Confused

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

Luke, I would also like to point out to you that what you are doing with the whole “Jesus is the only rock” thing is mixing metaphors. If you’ve ever taken a writing class (or even a literature class for that matter) you should know that mixing metaphors is a big no-no. Peter is called the rock, Jesus is called the rock, and the Apostles are called the rock, all in different places in Scripture. Either Scripture is contradicting itself (which we both know can’t happen) or they…guess what?..MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT! Rock is used as a metaphor, but it is used at different times as a different metaphor.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Ignatius]

Luke 4:4:

Just a few questions for everyone.

I was just wondering why the many “christian” churches of this world don’t feel that they have to keep Gods laws. And why is it that they twist Gods laws around to fit their needs or add things to his word whenever it suits them.

i.e. the sabbath. God clearly states that the sabbath is on the seventh day. Last time I checked the seventh day was saturday not sunday. SOmeone show me whaere God changed the sabbath day to Sunday.

Jesus gave the Apostles “all authority in heaven and on earth”, He told them “whatsoever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; whatsoever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven”. Finally he told them “whoever hears you hears me”.
So when they decided to “gather on the first day of the week”, that was bound in heaven, that is if you believe that Jesus was telling them the truth.

BTW Dave, are you SDA?

Pax Christi.

 

[NotWorthy]

OK, it’s back to the Sabbath issue, again?

In Acts 20:7, the disciples in Troas gather “on the first day of the week… to break bread”. This echoes Jesus’ Eucharistic celebration at Emmaus. When? On Easter Sunday!

St. Ignatius (110 AD) and Justin Martyr (circa 160AD) explain the reason for the transference of the Sabbath to Sunday, from the seventh day of the week to the first day. This transference indicates that the fulfilling work of Christ pushes us beyond the last day of creation to a new day of re-creation in Christ.

St. Ignatius’ Letter to the Magnesians
Justin Martyr’s *First Apology

NotWorthy
*

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

ccg.org/_domain/originalcatholicchurch.org/English/english.htm
ccg.org/english/S/p008.html

This is the kind of stuff this poster is saying that he believes:
“The Trinity did not come into existence until it was defined at the Council of Constantinople in 381. At Nicea in 325 the Trinity was not formulated. Only the foundation of the Binitarian Structure was laid down here. All the Catholic Church was Unitarian until the Modal structure entered Rome from the worship of Attis in the beginning of the third century.”

This is bunk.

They also are teaching this load of trash:
"18…Holocaust

I’ve read from various sources that the Roman Catholic Church took part in the Holocaust. Do you believe this is true?

A: The facts speak for themselves, Hitler’s stated aims were to establish the Roman Catholic and the Lutheran Church as the two great religious pillars of Europe. This is a well-documented fact.

The first concentration camp was handed over to the Lutheran Church by the SA in December 1932. We have a copy of a letter from the Lutheran’s of the Hamburg area concerning this camp.

From 1932 to 1945 some 15000 camps were established and run by the SA/SS with men drawn from Lutheran and Roman Catholic sources throughout Europe.

The Extermination camps or Vernichtens lager were in the east and were run by Roman Catholics. Perhaps the most brutal camp was in Croatia and was run by the Ustashi, which was the Croatian fascist organisation under the command of a Roman Catholic bishop."

Garbage and lies…

 

[NotWorthy]

Anyone who believes the Catholic Church was in any way involved in the concentration camps has simply never heard of Maximillan Kolbe (I hope I spelled this right) and the suffering that priests willingly went through with the other victims. His is a story that is truly inspiring!

NotWorthy

 

[Luke_4_4]

2Rollin'Stoned:

This is the kind of stuff this poster is saying that he believes:
“The Trinity did not come into existence until it was defined at the Council of Constantinople in 381. At Nicea in 325 the Trinity was not formulated. Only the foundation of the Binitarian Structure was laid down here. All the Catholic Church was Unitarian until the Modal structure entered Rome from the worship of Attis in the beginning of the third century.”

This is bunk.

They also are teaching this load of trash:
"18…Holocaust

I’ve read from various sources that the Roman Catholic Church took part in the Holocaust. Do you believe this is true?

A: The facts speak for themselves, Hitler’s stated aims were to establish the Roman Catholic and the Lutheran Church as the two great religious pillars of Europe. This is a well-documented fact.

The first concentration camp was handed over to the Lutheran Church by the SA in December 1932. We have a copy of a letter from the Lutheran’s of the Hamburg area concerning this camp.

From 1932 to 1945 some 15000 camps were established and run by the SA/SS with men drawn from Lutheran and Roman Catholic sources throughout Europe.

The Extermination camps or Vernichtens lager were in the east and were run by Roman Catholics. Perhaps the most brutal camp was in Croatia and was run by the Ustashi, which was the Croatian fascist organisation under the command of a Roman Catholic bishop."

Garbage and lies…

I’m not sure I recall ever saying I believed the stuff on that page. I posted it to get feedback on it. How bout reading my post before accusing me of something. Statements like “This is the kind of stuff this poster is saying that he believes” just make you look stupid as they have absolutely no backing. How dare you sit there and think you can tell everyone what I believe. How bout asking me what I believe and then making a judgement based on my response.

Dave

 

[Psalm45_9]

NotWorthy:

Anyone who believes the Catholic Church was in any way involved in the concentration camps has simply never heard of Maximillan Kolbe (I hope I spelled this right) and the suffering that priests willingly went through with the other victims. His is a story that is truly inspiring!

NotWorthy

St. Maximilan Mary Kolbe, priest and martyr.

 

[johnpaullover]

Luke 4:4:

Just a few questions for everyone.

I was just wondering why the many “christian” churches of this world don’t feel that they have to keep Gods laws. And why is it that they twist Gods laws around to fit their needs or add things to his word whenever it suits them.

i.e. the sabbath. God clearly states that the sabbath is on the seventh day. Last time I checked the seventh day was saturday not sunday. SOmeone show me whaere God changed the sabbath day to Sunday.

Gods Holy Days. How is it that the “christian” churches of this world celebrate pagen holidays like christmas and easter which were created by men but fail to keep Gods Holy Days such as Pentacost, the Day of atonement or the Feast of Trumpets.

The list goes on and on. Clean and unclean foods, Though shall have no other Gods befor me (i.e. the Pope),

Please answer tell me why the churches of this world continue do do thing so contrary to the Bible.
Plaese prove your points using the bible. If it can’t be proved from the bible it means nothing.

Dave

Help has Arrived!!!

NO, I AM NOT THE POPE!!!

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27

This means that it is not neccasary to do the works of the law. By this I mean, Keeping kosher does not justify you.

 

[johnpaullover]

Furthermore. about the pope.

I don’t know why this is difficult.

How can a church with some three million members base its faith soley on a book? What happened when Calvin and Luther tried? They ended up with all these seperate denominations. They ended up serving the Body of Christ as hors d’ovures.

 

[Ignatius]

Luke 4:4:

I’m not sure I recall ever saying I believed the stuff on that page.

So, you posted it already knowing it was false? That’s even worse.

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

Luke 4:4:

I’m not sure I recall ever saying I believed the stuff on that page. I posted it to get feedback on it. How bout reading my post before accusing me of something. Statements like “This is the kind of stuff this poster is saying that he believes” just make you look stupid as they have absolutely no backing. How dare you sit there and think you can tell everyone what I believe. How bout asking me what I believe and then making a judgement based on my response.

Dave

Then why link to such trash if you have no intention of impugning the Catholic Church with that garbage?

As for lookin’ stupid…I didn’t post the links to that fallacious bunkum. Do you have a problem with asking a straight question that can be answered, or did you just wanna torque guys like me off with a link to insulting and erroneous misinformation about the Catholic Church? We hear enough junk without you feeding us more.

My point is (after a deep breath)… if you really want to discuss our most holy faith, ask good questions that are sincere. Don’t post links to lies.

BTW… one more thing. DO you believe any of that rubbish on that site, and if not why DID you link it for us?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Luke 4:4, you keep quoting from Herbert W. Armstrong – maybe you should take the time to read ALL that they have to say because even they acknowldege that the Catholic church is the ONE true church established by Christ which the gates of hell shall not prevail against …

Many people at one time or another wonder just where the one true church of God really is. Certainly you’d expect a logical God to make the truth plain for all who are honestly seeking Him, wouldn’t you? Well, God has-through Ambassador College!

Let’s quickly go right back to the beginning and find the trunk of the tree, avoiding the tree with the forbidden fruit on it, of course! You’ll find with a little foresight (hindsight is allowed if you’re low on foresight) that there are 14 major keys that would enable you to determine beyond any doubt which church is the true church. Fourteen, you know, is an extremely significant number since it’s derived from multiplying 7 times 2 or 2 times 7. Fourteen also happens to be the exact number of asses both Deliah and Jezebel owned at one time during their lives. Need I go any further in depth to scientifically prove this obvious verity?

So now let’s critically examine the 14 major scientific proofs for the true church. But don’t believe what I write just because I write it. Believe it because you see it with your own eyes and especially because it’s so true and obvious and because it’s downright stupid to believe anything else!

I. IT HAS MAJOR DOCTRINAL TRUTHS
Obviously and clearly the Catholic Church has doctrinal truths possessed by no other church. Don’t all other churches differ from it? Since only one church can be the true one, and others differ, this proves the Catholics alone are right. Does any other church preach the same gospel that the Catholic Church preaches? Of course not! This again logically proves the authenticity of the Catholic Church. Some dissenters have gone out from the Catholic Church-just as it was prophesied to happen. These detractors (obviously in a rotten attitude and disloyal to the men who brought them into Christianity and to God’s truth) claimed the Catholic Church was doctrinally in error. But would God let His church be in error and not correct it? It’s God’s job to judge His church. If you say you would run the Church differently than the Pope does, this just shows why God chose Pope Paul instead of you to run the Church. Besides, Christ gave the Catholic Church authority to bind and loose-the same authority the apostles possessed. The Pope is simply analogous to the head apostle. Remember, everything Peter said could not be proven from the Old Testament. As Herbert Armstrong so aptly stated on this issue, “Christ has bound in heaven what His Church, even in error, has bound in earth.” (MINISTERIAL BULLETIN, December 3, 1974, p.631)

II. CORRECT NAME OF THE TRUE CHURCH
There are many churches around named after men or doctrines. Christ, however, founded only one true church having a single body of beliefs and a true name. That name is Catholic Church. If you aren’t afraid to, check a concordance. You will discover that the word “church” is used exactly 77 times in the New Testament. Here we see again God’s number of perfection and completeness, seven, stamped on his true church. Interestingly, the first time this name is used is in Matthew 16:18 where Christ says he’s going to build His church on Peter. Some claim the true name is Church of God. Believe it or not, the Catholic Church is often referred to in literature, as far back as the second century A.D., as the Catholic Church of God (with “Catholic,” meaning “worldwide,” merely being a descriptive adjective).

III. IT OBSERVES CORRECT DAYS
For 1900 years Catholics have known that New Covenant Christians aren’t required to keep the feast days ancient Israel kept. However, Catholic leaders have been clearly inspired to select certain New Testament days to foreshadow God’s plan of salvation: Christmas, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Ascension Day, Pentecost (on Sunday), and other meaningful Christian days. The Catholic Church does worship on Sunday instead of Saturday because God led it to bind Sunday on its members since the New Testament Church was founded on a Sunday (on Pentecost, Acts 2). History has proven this decision right, and clearly the Catholic Church has been blessed beyond its wildest dreams after it began worshipping on Sundays. As a Philippine minister, Colin Adair, of the Worldwide Church of God so perfectly stated in regard to a church keeping a sabbath on an unbiblical day: “I personally feel God has over the years made holy the day the Church chose… so that in effect we have not been keeping the wrong day at all! God was in it and the way the Church grew and was blessed all these years surely is additional evidence.” (MINISTERIAL BULLETIN, August 8. 1974, p. 414)

*** Continued in NEXT Post ***

 

[Sir_Knight]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post ***

IV. GOVERNMENT FROM THE TOP DOWN
Throughout the whole Old Testament God’s system of government was a hierarchy that ruled from the top down. God has always worked through one organized hierarchy. In ancient Israel God had captains over the thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. God does things in order, and He always governs from the top down, not from the bottom up. God does not change (Hebrews 13:8). In the New Testament His true church naturally followed this top-down principle of government by submitting to one top human spiritual leader over other ministers of various ranks. Which church has this godly system of government? The Catholic Church, of course!

V. ONE HUMAN HEAD OF THE TRUE CHURCH
God always works through one human head, no matter how imperfect he may be. In the Old Testament, he used Moses, the judges, and the kings. And shouldn’t it be obvious to anyone with even a superficial knowledge of history that the Pope has been the human spiritual leader ever since? Sure the Pope makes mistakes, but not big important ones that would destroy the true church. Maybe the Pope doesn’t have all the qualifications that a minister should have, but who does? And anyway it’s obvious that God is using him! Just look at the fruits. It’s very clear that the Catholic Church has grown bigger than all the other professing Christian churches combined. And remember, all the other churches’ ministers are Satan’s ministers and while some appear as angels of light, they’re just tools in Satan’s hands!

VI. OPEN DOORS TO BE SET BEFORE THE TRUE CHURCH
One of the greatest proofs that the Catholic Church is the true church is the open doors set before it. Just in the last decade alone, the Pope has been granted some extraordinary opportunities to preach the true gospel to world leaders. He has visited India, the United States, Portugal, Columbia, and Israel with full approval of the leaders of those nations. He addressed the United Nations and the World Council of Churches. He has contacted many Communist regimes and has even met the head of the Greek Orthodox Church seeking to promote Christian unity. Only God could be opening such gigantic doors!

VII. THE POPE IS GOD’S AMBASSADOR FOR PEACE
What leaders throughout the Christian era have done more for peace than the popes? Why even today Pope Paul has personally pleaded with leaders from all nations to seek peaceful solutions to their problems. World leaders listen to the Pope when they won’t listen to anyone else. They always extend a special warmth to him and receive him enthusiastically.

VIII. HAPPY, DEDICATED PEOPLE
The dedication of Catholics worldwide is unquestioned. Look at the fantastic sacrifices nuns and priests make voluntarily just to help others and to stay close to God. Other Christian religions don’t have anything to compare with this. Church attendance is much higher among Catholics than among other professing Christians. If they weren’t happy people, Catholics just wouldn’t attend or contribute, would they?

IX. FANTASTIC GROWTH
Christ is not divided (I Corinthians 1: 13). There is really only one true organized church, and that church, the Catholic Church, has been blessed by tremendous growth. No other church produces fruits like this! All other churches were founded by mere uninspired men who refused to abide by God’s government. These collusionists tried to draw away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:29-31) to form their own groups, which history shows have split and resplit and splintered over and over. For instance, there are dozens of little bickering groups called by some form of the name “Catholic Church of God,” all proselytizing among themselves, attacking and condemning each other.

*** Continued in NEXT Post ***

 

[Sir_Knight]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post ***

X. GREAT FAVOR
Certainly no church has been blessed as bountifully as has the Catholic Church of God. Look at the worldwide recognition and respect enjoyed by the Church in almost every country on earth. Ambassadors from all the world’s nations curry the favor of the Catholic Church. This enables the Catholic Church to have favor in influential leaders’ eyes and to print and distribute tons of religious literature in hundreds of languages. At present the Pope doesn’t even have to go seeking to get an audience with world leaders. They eagerly come, hat in hand, to see the Pope at his convenience.

XI. PHYSICAL BLESSINGS
The Catholic Church has been blessed with more physical and spiritual riches than all the other false churches combined. It has billions of dollars in reserve. It has art objects of inestimable value. The Vatican’s gardens and sculptures are unexcelled anywhere in the world. Catholic rulers control many nations, giving those nations a spiritual stability they wouldn’t have with atheistic rulers. The Catholic Church also runs famous colleges and universities worldwide which help impart morals and ethics to an immoral world.

XII. HOUSE FOR GOD
The Catholics were blessed with such tremendous wealth and abundance because of their faith that they were able to erect the magnificent St. Peter’s Basilica in honor of the Great God. It’s filled with tons and tons of the finest imported Italian marble, silver, gold, and the costliest materials and art objects available anywhere. It is without a doubt the highest quality building in existence. Evangelist Frank Brown echoed the proud thoughts of many a Catholic concerning St. Peter’s when he commented, “The overall effect of this beautiful building is very striking… it certainly brings home very forcibly just how much this Work has grown and just how much God has blessed it… It makes it a little easier… to realize a little more how great our God is and how pleased He is that we have been faithful in His Work.” (MINISTERIAL BULLETIN, April 2, 1974, p. 84).

XIII. TIME CYCLES
The number 19 is extremely significant, as almost all Bible Scholars acknowledge. And interestingly, one hundred nineteen-year time cycles have now elapsed since the Catholic Church began-another stamp of godly approval for its existence.

XIV. LENGTH OF EXISTENCE
The Catholic Church has not been in existence as the true church for a mere 40 years, nor for 400 years, but for over 1900 years it has left its mark on all the world. Interestingly, it has also championed a symbol or “mark”-the cross. In Ezekiel 9:4 God had an angel go through Jerusalem putting a mark on the foreheads of those Christians who sighed and cried for the abominations committed there. The Hebrew word here rendered “mark” really means a mark in the shape of a cross. Though this twiggy point is significant, it’s not a major proof. Let’s get back to the basics! Think to yourself: Which church has best stood the test of time? The Catholic Church! Which church has Satan been unable to destroy (Matthew 16:18)? God’s one true church-the Catholic Church

… herbertwarmstrong.com/ar/Catholic.html

 

[ElizabethJoy]

Sir Knight - none of this was written by Herbert W Armstrong. HWA could never have written anything so pro-Catholic. He was a vitriolic Catholic-hater and promoted ONLY “Armstrong-ianity.” The Gospel according to HWA is that ONLY the WWCOG had it right.

This site is an HWA-debunker site and that article was written by John Trechak. (The entire site is quite good at bringing out the crapola and confusion and contradictions within WWCOG and its offshoots, though.)

If only we’d had something like it available in the 70’s. He led a **lot **of people astray. My parents were real seekers - but I think the same thing happened to them as happened to me - we simply never even investigated Catholicism because Catholicism and all mainstream Christianity had been so thoroughly disproven in all those years of listening to The World Tomorrow and reading Plain Truth magazine and doing their utterly ridiculous “Bible studies.”

Elizabeth

 

[Sir_Knight]

I know Herbert didn’t write it because he’s been dead for about ten years but I didn’t know that it was a debunker site. Thanks for the info.