped with us, because until then my husband just could not understand WHY I got so upset about his not helping/not helping the way I wanted, because the things that upset me just didn’t bother him at all. And I learned much better ways of communicating that to him, and how to deal when things weren’t done to my standards.

(By the way, I’m not saying do this just so you’ll be comfortable having another child - I think it would help your marriage regardless.)

I would love for him to go to counseling with me or even just confer with a trusted guy friend because sometimes he makes me feel as if I am the ONLY one who has these issues and that I am overreacting when i get angry that he is asking me how much the dose is for the flu medicine for the umpteenth time already.

 

[Xantippe]

“Many of the self-care strategies that I had in place before I had my child are now out of the window. I am tired and cranky and down all the time more so when I am sleep deprived.”

I suggest you get a jogging stroller and spend as many mornings as you can outside and get as much physical activity as you can together with your child. I’d also start looking for a good, inexpensive preschool or parents’ day out program. You may also need to seek treatment for psychological issues, as I think your feelings are unusual for a mother of a single 2-year-old.

“We also have financial troubles and student loans out the wazoo and I am stressed beyond belief.”

Can you get a deferment?

“Despite asking my partner for more help I still have to micromanage what he does because he just does not pay attention to details (e.g. asking me over and over again what the dose of medicine is for the baby). So it feels like I am not really able to delegate anything. Yes, I am feeling overwhelmed.”

Many women have similar issues with their husbands. My suggestion would be to transfer responsibility to him for a number of your less mentally demanding tasks. Example: Although I am an SAHM, my husband does the dishes just about every night. Meanwhile, I am responsible for more finicky, detail-oriented stuff, like laundry or scheduling. Over the years, he has really grown in domestic skills, and can now replace a toilet or make a birthday cake. Put in as much time as it takes to train your husband to do stuff around the house, be positive, and let him do things his way, as long as it’s not dangerous.

For the medicine, I would encourage you to hold onto that responsibility. It’s very dangerous to accidentally overdose small children, which could easily happen if both of you decide to dose the kid. A log with records of temperature, times, and doses is a good idea. I would also encourage you to write the dosage on the bottle in Sharpie.

“Honestly, before I had children I wanted at least 3. I know that a contraceptive mentality played into that decision. Then I became Catholic and then I had the surprise baby which I learned to accept. But, honestly, I do not know if I want to have another child at all much less 3 or more.”

Get your head straight, make peace with your husband on chores, and let your 2-year-old get bigger–things may look very different in a year or two.

“My partner is not Catholic so he’s okay with it. I feel bad about it however, I know it is a sin but I just am too tired, stressed, and trying my best to be as good a mother as I can for this child. But, everyone I know says that having another baby is like the work x2 much less 3.”

Yes, a second closely spaced child is really hard. A lot of us who find one a breeze (and that’s not you) really struggle with a second child, as toddlers and infants have pretty much totally incompatible needs, despite being close in age. I have two who are 2 years 8 months apart (i.e. exactly the spacing you’d have if you conceived today) and it was really tough. However, they are now 11 and 8 and we have an infant, and with that spacing, three is much easier than two was.

“If I am stressed now and I have spoken to my husband about it and he still defers much of hte child raising to me then I would really be stupid if I have another child with things as it is. I dont know if i can deal with that. Don’t get me wrong. He loves me and does his best. He is just clueless and kind of acts like a kid which means I already kind of have two kids.”

Can you start sending him to the park on weekends with the toddler for a couple hours while you catch up?

“I am struggling. Is NFP acceptable indefinitely? What are grave reasons? Isn’t my intention or lack of intention to have more children a contraceptive mentality? I am so confused. The idea of having another child right now has me so distressed.”

Just play it by ear.

“I already feel like my life is over and that I look on the next years of child raising as interesting but so much work. I am tired. Yes, there is a sense of poor me from my post but I take care of EVERYTHING in the house and the family. I am the housekeeper, accountant, assistant, nurse and everything else. My husband just cooks dinner.”

Speaking as a person who doesn’t cook much, there is no “just cooks dinner.” Cooking dinner is a huge big deal. Keeping reassigning chores until you find a division that is fair, and then feel free to make changes as your life changes. Bear in mind that if he is watching the kid while you are doing something, you are both working.

“I dont know what else to say. But, how I feel right now makes me deeply question the whole open to life thing when married. I feel like we are barely handling things as it is. I have no support. Both of us are immigrants. Alll of our friends are young and single and we have no family to count on. It’s just us and the world.”

You’ve got to meet other young mothers. Your life will be 100% better once you have 2 or 3 trusted friends to help you cope. I know it isn’t easy–it took me years to achieve a social life I was happy with, but it’s no wonder you feel terrible if none of the people you are friends with understand your situation.

“I would love for him to go to counseling with me or even just confer with a trusted guy friend because sometimes he makes me feel as if I am the ONLY one who has these issues and that I am overreacting when i get angry that he is asking me how much the dose is for the flu medicine for the umpteenth time already.”

Your situation is totally normal for a couple getting used to being a young family. There are a lot of growing pains and arguments in this situation. You owe it to your husband and your child to work through this stage of your life with love and wisdom. Don’t give up!

 

[snarf1978]

“Many of the self-care strategies that I had in place before I had my child are now out of the window. I am tired and cranky and down all the time more so when I am sleep deprived.”

I suggest you get a jogging stroller and spend as many mornings as you can outside and get as much physical activity as you can together with your child. I’d also start looking for a good, inexpensive preschool or parents’ day out program. You may also need to seek treatment for psychological issues, as I think your feelings are unusual for a mother of a single 2-year-old.

“We also have financial troubles and student loans out the wazoo and I am stressed beyond belief.”
…

Well I work outside the home so I am not isolated with my son. But, working full time and taking care of a household is extremely exhausting. I also do see a psychologist too and have medication. I do not feel like my depression is totally under control but neither am I unable to do anything (such as work and so on). Life just does NOT excite me and I am even more frustrated because it seems like one endless hamster treadmill. I know that feeling is not normal but I really have never seen things the other way around. I am just trying to do my best.

In regards to my student loan I am NOT able to get a deferment as I had already used that the first year after graduation once I got pregnant and I do not really think we can really prove financial hardship. We pay our bills but there is nothing left over for fun.

But, I suppose you are right. Just live with it. It just bothers me that I feel so guilty for sinning because I really do not feel like I can handle another child right now because even when a couple practices NFP aren’t they supposed to remain open to the possibility of new life?

 

[Xantippe]

“But, I suppose you are right. Just live with it.”

No–don’t just live with it. Work on yourself, continue doing what you’re doing with psychological help and medication, and get better.

You may feel like your on a treadmill and that things are always going to be equally bad, but things will change gradually for the better as your oldest child gets bigger and more responsible. A three year old is totally different from a two year old and a four year old is totally different from a three year old, etc.

“It just bothers me that I feel so guilty for sinning because I really do not feel like I can handle another child right now because even when a couple practices NFP aren’t they supposed to remain open to the possibility of new life?”

You’re not sinning by feeling overwhelmed.

Best wishes!

 

[underacloud]

snarf1978, please take this comment in the good spirit that it is offered…but you sound like a bit of a control freak. The way you talk about your life, your husband especially, and your child, it sounds as though the stress is at least augmented by the fact that things don’t go according to your own plan. The sooner you learn that God is in control, and allow Him that control, the happier you will be. Pray to know God’s will for you and to cooperate in achieving it.

That said, feeling overwhelmed is certainly a serious enough reason to postpone further pregnancy for now, and so to use NFP to avoid conception.

 

[snarf1978]

snarf1978, please take this comment in the good spirit that it is offered…but you sound like a bit of a control freak. The way you talk about your life, your husband especially, and your child, it sounds as though the stress is at least augmented by the fact that things don’t go according to your own plan. The sooner you learn that God is in control, and allow Him that control, the happier you will be. Pray to know God’s will for you and to cooperate in achieving it.

That said, feeling overwhelmed is certainly a serious enough reason to postpone further pregnancy for now, and so to use NFP to avoid conception.

Well yes, I do struggle with feeling out of control but I have to control so many things. My husband really just goes to work and comes home and watches tv, plays games, etc and if he FEELS like it cooks dinner (we end up eating out a lot because he’s too tired or whatever). I have to pay the bills, remember doctor’s visits, remember medicines, do laundry, clean, remember in laws birthdays, organize calendar and so on and so on. Maybe I should relax and trust in God but clearly it’s a little hard for me which is why I am struggling to accept another child!

 

[Xantippe]

“…remember in laws birthdays…”

I think I would tie that one up with ribbons and hand it back to your husband and if he drops the ball and anybody says boo to you about it, tell them that “we’ve decided we’ll each take care of our own families’ birthdays.” He can remember his own mom’s birthday, and if he doesn’t, so what? She’s not going to burst into flames.

After all, his relatives were having birthdays before you came along.

That isn’t a big one, but it should take a little stress off of you.

 

[Rau]

… It just bothers me that I feel so guilty for sinning because I really do not feel like I can handle another child right now because even when a couple practices NFP aren’t they supposed to remain open to the possibility of new life?

I’m not sure what you are asking here. Your circumstances (in my opinion) provide just circumstances for use of NFP. NFP used properly is extraordinarily effective (higher effectiveness than condoms). Your decision to use NFP is to be a month to month thing. Your decision may remain fixed for some years, it may change at some point - no one knows.

The following quote from the Archbishop of Denver may address your concern:

*The covenant which husband and wife enter at marriage requires that all intercourse remain open to the transmission of new life. This is what becoming “one flesh” implies: complete self-giving, without reservation or exception, just as Christ withheld nothing of Himself from His bride, the Church, by dying for her on the cross. Any intentional interference with the procreative nature of intercourse necessarily involves spouses’ withholding themselves from each other and from God, who is their partner in sacramental love. In effect, they steal something infinitely precious – themselves – from each other and from their Creator.

And this is why natural family planning (NFP) differs not merely in style but in moral substance from contraception as a means of regulating family size. NFP is not contraception. Rather, it is a method of fertility awareness and appreciation. It is an entirely different approach to regulating birth. NFP does nothing to attack fertility, withhold the gift of oneself from one’s spouse, or block the procreative nature of intercourse. The marriage covenant requires that each act of intercourse be fully an act of self-giving, and therefore open to the possibility of new life. But when, for good reasons, a husband and wife limit their intercourse to the wife’s natural periods of infertility during a month, they are simply observing a cycle which God Himself created in the woman. They are not subverting it. And so they are living within the law of God’s love. *

 

[snarf1978]

I’m not sure what you are asking here. Your circumstances (in my opinion) provide just circumstances for use of NFP. NFP used properly is extraordinarily effective (higher effectiveness than condoms). Your decision to use NFP is to be a month to month thing. Your decision may remain fixed for some years, it may change at some point - no one knows.

The following quote from the Archbishop of Denver may address your concern:

*The covenant which husband and wife enter at marriage requires that all intercourse remain open to the transmission of new life. This is what becoming “one flesh” implies: complete self-giving, without reservation or exception, just as Christ withheld nothing of Himself from His bride, the Church, by dying for her on the cross. Any intentional interference with the procreative nature of intercourse necessarily involves spouses’ withholding themselves from each other and from God, who is their partner in sacramental love. In effect, they steal something infinitely precious – themselves – from each other and from their Creator.

And this is why natural family planning (NFP) differs not merely in style but in moral substance from contraception as a means of regulating family size. NFP is not contraception. Rather, it is a method of fertility awareness and appreciation. It is an entirely different approach to regulating birth. NFP does nothing to attack fertility, withhold the gift of oneself from one’s spouse, or block the procreative nature of intercourse. The marriage covenant requires that each act of intercourse be fully an act of self-giving, and therefore open to the possibility of new life. But when, for good reasons, a husband and wife limit their intercourse to the wife’s natural periods of infertility during a month, they are simply observing a cycle which God Himself created in the woman. They are not subverting it. And so they are living within the law of God’s love. *

No, I understand what is meant. But what I mean to say is that my INTENT, mentally, I do NOT want to have a child right now. Am I not sinning then because my thoughts are not about giving myself to my husband but hoping and praying that I do not get pregnant? That’s why I feel like I am sinning. Would that not be having a contraceptive mentality?