Confused. Why did the Pope kiss the Koran?

[Dale_M]

Hi Soldier X, I realize you aren’t trying to pick a fight. Nor am I. But I wonder if we disagree or if we are misunderstanding one another.

Christians, to me, are not one of many groups to whom salvation is offered (and who have an easier time reaching it). Christians are the saved.

Indeed, Christ is saving. And the Catholic Church believes that outside the Church there is no salvation. How persons who are non-Christians in life are offered the opportunity to enter the Church (presumably after death) is known only to God. (847-848 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

However, the quote I mentioned earlier discussed religion at a general level, and not at a level of individuals. Persons who are Jewish or Muslim have an easier time entering the Church after death because they have been better prepared for it. At least that is my understanding of what the Catechism says.

I am curious, though, when you say Christians are the saved. Does the Anglican Church believe in Once Saved, Always Saved? Or is that your personal belief? Or am I misunderstanding you?

The Catholic Church believes that a person can only be saved through Christ, but that that person may reject Christ through his or her actions, despite vowing faith.

And I cannot accept that Islam’s teachings are based in any divine revelation and that Christ’s teachings are divine revelation. Both cannot be ultimately true, as God is pure Truth.

Truth sometimes is held in a matter of degrees. A belief or theory can be partially right, and yet wrong in many ways too.

Merely being “Abrahamic” is not what is required of the follower of Christ. Though there can be degrees of understanding, light, and truth in any belief system, it seems to me that the existence of multiple Abrahamic options for achieving salvation (that are even easier than the non-Abrahamic ones) undermines Scripture and Tradition.

The Catholic Church agrees with you that Christ and the Church are necessary for salvation. Being Jewish or Muslim is not enough. The portions of the Catechism I mentioned try to come to terms with our lack of knowledge of how salvation is offered to persons who never received a full understanding of Christ during their life on this planet. The Catholic Church does not believe that such persons are automatically denied salvation.

 

[Soldier_X]

I am curious, though, when you say Christians are the saved. Does the Anglican Church believe in Once Saved, Always Saved? Or is that your personal belief? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Short answer: The Anglican Church believes nothing and everything.

Better answer: I used to believe in OSAS, but after seeing several friends drop out of Christianity altogether, I now don’t know what to believe. I wasn’t trying to hint at OSAS or take it there. I was using Christians as shorthand for the Church. The two are synonymous for me. If I just opened up a Pandora’s Box of terminology, I apologize. I just meant that the Church/Christians are being saved by Christ, and as we remain in His Way, we can have confidence in that salvation. We cannot have confidence in salvation through other religions, whether we believe that Christ saves their followers (despite their beliefs) or not. Indeed, the lowliest follower of Christ, thanks to the Spirit’s regeneration, illumination, and guidance (both personally and through the Church), has more light and truth than the most brilliant scholar of a non-Christian religion. And I meant that the Church isn’t one of many vehicles that we hope will bring us to salvation. If one comes to faith outside the Church, one is now IN the Church (in a sense) and no longer a true part of the former system of belief. It doesn’t validate one’s former beliefs or indicate that they possess more or less truth if one is saved in spite of oneself or one’s religion/philosophy. Rather, it is a testament to the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel which is going throughout the entire world, even among those who do not yet know our Lord. He brings them out from darkness into light, and it’s hard for me, personally, to see much light in things that are ultimately of man and not of God.

I understand that this may differ, in terminology or meaning (or both) from what the Catholic Church or some of its individuals believe…it’s just where I am at the moment.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Read the Catechism section in context. It makes clear that the Muslims are the first among the non-Judeo-Christian people.

But why should they be first? If they are first that makes everyone else an underdog, and if they are the underdogs then I must stand up for them, I must make it known that those non-muslim underdogs outside the Church as just as precious in the sight of God as those firstclass muslims. It still doesn’t make any sense why they should be called the “first,” on what basis? Could you explain why they are “first”?

If you call yourself a Catholic, but have not read and studied the Catechism, you should be ashamed of yourself.

No, I haven’t read that part in the Catechism where one should go around telling other people they should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Dale_M]

I understand that this may differ, in terminology or meaning (or both) from what the Catholic Church or some of its individuals believe…it’s just where I am at the moment.

Thank you for your clear, and patient (when dealing with my ignorance) explanation.

BTW, my own beliefs are also up in flux, which is why I have taken pains to say things such as “the Catholic Church believes” or “this is what the Catholic Church teaches.”

 

[Deconi]

But why should they be first? If they are first that makes everyone else an underdog, and if they are the underdogs then I must stand up for them, I must make it known that those non-muslim underdogs outside the Church as just as precious in the sight of God as those firstclass muslims. It still doesn’t make any sense why they should be called the “first,” on what basis? Could you explain why they are “first”?

No, I haven’t read that part in the Catechism where one should go around telling other people they should be ashamed of themselves.

Since God created ALL things and EVERYONE, then the plan for salvation must AUTOMATICALLY extend to every soul that will exist.

That being the case, as ‘The Good News’ ripples outwards from ‘The Catholic Church’ (Christ Himself) first will be those who BELIEVE in The Creator for they are closer to the Truth than those who do not! Included in that number are the Muslims, stock of Abraham, AS MUCH as the Jews are.

You’ll note that ‘The Catholic Church’ would include all Christians as they would not have heard of Him except through The Church, albeit multitudes now have only “shards” of Catholicism!.. and think they know better!

Even the atheists are in the plan, as well as those who openly deny Christ and ‘worship’ the Enemy!..and The Plan is that ALL are availed salvation.

There are no ‘underdogs’ in the plan and opinions do not count.

It’s pretty simple.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Tell that to the Calvinists and the J-Dubs! LOL

Since God created ALL things and EVERYONE, then the plan for salvation must AUTOMATICALLY extend to every soul that will exist.

It’s pretty simple.

 

[Soldier_X]

Since God created ALL things and EVERYONE, then the plan for salvation must AUTOMATICALLY extend to every soul that will exist.

That’s definitely true, and that’s a good point. The plan of salvation is revealed even to Adam and Eve (the Seed of the woman), and in Abraham’s Seed would “all the nations of the earth” be blessed. Christ makes all things new and, when He is lifted up, draws all people to Himself.

 

[Soldier_X]

Thank you for your clear, and patient (when dealing with my ignorance) explanation.

BTW, my own beliefs are also up in flux, which is why I have taken pains to say things such as “the Catholic Church believes” or “this is what the Catholic Church teaches.”

I appreciate this discussion. This is what this forum is all about, and it helps me to learn from y’all (Yes, I’m Southern, so I can use a plural “you” and get away with it).

For what it’s worth, I looked up the Catholic Catechism and examined a few paragraphs before and after the infamous 841. I do think I understand it better now, as it is still calling all people into the Son’s Church. Maybe some stricter conservatives and some more liberal people take it out of context or misunderstand it. At least now, thanks to this discussion, I have a clearer picture of what is actually said and not said. I’m still not into kissing the Koran , but I’m better informed on the Catechism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s ok to kiss biographies of Willie Mays, Bill Shatner, Bruce Lee, or any Lord of the Rings novels. The Koran? Absolutely not.

I appreciate this discussion. This is what this forum is all about, and it helps me to learn from y’all (Yes, I’m Southern, so I can use a plural “you” and get away with it).

For what it’s worth, I looked up the Catholic Catechism and examined a few paragraphs before and after the infamous 841. I do think I understand it better now, as it is still calling all people into the Son’s Church. Maybe some stricter conservatives and some more liberal people take it out of context or misunderstand it. At least now, thanks to this discussion, I have a clearer picture of what is actually said and not said. I’m still not into kissing the Koran , but I’m better informed on the Catechism.

 

[The_Scott]

When I was lurking around here a month or so ago, I once saw someone mention a very good point. I apologize, I do not remember his/her name, but it went something like this: “Pope John Paul II always kissed the ground when he got off an airplane. It doesn’t mean he was worshiping a earth goddess.”

I think that summarizes this dilemma perfectly. Just because JPII kissed the Qu’ran, doesn’t mean he abides by it.

Besides – it’s respectful.

P.S. to the gurneyhalleck1: Frank Herbert was a genius.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

When I was lurking around here a month or so ago, I once saw someone mention a very good point. I apologize, I do not remember his/her name, but it went something like this: “Pope John Paul II always kissed the ground when he got off an airplane. It doesn’t mean he was worshiping a earth goddess.”

I think that summarizes this dilemma perfectly. Just because JPII kissed the Qu’ran, doesn’t mean he abides by it.

Besides – it’s respectful.

P.S. to the gurneyhalleck1: Frank Herbert was a genius.

I like your reasoning, if you think about the same could be said of Moses, he was told “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” That does mean Moses worshipped the Earth goddess, however when Moses saw the golden calf he didn’t kiss it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nice to see another Frank Herbert fan. There aren’t enough of us out there! Personally I was disgusted to see JP2’s kissing of the Koran. I understand the desire to show respect. I understand the desires this great Pope (my favorite hands down!) to reconcile with other religions and try to work together to make a more peaceful and loving world BUT he could’ve shown respect for a religion without going that far. The Koran, the actual book he kissed, rejects Christ as the Son of God. It mocks the Christian vision of God and in some surahs actually condemns us all. To kiss that book is to passively accept it as worthy of respect. It’s the same notion when taking communion. When a Catholic takes the Eucharist into his mouth, he is acknowledging that he is one with the doctrines of the Church, unity with the papacy and magisterium. It’s an acceptance of being a Catholic…kissing a Koran, that is over the top…I’d much rather he shake the hand of the mullah or ayatollah or whomever he’s meeting with as a sign of respect for the leader himself and the leader’s intentions and kindness rather than a full-fledge seeming acknowledgment of the whole kit and kaboodle. Just my five cents

When I was lurking around here a month or so ago, I once saw someone mention a very good point. I apologize, I do not remember his/her name, but it went something like this: “Pope John Paul II always kissed the ground when he got off an airplane. It doesn’t mean he was worshiping a earth goddess.”

I think that summarizes this dilemma perfectly. Just because JPII kissed the Qu’ran, doesn’t mean he abides by it.

Besides – it’s respectful.

P.S. to the gurneyhalleck1: Frank Herbert was a genius.

 

[Murdock]

STATEMENT OF THE FIRST PRESIDENCY REGARDING
GOD’S LOVE FOR ALL MANKIND

February 15,1978

Based upon ancient and modern revelation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father.

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.

We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happiness and a fulness of joy forever. For those who have not received this gospel, the opportunity will come to them in the life hereafter if not in this life.

Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.

The Book of Mormon also makes this clear:

For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it (2 Nephi 29:12).

The Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have (Alma 29:8).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And the point is?? Wow, is this a digression or what?

STATEMENT OF THE FIRST PRESIDENCY REGARDING
GOD’S LOVE FOR ALL MANKIND

February 15,1978

Based upon ancient and modern revelation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father.

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.

We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happiness and a fulness of joy forever. For those who have not received this gospel, the opportunity will come to them in the life hereafter if not in this life.

Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.

The Book of Mormon also makes this clear:

For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it (2 Nephi 29:12).

The Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have (Alma 29:8).

 

[Soldier_X]

And the point is?? Wow, is this a digression or what?

Nope. Still on topic.