Confusing signs

[Kokomoka]

Vico and to the rest, may I reply to this discussion that may or may not bring some light. May I put simply and this may anger or upset the Orthodox that statements from leaders of the Orthodox Communion do not effect God’s judgement at all. These men can say what they want but in reality they do themselves a disservice to God and to the Church when they make statements regarding the Church of Rome. Honestly are we ever going to wake up and cure this fiasco. I believe that God will have to wait until these men have died so that the next generation will finally bury this feud! I honestly believe we are sinning gravely when we act against God’s wishes to unite the Church. Any statements concerning the Roman Catholic Church from us always seem to be negative. The Roman Catholic Church has the right to be who She is because of Her Apostolic founder St.Peter. When are we ( I am referring to the Orthodox ) going to wake up and finally admit the truth that our Catholic brothers and sisters are the successors of St.Peter’s missionary work and to include them in our own lives! St.Peter is an important Apostle that Our Lord called into His College. He has the right given to him by the Lord and from the Church to exercise that right into the government and service of God’s people so that his successors who are the Popes can continue that service today. Thank God that He called into existence the founding 12 Apostles so that today we still have the successors of those Apostles with the Pope in Rome and the rest in the Eastern Church. Whatever happened in the past all I can say is to bury it! If we are Christians we need to exercise forgiveness to the past whether we were the ones hurt or whether the one who has hurt us. So the Catholics hurt us some 1000 years ago. What are you going to do, remind them everyday. You might as well do that till the Second Coming with the way you are doing it today. We need to forget the past and accept apologies and forgive. How are we ever going to face God by the way we are acting! You can’t go to heaven unless you repent of your sins now in our own prilgrimage so how come we do not do that to our own brothers and sisters. How can you face God when we are criticizing those whom He loves. He is not going to listen to us. He will turn His Face around because we are doing it to people He loves. Why will He listen to us ( I mean the Orthodox ). Christianity is built on Love, Forgiveness, Mercy and Humility. These are the tools we need to exemplified for they are the true signs of a witnessing Church. If we are true to the Gospel then the Church will be united. What I see in the Church is not truth but excuse me something which the world only accepts and that is pride. We need to exercise humility and allow the Lord to unite the Church so that united we can go ahead to witness together in a troubled and messed up world. God Bless!

These are my feelings too. And I think we Catholics should show our Orthodox bretheren Love, Forgiveness, Mercy and most of all Humility too. I’ve struggled with some of the dogmas of the Catholic Church for years and find myself torn between wanting what the Orthodox have and keeping my Catholic Faith. It stings to hear the Catholic Church labeled “heretical” . I see fault on both sides and its time to put all the past behind us and unite and honor each other’s traditions and beliefs. Seems to me that there should be room for all of us. I honestly think this continuing schism is not what our Father wants. I would like to worship in an Orthodox Church and not have to leave all my Catholic traditions behind.
Its a journey and a struggle. God Bless all of you who yearn for unity. +

 

[Vico]

… I honestly think this continuing schism is not what our Father wants. … \quote]

Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, given in 1964, states (from item 3):

“…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. … Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow …”

 

[DavidKays]

Kokomoka;6651679:

… I honestly think this continuing schism is not what our Father wants. … \quote]

Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, given in 1964, states (from item 3):

“…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. … Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow …”

Hi Vico! I read this decree on your post and I must say it was written in 1964 which I believe in my own opinion is not binding towards the Orthodox. Much has been accomplished since then and even if Rome wrote those words they are certainly written at a time when dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics were just beginning. It is my understanding that more needs to be done before Full Communion will be established. However I do believe that in God's eyes we are united, it must grieve Him to see us act this way. I do not believe that there is disunity. I believe we are united always and that only men have done us this disservice by saying we are not. In the end when full communion will be eastablish the only change will be that this is so. It is when men are able to accept the truth that we are united that this feud will end. I will like to make a statement that may or may not help. The Orthodox Church must have Her rightful claim to be alongside the Church of Rome. Rome must allow the Orthodox to have a say in the government of the Church. This is really is what the Orthodox want! A say in the affairs of government which they had in the first 1000 years. Rome must give way to this so that the relationship be restored and the Orthodox be restored to Her rightful claim. His Holiness John Paul II wrote that he is willing to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church of Rome had with them in the beginning. That is all that is necessary to end this. The Orthodox had that right taken away from them and really this is what displeases God. Statements from 1964 mean nothing to Him but grief. What needs to change is statements to what God had originally plan for the Church. Rome must include the Orthodox into those plans. Then God will be pleased. The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are as necessary as bread and water. You can't have one without the other. It is up to our great leaders to bring this about. Thank God for holy men such as John Paul II who have initiated this process and may the next generation accomplish fully this restoration so badly needed for a mess up world. God Bless!

 

[Vico]

… His Holiness John Paul II wrote that he is willing to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church of Rome had with them in the beginning. That is all that is necessary to end this. The Orthodox had that right taken away from them and really this is what displeases God. Statements from 1964 mean nothing to Him but grief. What needs to change is statements to what God had originally plan for the Church…

It is up to our great leaders to bring this about. Thank God for holy men such as John Paul II who have initiated this process and may the next generation accomplish fully this restoration so badly needed for a mess up world. God Bless!

The statements of 1964 are important as a base, and you probably know that in about that time was the mutual lifting of the historic excommunications of 1054 AD by Patriarch Atenagoras I and Pope Paul VI and the remark at that time was:

“5. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod realize that this gesture of justice and mutual pardon is not sufficient to end both old and more recent differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.”
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1965/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_common-declaration_en.html

Then the founding of the 1965 The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation occured followed about 14 years later the Orthodox-Roman Catholic Joint Commission, which eventually produced the Balamand document in 1993. And we know how that is criticized because of various objections about the Greek Catholic churches in Orthodox territories.

It is a truly difficult task.

But then Pope John Paul II issued Orentale Lumen, and in 2001 apologized for the fourth crusade, and returned relics to Constantinople in 2004.

The Ravenna document of 2007, a plan for re-union, seems to be too much to bear for some; understandable, since that document does not clarify the exercise of Papal primacy, a key issue since perhaps even the fifth century. (Pope Leo I & Western Roman Emperor Valentinian III & Eastern Roman Emperor Marcianus).
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

Like you, I do hope that those leaders will be able to work out something to bring us together.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi Vico! Thanks for your post and by the way do you guys ever get any sleep? Must be different time zones! Personally I believe we will see shortly an announcement that will end this terrible seperation. Now when I mean shortly I do not mean tomorrow or in the next 5 years. I mean within a generation or so. Basically the Primacy of the Pope is no big deal for the Orthodox because it was the Orthodox alongside the Church of Rome which decided Primacy in the first place during the first 2 Ecumenical Councils. All Rome has to do is agree to the Orthodox that the Ecumenical Councils decisions will still be intact and that any other developements from the Church of Rome regarding Primacy thrown out. That is what the Orthodox want anyway. Since they ( referring to the Orthodox ) define themselves as heirs to these Councils then any deters from these decisions cannot be binding to them. Rome must act accordingly and accept what the Orthodox have always said that any changes to Primacy must involve them as well. Since Rome acted without their participation then it stands to reason that these decisions from Rome cannot be binding to the Orthodox. The Orthodox are right because this is how the Early Church govern Herself. The Church must when talking on this issues such as Primacy and so on must involve the whole Church and not let one section such as the Orthodox on the sidelines. That was a slap on the face for the Orthodox. All the Orthodox want and this is important, that Rome must include Her in these decisions. Rome`s authority is only to Herself when governing the Church. She must ( I am talking about Rome ) give to the Orthodox equal authority in the Government of the Church. This is what God wants for this is what the Early Church had! Any deviation later on was unfortunate and really grieved God because it tored into the fabric of His own Church. The healing of this unfortunate seperation will occur when Rome must admit Her own faults to this and regard the Orthodox as equal to Herself . Your saintly Popes have now discovered this and in writing have formally apologized to the East which in reality is what God has waited for because this has pleased Him so much so that the next step can now go foward which is the same relationship the East had with Rome from the beginning. That is what God desires! He does not care about useless arguements and countless disagreements, He even cares less about what each Church is teaching. All He cares about is for both of us back together in the same manner as it was during the Early Church. When Rome will make that announcement I do not know. But I am certain someday She will for this will please God so much and enable Him to have His Church fully restored to His original plan. God Bless!

 

[Kokomoka]

Hi Vico! Thanks for your post and by the way do you guys ever get any sleep? Must be different time zones! Personally I believe we will see shortly an announcement that will end this terrible seperation. Now when I mean shortly I do not mean tomorrow or in the next 5 years. I mean within a generation or so. Basically the Primacy of the Pope is no big deal for the Orthodox because it was the Orthodox alongside the Church of Rome which decided Primacy in the first place during the first 2 Ecumenical Councils. All Rome has to do is agree to the Orthodox that the Ecumenical Councils decisions will still be intact and that any other developements from the Church of Rome regarding Primacy thrown out. That is what the Orthodox want anyway. Since they ( referring to the Orthodox ) define themselves as heirs to these Councils then any deters from these decisions cannot be binding to them. Rome must act accordingly and accept what the Orthodox have always said that any changes to Primacy must involve them as well. Since Rome acted without their participation then it stands to reason that these decisions from Rome cannot be binding to the Orthodox. The Orthodox are right because this is how the Early Church govern Herself. The Church must when talking on this issues such as Primacy and so on must involve the whole Church and not let one section such as the Orthodox on the sidelines. That was a slap on the face for the Orthodox. All the Orthodox want and this is important, that Rome must include Her in these decisions. Rome`s authority is only to Herself when governing the Church. She must ( I am talking about Rome ) give to the Orthodox equal authority in the Government of the Church. This is what God wants for this is what the Early Church had! Any deviation later on was unfortunate and really grieved God because it tored into the fabric of His own Church. The healing of this unfortunate seperation will occur when Rome must admit Her own faults to this and regard the Orthodox as equal to Herself . Your saintly Popes have now discovered this and in writing have formally apologized to the East which in reality is what God has waited for because this has pleased Him so much so that the next step can now go foward which is the same relationship the East had with Rome from the beginning. That is what God desires! He does not care about useless arguements and countless disagreements, He even cares less about what each Church is teaching. All He cares about is for both of us back together in the same manner as it was during the Early Church. When Rome will make that announcement I do not know. But I am certain someday She will for this will please God so much and enable Him to have His Church fully restored to His original plan. God Bless!

I’m praying that this does happen in my lifetime. I’m sure I’m not the only one who is torn between the two churches. This may sound selfish, but I want what both have. I want it all. I don’t think our Lord has a problem with it, but our churches do. I have to choose, and its breaking my heart and soul. I wish our Holy Leaders (East and West) would remember the Faithful in all this.
Thank you for the two (above) postings. It fills my heart with hope. Nothing is impossible with prayer. God Bless !!!