Confused

[Matthew_Holford]

Which order of Cardinal one belongs to depends on one’s tenure within the cardinalate. So a Latin Bishop who has been a Cardinal for, I believe 15 years, would be a Cardinal Bishop and out rank a Patriarch who had just joined the cardinalate and would therefore be a Cardinal Deacon. I believe the Patriarchs wish to be immediately included as Cardinal Bishops, so that Latin Bishops whom they out rank in the normal hierarchy would not out rank them in the internal hierarchy of the cardinalate.

Cardinals are not accorded their rank based on the length they have been a cardinal. Cardinals who work in the Roman Curia are usually made Cardinal Deacon. Residential archbishops are usually made Cardinal Priests. Any cardinal who has been a Cardinal Deacon for 10 or more years can ask the Pope to be promoted to Cardinal Priest. The Pope selects the six Latin bishops who are Cardinal Bishops from amongst the Cardinal Priests. Patriarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris who are elevated to the cardinalate are always made cardinals of the episcopal order. However, they do differ in two ways. First, they are not given the title of a suburbicarian see but use their patriarchal title as their cardinalatial title. Second, they are not counted among the Roman clergy unlike other cardinals.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

… and there are Latin Patriarchs as well.

They are only titular, they have neither the powers or prerogatives of a patriarch of an Eastern Catholic Church.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Now I’m confused - Patriarchs are above Metroplitan-Archbishops. Do you mean to say that if they become Cardinals, they start out as “Cardinal Deacons?”

They don’t. If the Pope makes the Patriarch of an Eastern Catholic Church a cardinal the Patriarch is always a Cardinal Bishop.

But I think you assume too much by saying that the Patriarchs want to outrank others here.

I think all Patriarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris should rank immediately after the Pope and before any bishop/hierarch of any of the 23 Eastern/Latin Catholic Churches!

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Only if there is more than one Patriarch emeritus. EC Patriarchs elevated to the cardinality are in the order of cardinals-patriarch, as cardinal of their patriarchal see. If, however, the Patriarch Emeritus lives, he holds the patriarchal see as Cardinal, and the current patriarch is usually straight to Cardinal Bishop if a see is available, and gets the highest cardinalate see available.

I am not too sure what you mean by “if a see is available, and gets the highest cardinalate see available”. If you are referring to the suburbicarian sees these are for the Latin cardinals.

All OTHER cardinals normally start at Cardinal-Deacon.

Most cardinals start out as Cardinal Priest. The rank of Cardinal Deacon is conferred on those serving in the Roman Curia, e.g. prefects of Congregations. Residential bishops are made Cardinal Priests. As most cardinals are Cardinal Priests most cardinals start out at this grade.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

how can a lay Cardinal

There are no lay cardinals. The current discipline of the Church is that only priests or bishops can be made cardinals.

Priest Cardinal be higher than a Patriarch who is a bishop?

They are not! Patriarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris, if made a cardinal, are always made Cardinal Bishops.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Only priests or bishops can be elevated to the cardinalate, not laymen.

There were, at one time in Church history, cardinals who were laymen, deacons, priests, and bishops but today only bishops may be made cardinals.

From the Code of Canon Law…
Can. 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration.
So, technically, while a priest may be promoted to the cardinalate, he must be ordained a bishop.

Yes, Avery Dulles, did not become a bishop but he requested that he not be ordained a bishop and the pope dispensed from this law as is his right as the supreme legislator.

We can not make a rule based on dispensations. We can only go by what the law actually says.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

There were, at one time in Church history, cardinals who were laymen, deacons, priests, and bishops but today only bishops may be made cardinals.

As I stated in Post #25 it is the current discipline of the Church that laymen cannot be elevated to the cardinalate. I am aware that there have been lay cardinals in the past.

From the Code of Canon Law…
Can. 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration.
So, technically, while a priest may be promoted to the cardinalate, he must be ordained a bishop.

You appear to contradict yourself by first saying only bishops can be cardinals and then citing a Canon, which states: “who are at least in the order of priesthood …”

Priests can be made cardinals and then the norm is they are ordained as bishops.

Yes, Avery Dulles, did not become a bishop but he requested that he not be ordained a bishop and the pope dispensed from this law as is his right as the supreme legislator.

We can not make a rule based on dispensations. We can only go by what the law actually says.

I have not said that the rescript granted to Avery Dulles (and I believe he is not the only example) makes any rules, just that priests can be cardinals.

Today, the Holy Father announced 24 new cardinals to be created on 20th November. Two of them are priests. It will be interesting to see if they are required to be ordained as bishops or if they will be permitted to remain as priests.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As I stated in Post #25 it is the current discipline of the Church that laymen cannot be elevated to the cardinalate. I am aware that there have been lay cardinals in the past.

You appear to contradict yourself by first saying only bishops can be cardinals and then citing a Canon, which states: “who are at least in the order of priesthood …”

Priests can be made cardinals and then the norm is they are ordained as bishops.

I have not said that the rescript granted to Avery Dulles (and I believe he is not the only example) makes any rules, just that priests can be cardinals.

Today, the Holy Father announced 24 new cardinals to be created on 20th November. Two of them are priests. It will be interesting to see if they are required to be ordained as bishops or if they will be permitted to remain as priests.

According to the Law priests can not be cardinals, they can be promoted to cardinal but then must be ordained bishops.

I see where this is going, the same way as the “chastity is refraining from sex” argument and I think I will pass on the “discussion” this time.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I see where this is going, the same way as the “chastity is refraining from sex” argument and I think I will pass on the “discussion” this time.

So much for the putative conciliatory private messages you have sent me. I find your above quoted comment both offending and arrogant. If that is the route you wish take then so be it. I will no longer engage in further discussion with you in this or any other thread.