Confused

[jmcrae]

Hi

Could you do me a favor. Or anyone else here who agrees with your statement, could you show me where canon law states that a civil marriage (and civil divorce) of a non-Catholic person needs an annulment in the Catholic church?

Thanks
I’d really like to know if my Priest is in error.

If your husband was Catholic at the time of his civil marriage, then he received a Declaration of Nullity based on “lack of form” because Catholics are required to get married in the Catholic Church.

Non-Catholics cannot get married in the Catholic Church, and so of course they don’t - but at the same time, their marriages are certainly valid, and if both non-Catholic parties to the marriage are baptized (even if not in the Catholic Church) then their marriages are also Sacramental, by virtue of the fact that they are both baptized Christians.

The Canon Law on the Sacrament of Marriage is found here. It’s quite a long section, but you will find that I have told the truth - non-Catholics are not bound by Catholic law, at the time that they are not Catholics. But if they become Catholics at a later time, then they become bound by Catholic law from the time of their conversion (not before - so any marriages they contracted before conversion are considered valid, unless there was something going on at the time that would have caused it not to be valid, such as lack of free consent, etc.)

 

[jmcrae]

But what a person does as an aethist, lets say an atheist gets married 3 times and divorced three times. That is of no significance to the Priest. They don’t recognize an atheist civil marriage.

He is require to recognize the first marriage, unless there is some reason to suspect that he did not mean by “marriage” a covenant of love in which the two are freely and willingly committed to work together to establish a family. It is perfectly possible for an atheist to intend to love his wife until death they do part, and to take good care of the children that come to them, even though they don’t know that children come from God.

He is not required to recognize any of the subsequent marriages, because he was not free to marry when he entered into those marriages - he was still bound under his “until death us do part” vow with his first wife.

 

[1ke]

Hi Ike,
I don’t understand? This is not what happened to me. I (a Catholic) was recently married in the church to a Catholic who is divorced. My husbands first marriage was a civil marriage therefore not recognized by the Church. Therefore we were free to get married in the church. He had to show that his first marriage was civil and have two witnesses who stated that it was not done in the church, and voila!

So how am I wrong?

That is because your husband is a Catholic. As I said, Catholic law applies to Catholics. Your husband did not follow Catholic law when he got married civilly. Therefore, his marriage is invalid.

The OP is not a Catholic. Therefore, Catholic marriage law regarding form did not apply to her at the time of her marriage.

Or rather, how is our situation not in accordance with canon law?

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Can. 1117 The form established above must be observed if at least one of the parties contracting marriage was baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act

 

[guanophore]

You should just ignore the protestants because they rejected christian tradition and allow immorality; so ask Catholics instead! lol

xxx jennifer xxx

This seems like an uncharitable remark, full of prejudice. For one thing, we are all members of One Body, and it is not appropriate for us to “ignore” one another. Second, most Protestants don’t even realize they are separated from the Apostolic Tradition, because they never learned about it. Third, there are at least as many immoral Catholics as their are Protesants. In fact, it was the immorality of Catholics that has caused the major schisms and separations in the Body.

If the person was not interested in a CAtholic opinon, they probably would not be on CAF.

 

[captainmike]

Hi,

I am feeling pretty confused at the moment, and as though there is no-one I can talk to. And to be honest, posting on this forum probably isn’t going to help that much. If I ask Catholics what to do, they’ll say one thing. If I ask Protestants, they’ll say the opposite. But as I’m pretty confused and not sure what to do, I thought I might write it all out here and see what responses I get.

I am Protestant. But not really going to a church at the moment. I started off Pentecostal. Then went to an Anglican church. And that sounds like I’m not really committed to my faith. Which isn’t the case at all. My faith is my world. There is nothing I like better than discussing religion or reading books about Christianity. I have a blog about my faith. I am just about to study theology. My faith is extremely important to me.

But now, as I learn more and more about religion and Christianity, I am beginning to think that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church. Or at the very least, it’s got to be more in line with God’s plan with any of the other Christian denominations. And so I’m very attract to Catholicism and starting to wonder whether I should become a Catholic.

But, as I said, I’m about to start studying theology at an Anglican college. And I really want to do that. If I become Catholic, what do I do then? And I love writing about Christianity. If I become Catholic, then obviously I know nothing and feel like I won’t even be able to write about it any more or even talk about it maybe. I know barely anything about Catholicism. I certainly can’t speak with any authority. And not saying I know a lot about Christianity in general. But at least I feel I know something.

This all sounds really stupid, now I’m putting it down. But it does bug me. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to give up on my love of learning about and writing about Christianity. And I want to do something else with it one day.

Also, another thing that scares me is I’m divorced. I am quite happy with my single state at the moment. But I’m not too keen on signing up for a religion that means I’ll be single for my whole life.

I know this comment sounds pretty silly. But I’ve just been thinking and thinking about it. And thought well I may as well write it out and see what people have to say.

Liz

i converted to catholicism from the episcopal church 2-3 years ago. my conversion resulted from several years of reading, thinking and praying. if you pray to God for guidance, he will show you what to do. If you can make yourself do it, pray the Rosary.

Regarding your divorce, getting an annulment is possible, and worth checking into.

Hang in there and God bless.

 

[captainmike]

watch ewtn (catholic tv), especially the daily mass, “the journey home,” and “the abundant life.”

 

[dianaiad]

Hi,

I am feeling pretty confused at the moment, and as though there is no-one I can talk to. And to be honest, posting on this forum probably isn’t going to help that much. If I ask Catholics what to do, they’ll say one thing. If I ask Protestants, they’ll say the opposite. But as I’m pretty confused and not sure what to do, I thought I might write it all out here and see what responses I get.

I am Protestant. But not really going to a church at the moment. I started off Pentecostal. Then went to an Anglican church. And that sounds like I’m not really committed to my faith. Which isn’t the case at all. My faith is my world. There is nothing I like better than discussing religion or reading books about Christianity. I have a blog about my faith. I am just about to study theology. My faith is extremely important to me.

But now, as I learn more and more about religion and Christianity, I am beginning to think that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church. Or at the very least, it’s got to be more in line with God’s plan with any of the other Christian denominations. And so I’m very attract to Catholicism and starting to wonder whether I should become a Catholic.

But, as I said, I’m about to start studying theology at an Anglican college. And I really want to do that. If I become Catholic, what do I do then? And I love writing about Christianity. If I become Catholic, then obviously I know nothing and feel like I won’t even be able to write about it any more or even talk about it maybe. I know barely anything about Catholicism. I certainly can’t speak with any authority. And not saying I know a lot about Christianity in general. But at least I feel I know something.

This all sounds really stupid, now I’m putting it down. But it does bug me. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to give up on my love of learning about and writing about Christianity. And I want to do something else with it one day.

Also, another thing that scares me is I’m divorced. I am quite happy with my single state at the moment. But I’m not too keen on signing up for a religion that means I’ll be single for my whole life.

I know this comment sounds pretty silly. But I’ve just been thinking and thinking about it. And thought well I may as well write it out and see what people have to say.

Liz

Liz?

I’m a Mormon. I do not have the answer for you (of course!) but your question intrigued me, as does the incredible variety of answers I have read on this thread; contradictory (or seemingly so, anyway).

So I went to the AAA (ask an apologist) forum and asked there. I tried to make the question as specific–and comprehensive–as I could, about the marriage and divorce thing in all manner of circumstances: both Catholics and religious, both Catholics and civil, Non-Catholics and religious, non-Catholics and civil, “mixed” (one Catholic, one not) both civil and religious.

If they answer (and they may not; it is heavily moderated and they may think they’ve answered this question often enough!!) I’ll post the link. You need far better and more authoritative sources of information that I could ever be!

 

[guanophore]

And to be honest, posting on this forum probably isn’t going to help that much.

I dont agree with this. Of course, you will get as many opinions as there are belly buttons, but in the course of exploring the feedback, it is likely that you will find solidity in yourself. Clearly the HS is leading you deeper into faith, and will guide you into al Truth.

But now, as I learn more and more about religion and Christianity, I am beginning to think that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church. Or at the very least, it’s got to be more in line with God’s plan with any of the other Christian denominations. And so I’m very attract to Catholicism and starting to wonder whether I should become a Catholic.

Part of the beauty of the Catholic Church is that it is not “Roman”. However, it is not a 'denomination". All the “denominations” have been created from how they separated themselves from the Church founded by Christ.

But, as I said, I’m about to start studying theology at an Anglican college. And I really want to do that. If I become Catholic, what do I do then?

I am not sure I understand your question. Do you think you would have to cease your studies?

If I become Catholic, then obviously I know nothing and feel like I won’t even be able to write about it any more or even talk about it maybe. I know barely anything about Catholicism.

This does not make sense to me at all. Catholicism is Christian. If you write about Christianity, then you already know quite a bit.

I certainly can’t speak with any authority. And not saying I know a lot about Christianity in general. But at least I feel I know something.

Once you listen to some of the catholic apologists that write and speak after having converted from Protestant beliefs, I think you will find that there is more than enough room for you to speak with authority. At the very least, you can speak authoritatively about your own process!

But it does bug me. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to give up on my love of learning about and writing about Christianity. And I want to do something else with it one day.

Have no fears! God will give you the desires of your heart. He does not place such abilities in people that He does not intend to use!

Also, another thing that scares me is I’m divorced. I am quite happy with my single state at the moment. But I’m not too keen on signing up for a religion that means I’ll be single for my whole life.

I understand your reluctance, but really, it is not about what you want (or any of us) but what He wants. If He is calling you to a celibate life, would you not be willing to give all to Him? If it should be that your previous marriage was found to be invalid or null, and God has in mind a spouse for you, would you not accept it?

Be keen on following Jesus completely, whereever He may lead you!

I may as well write it out and see what people have to say.

Liz

I think you chose well. I hope your dialogue here will support your spiritual discernment to walk in the Way he has provided for you.

 

[jenlovesyu]

I was kinda sorta like you not too long ago. I am only 19 so I mean there’s only so much I could have gone through but anyway…

For the first half of my life I have had a weak Mormon influence. My family stopped attending church regularly when I was around 5. When I was a preteen I would join in on some of their activities and I even went to summer girl’s camp. But soon after that I was a goner. I never felt comfortable there. Nice people most Mormons are, but nice doesn’t equate to Truth in my book.

Between the end of my Mormon days and the beginning of 2008 I would occasionally go to a few different types of protestant churches. Too occupied as a teenager with some spiritually dangerous choice-making so I wasn’t actively searching for God but evil wasn’t going to win just yet. I believed that God existed and God never let that belief get away from me.

Beginning of 2008: I started attending a Pentecostal church and my oh my, the Lord blessed me with brighter vision! But not quite with completely clear glasses at this point. Regardless, God was definitely using this church to transform me and guide me towards what I had always wanted deep down: pure and honest Truth. The Truth that can only come from God. The Truth that would set me free.

Of course, temptations started rolling in like thunder and I was struggling to live out my new found faith (totally still am struggling!). But I didn’t ever give up completely. By the summer of 2008 however, the preacher at this church was starting to teach some things about tithing which I knew couldnt be coming from God. So, I had to leave and search for my true home elsewhere.

This is the part where my major confusion and frustration came in. I was dating a Catholic at the time (he isn’t a practicing Catholic and knew almost nothing about his own faith). For a while I rejected Catholicism and tried to convert him to the Sola Sciptura idea protestants adhere to. But when I left the pentecostal church I felt strange and confused. Where do I go from here? Where can I worship God and be right with God?
As unhealthy (that’s a whole 'nother topic altogether!) as the relationship was, I do believe that somehow, God had used this bf of mine to lead me into the very place He wanted me to be. Even though he wasn’t a zealous representative of the Catholic Faith, the simple fact that my ex wouldn’t change his religious status was enough for me to calm down and start learning as much as I can about Catholicism. It was when I went here, to Catholic Answers, that I found exactly what I was looking for.

For a couple months I was still hesitant. I mean, Catholic theology is much different than the ideologies protestants adhere to so it can feel very overwhelming and even scary. Through a lot of prayer and a little bit of time, I truly feel that God led me to the right choice. I never felt so confident in my entire life in regards to my decision to become Catholic.

I’d suggest you take your time and try to learn as much as you can about Catholicism. I am not going to sit here and tell you what’s right and what’s wrong. That is for you to come to an understanding of. I also encourage you to pray pray pray for God’s guidance as much as you can. He knows what’s right.
**
Remember: With God you start out in fear but end in peace. **

 

[Lisa44]

If your husband was Catholic at the time of his civil marriage, then he received a Declaration of Nullity based on “lack of form” because Catholics are required to get married in the Catholic Church.

Non-Catholics cannot get married in the Catholic Church, and so of course they don’t - but at the same time, their marriages are certainly valid, and if both non-Catholic parties to the marriage are baptized (even if not in the Catholic Church) then their marriages are also Sacramental, by virtue of the fact that they are both baptized Christians.

The Canon Law on the Sacrament of Marriage is found here. It’s quite a long section, but you will find that I have told the truth - non-Catholics are not bound by Catholic law, at the time that they are not Catholics. But if they become Catholics at a later time, then they become bound by Catholic law from the time of their conversion (not before - so any marriages they contracted before conversion are considered valid, unless there was something going on at the time that would have caused it not to be valid, such as lack of free consent, etc.)

He is require to recognize the first marriage, unless there is some reason to suspect that he did not mean by “marriage” a covenant of love in which the two are freely and willingly committed to work together to establish a family. It is perfectly possible for an atheist to intend to love his wife until death they do part, and to take good care of the children that come to them, even though they don’t know that children come from God.

He is not required to recognize any of the subsequent marriages, because he was not free to marry when he entered into those marriages - he was still bound under his “until death us do part” vow with his first wife.

That is because your husband is a Catholic. As I said, Catholic law applies to Catholics. Your husband did not follow Catholic law when he got married civilly. Therefore, his marriage is invalid.

The OP is not a Catholic. Therefore, Catholic marriage law regarding form did not apply to her at the time of her marriage.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Can. 1117 The form established above must be observed if at least one of the parties contracting marriage was baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act

Hi,
Firstly, I apologize for misleading the OP and being incorrect. Thank you both for your guidance.
I see what you mean now, the law is different depending on whether or not the person is a Catholic, a Christian or a non-Christian.
A Catholic who gets married outside the church has an “invalid” marriage therefore dissolvable? Yes?
A Christian who is married outside the church however has a “valid” marriage and is therefore indissolvable unless proven to be invalid by a tribunal. Yes?
Now, what about non-baptized people? I didn’t read anything in canon law about the marriage between two non-baptized people but I’ll look again in case I missed it.

To the OP, what this means is that her first marriage is valid and therefore possilby indissolvable. In which case a 2nd marriage in the Catholic church would not be obtainable.

Doesn’t that seem a bit unfair? Because my husband who is Catholic was able to get married for the 2nd time in the Church, yet, a Christian will be held to the 1st sacramental marriage. Does that really make sense?

Anyways, if this is too off topic let me know and I’ll start a new thread.

To the OP - I understand your concerns because I freaked out when I was told AFTER I was baptized as a Catholic that I was living in sin and I didn’t know if I was going to be able to rectify it. It turned out ok because my husbands 1st marriage was considered invalid but when I went through RCIA no one told me anything about this issue.

You are very wise to be asking these questions BEFORE becoming a Catholic. I wish I knew these things before as well.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Isn’t the terminology sacramental marriage/ natural marriage. Valid is being misused here, I think. Both would be valid, just one not sacramental I think.

 

[1ke]

Now, what about non-baptized people? I didn’t read anything in canon law about the marriage between two non-baptized people but I’ll look again in case I missed it.

The unbaptized enter into natural marriages. They are valid, but not indissoluable-- the Pope can dissolve a natural marriage under specific circumstances. Marriage between the baptized is a Sacrament, and that is what makes a marriage indissoluable.

Doesn’t that seem a bit unfair? Because my husband who is Catholic was able to get married for the 2nd time in the Church, yet, a Christian will be held to the 1st sacramental marriage. Does that really make sense?

Your husband did not get married a “2nd time.” His first attempt at marriage was invalid. Your husband didn’t have a “1st sacramental marriage” or he would have been “held to” it and would not have been able to marry you.

There is nothing “unfair” regarding the Church’s teaching. It is the same for everyone.

 

[Lisa44]

The unbaptized enter into natural marriages. They are valid, but not indissoluable-- the Pope can dissolve a natural marriage under specific circumstances. Marriage between the baptized is a Sacrament, and that is what makes a marriage indissoluable.

Hi,
I see. But the Pope doesn’t give “annulments” for unbaptized marriages that end in divorce does he?

Your husband did not get married a “2nd time.” His first attempt at marriage was invalid. Your husband didn’t have a “1st sacramental marriage” or he would have been “held to” it and would not have been able to marry you.

There is nothing “unfair” regarding the Church’s teaching. It is the same for everyone.

Well, no, not the “same” for everyone. Not the same for a Christian and a Catholic.

What I meant by unfair is that both the Christian and the Catholic are baptized, and therefore when they are married it should both be considered ‘sacramental’. However, its not sacramental for a Catholic because he didn’t get married in the church. But neither did the Christian. However, the Christian’s marriage is sacramental due to the fact that they are a baptized person, however, the Catholics marriage is not sacramental, even though they are baptized also.

So, the Catholic gets a ‘get out of jail free’ card in a way. Whereas the Christian has no ‘get out of jail free’ card.

Thats all I meant. Obviously I’m just illustrating, no Catholic knowingly marries ‘outside’ the church in order to get a ‘get out of jail free’ card, or an ‘invalid’ marriage that they can dissolve and then get married again. I mean, that is not their intention, however thats how it works.

So what I’m saying is the intention is the same for both Christians (one Catholic) who get a civil marriage. Both expect it to last a lifetime. However, when the Catholic’s civil marriage fails he finds out it was ‘invalid’ so therefore he can marry again ‘sacramentally’.

Ok
Do I have this straight or not?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hi,
I see. But the Pope doesn’t give “annulments” for unbaptized marriages that end in divorce does he?

I was wondering if a non catholic could apply for a decree of nullity. I am wondering if they can, say in case they want to if they are back in the dating arena and would like to get a jump on the process before they are engaged to a catholic, potentially.? I wonder if some have tried to do this. It is a good question I think!

Well, no, not the “same” for everyone. Not the same for a Christian and a Catholic.

I thought catholics were also christian?

What I meant by unfair is that both the Christian and the Catholic are baptized,

Now there is an interesting topic right there! Some protestants think of baptism in a very different way from what I see. Some even say infant baptism is wrong and others even go so far to say water is not needed! And, there are even more variables there also!

and therefore when they are married it should both be considered ‘sacramental’.

Really? By who? Would the catholic church consider a valid non catholic non christian or non catholic christian marriage sacramental? How so? If it is not done in the catholic church, how does that work?
I know baptism, if done in the correct formula is, but marriage? Really?

However, its not sacramental for a Catholic because he didn’t get married in the church.

Why would a catholic not get married in the catholic church? Perhaps they need to ask why? Especially when it is such an important thing!

But neither did the Christian.

I don’t know about that one. I read threads about catholics getting approval to marry in the catholic church a non catholic spouse. I think there is a procedure for that. Maybe it is the way to go in that case. But, if there is a way to do that, and someone bypasses that way to do it, then what does that say?

However, the Christian’s marriage is sacramental due to the fact that they are a baptized person,

Again, for clarification I ask who says so?

however, the Catholics marriage is not sacramental, even though they are baptized also.

Would the catholic in this case be in mortal sin for not participating in a sacrament in a catholic church?

So, the Catholic gets a ‘get out of jail free’ card in a way.

How so? What did they “get out of”?

Whereas the Christian has no ‘get out of jail free’ card.

Again, are not catholics christians?

Thats all I meant. Obviously I’m just illustrating, no Catholic knowingly marries ‘outside’ the church in order to get a ‘get out of jail free’ card,

Does a catholic get a “get out of jail free card” for marrying outside of the catholic church?

Why? That makes NO sense to me.

or an ‘invalid’ marriage that they can dissolve and then get married again. I mean, that is not their intention, however thats how it works.

Does the couple dissolve the marriage, or the church? When does it become invalid? After the church says so I guess?

So what I’m saying is the intention is the same for both Christians (one Catholic) who get a civil marriage.

Are catholics allowed to bypass the church and get a secular marriage only?

Both expect it to last a lifetime. However, when the Catholic’s civil marriage fails

Determined by who? The couple? The secular law?

he finds out it was ‘invalid’

How does he find this out if he was the arbitrator?

so therefore he can marry again ‘sacramentally’.

Again, says who?

Ok
Do I have this straight or not?

You sure have me confused!

 

[1ke]

Hi,
I see. But the Pope doesn’t give “annulments” for unbaptized marriages that end in divorce does he?

The diocesan tribunal can handle cases of **invalid **marriages of the unbaptized, and it is the diocesan tribunal that would declare a marriage to be invalid-- issuing a decree of nullity.

A **valid **marriage of an unbaptized person can be dissolved via either the Pauline or Petrine Privilege depending on the circumstances. The Pauline Privilege is handled at the diocesan level. The Petrine Privilege requires the Pope to be invovled. These are not annulments, the Petrine or Pauline Privilege is a dissolution of the bond.

Well, no, not the “same” for everyone. Not the same for a Christian and a Catholic.

What I meant by unfair is that both the Christian and the Catholic are baptized, and therefore when they are married it should both be considered ‘sacramental’. However, its not sacramental for a Catholic because he didn’t get married in the church. But neither did the Christian. However, the Christian’s marriage is sacramental due to the fact that they are a baptized person, however, the Catholics marriage is not sacramental, even though they are baptized also.

So, the Catholic gets a ‘get out of jail free’ card in a way. Whereas the Christian has no ‘get out of jail free’ card.

The Catholic did not follow the requirements of the Church for a valid marriage.

Thats all I meant. Obviously I’m just illustrating, no Catholic knowingly marries ‘outside’ the church in order to get a ‘get out of jail free’ card, or an ‘invalid’ marriage that they can dissolve and then get married again. I mean, that is not their intention, however thats how it works.

So what I’m saying is the intention is the same for both Christians (one Catholic) who get a civil marriage. Both expect it to last a lifetime. However, when the Catholic’s civil marriage fails he finds out it was ‘invalid’ so therefore he can marry again ‘sacramentally’.

I think you are making a big assumption about the intentions of a Catholic who purposely marries outside the Church.

 

[Answersplease]

You should just ignore the protestants because they rejected christian tradition and allow immorality; so ask Catholics instead! lol

xxx jennifer xxx

I think she is talking about teaching and sanctioning immorality, such as openly gay bishops and saying that abortion and homosexuality are allowed.

Sure not all protestants groups are like that, but there is at least one prominent protestant group that is.

Zundrah, don’t let some of these Catholics scare you away from the Church built by Christ himself.
Some Catholics are way to ecumenical, even to the point of not challenging anti-Catholic behaviour from some groups like anti-Catholic Jews (not all non-Christian Jews are anti-Catholic, I also promote the recognition of Jewish Catholics).

 

[jake23]

You should just ignore the protestants because they rejected christian tradition and allow immorality; so ask Catholics instead! lol

xxx jennifer xxx

Let this persons Quote be a sign of his religions great ignorance. May we all pray for him and his lost soul!

 

[Primox]

Let this persons Quote be a sign of his religions great ignorance. May we all pray for him and his lost soul!

1. Let’s not judge, lest we be judged 2) Zundrah is a girl (hence, “Jennifer”) 3) Zundrah is in RCIA classes 4) God bless you.

 

[dianaiad]

1. Let’s not judge, lest we be judged 2) Zundrah is a girl (hence, “Jennifer”) 3) Zundrah is in RCIA classes 4) God bless you.

Jennifer has also been landed on pretty hard over the last two days. She can be very sweet, but isn’t very experienced in how to deal with online forums such as this. I hope she learns fast and comes back quickly.

 

[guanophore]

Jennifer has also been landed on pretty hard over the last two days. She can be very sweet, but isn’t very experienced in how to deal with online forums such as this. I hope she learns fast and comes back quickly.

From your lips to God’s ear!