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shane_borders

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I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
 
Matthew 28:19 says:
19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

This is from the New American Bible we use at Mass.

Heres some Early Church Fathers:

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).

“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).

“And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle’ (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.’ And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.’” Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181).

“In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her–being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 2 (post A.D. 213).

"Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: My Father is greater than I.’ In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being a little lower than the angels.’ Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213).

“Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter. …even the Spirit of truth,’ thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and San amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality? For, of course, all things will be what their names represent them to be; and what they are and ever will be, that will they be called; and the distinction indicated by the names does not at all admit of any confusion, because there is none in the things which they designate. “Yes is yes, and no is no; for what is more than these, cometh of evil.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213).

“[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.” Origen, First Principles, 4:28 (A.D. 230).

And the Catholic church set the doctrine of the Trinity, so why would we change the bible? I dont really understand what your question is about the verse changing. But the Holy ghost and the Holy spirit are the same thing.
 
I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
I’d check with the Orthodox.
 
=shane borders;6373660]I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
***Matt. 3: 13 ***"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [The SON] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [The Holy SPIRIT] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” [The FATHER] all at he same time: That proofs the early Church held this belief.

As does:


Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

The Catholic Encypodeia:

The dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in ***Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. ***He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen (“In Ps. xvii”, 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen’s pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
 
I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
Is your question about belief in the Trinity, or about Baptism?
 
baptism. and did Catholics create the trinitarian baptism or was it already being done and they just accepted it to be the correct way. see i am having trouble with some of my family they are oneness upc pentacostals and they say the trinity is man made doctrine that the Catholics started and i got to find where it was already being done before the council of nicaea ( i think). to prove that the “TRINITY” word might be man made but the right way to baptise was being done before the catholic church
thanks for your help of any kind
shane
 
The Council of Nicea confirmed what had been taught since the Ascension, by the Apostles to whom Jesus gave the Great Commission and by their successors to whom they passed the authority He gave them. Christians always baptised as He taught - in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It did take several centuries to work out the details of how that Mystery might be described (never understood, as it is a Mystery). But it was not a “new” doctrine. The “new” doctrines were those proposed by the Gnostics and the Arians, which although they have been condemned for centuries, continue to pop up in assorted denominations that do not accept the authority of the Apostolic Church.
 
Hi,
What about speaking in tongues? the UPC folks tell me that it is the evidence of receiving the HolyGhost.I have never had it happen to me but they say it is real and it is the best feeling in the world.Is it for real?What are they experiencing?
Shane
 
On the original question, there are quite a few who wrote about it before that date, including St. Irenaeus, a disciple of St. Polycarp, a disciple of St. John.
Hi,
What about speaking in tongues? the UPC folks tell me that it is the evidence of receiving the HolyGhost.I have never had it happen to me but they say it is real and it is the best feeling in the world.Is it for real?What are they experiencing?
Shane
There is such a thing as speaking in tongues, but I am of the personal opinion that many people just fake it.
I used to go to a church where that was done, and those who “could” speak in tongues were considered somehow holier than those who couldn’t. With peer pressure like that, there would be a lot of faking it, as it is something that is quite easy to fake. This is not to say that it isn’t a real gift, but two things need to be kept in mind:
  1. Scripture speaks of two types, the kind that is between an individual and God, which should be done in private, and the type that is given to be interpreted, if there is no interpreter it is just babbling in vain, whether or not it is the true gift.
  2. Tongues is the least of the gifts listed by Paul. Have pity on those content to be least among the followers of Christ.
 
I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
The trinitarian formula existed a long time before Constantine. I know there are those who will say things like “Constantine deified Jesus!” but the truth is that Jesus was regarded as God Incarnate long before Constantine was born. I mean, hello, the first chapter of the fourth Gospel…?

Some have disputed the authenticity of Mt 28:19, but I don’t think we have any extant Ms of Matthew that lacks it. Most of the objections to the Trinitarian name revolve around the assumption that the Trinity was a 2nd-century development in doctrine. Again, positive evidence is lacking. My own suspicion is that there were a number of competing doctrines concerning the Divine Nature floating about in the very early days, and that it took controversy (such as the controversies that occasioned Nicea I & Chalcedon) to force the Church to define its teaching and exclude inauthentic teaching.

Constantine’s personal opinions, by the way, seem to have been at variance with the findings of Nicea I. He and his sons were pretty much Arians. He promised, however, to abide by the decisions made by the Council, and so he did. His sons didn’t, though…
 
Welcome to CAF! Most of what you hear and read from non-Catholic sources is typically wrong. There are many anti-Catholic roots somewhere in these sourses’ origins. So if you really want to know more then read the Catholic sources before you read how dumb the others say things. If you read the ancient church fathers you will clearly come to realize that there is something incorrect about what’s happening in Protestant churches - things like the real presnece of Christ in the Eucharist, the importance of the Bishop being over a region, not a little church building, etc. Most of the people I knew that claimed to have the gift of tonges were pressured into faking it. I never faked it, even when someone would say to just let the words roll off of your tongue. Having Christ in my body in the form of bread and wine was more than anyone could ever ask. That is the best feeling one can experience once you realize this to be an ancient Church teaching, ancient because Christ himself taught us.
 
I heard that the Roman Catholic Church changed Matthew 28:19 to Father Son and Holy Ghost from ( in my name),i just wondered if it is true?And did any body use the trinitarian formula before 325AD?If so can i get a reference to research it?Thank you so much
Shane Borders
It’s not true.

From the original greek:

19: poreuqenteV <4198> (5679) {GOING} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} maqhteusate <3100> (5657) {DISCIPLE} panta <3956> {ALL} ta <3588> {THE} eqnh <1484> {NATIONS,} baptizonteV <907> (5723) {BAPTIZING} autouV <846> {THEM} eiV <1519> {TO} to <3588> {THE} onoma <3686> {NAME} tou <3588> {OF THE} patroV <3962> {FATHER} kai <2532> {AND} tou <3588> {OF THE} uiou <5207> {SON} kai <2532> {AND} tou <3588> {OF THE} agiou <40> {HOLY} pneumatoV <4151> {SPIRIT;}

My computer does not adequately translate the greek lettering, but you can go to online bible translations that have the greek text and see it for yourself. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Robert
 
It’s not true.

From the original greek:

19: poreuqenteV <4198> (5679) {GOING} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} maqhteusate <3100> (5657) {DISCIPLE} panta <3956> {ALL} ta <3588> {THE} eqnh <1484> {NATIONS,} baptizonteV <907> (5723) {BAPTIZING} autouV <846> {THEM} eiV <1519> {TO} to <3588> {THE} onoma <3686> {NAME} tou <3588> {OF THE} patroV <3962> {FATHER} kai <2532> {AND} tou <3588> {OF THE} uiou <5207> {SON} kai <2532> {AND} tou <3588> {OF THE} agiou <40> {HOLY} pneumatoV <4151> {SPIRIT;}

My computer does not adequately translate the greek lettering, but you can go to online bible translations that have the greek text and see it for yourself. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Peace,
Robert
For future reference: biblos.com/matthew/28-19.htm, although the less Greek one knows, the less value that is.

Back to the OP, the onus would be on those people who say the Catholic Church changed things to provide the evidence it was done.
 
=shane borders;6382267]Hi,
What about speaking in tongues? the UPC folks tell me that it is the evidence of receiving the HolyGhost.I have never had it happen to me but they say it is real and it is the best feeling in the world.Is it for real?What are they experiencing?
Shane
1Cor.12
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed.
[2] You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved.
[3] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
[4] **Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; **
[5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
[6] **and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. **
[7] *To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. ***
[8] To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
[9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
[10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits,
to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. **[11] All these are inspired by one and ***the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. ***
[12] For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
[14] For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
[15] If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[16] And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
[18] But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
[19] If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
[20] As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
[22] On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
[23] and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
[24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
[25] that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. **
[26] If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
[27] Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
[29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
[30
] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
[31] ***But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. ***
 
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