Confusion about infallibility

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presidentjlh

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I admit, I know very little about the world. I am not a wise man, I don’t have the answers. But I do try my best. I am trying very hard to be a good Catholic.

However, while I am doing my best to accept to accept all required teachings, often I find myself confused.

The idea of infallibility has always been very, very difficult for me to grasp. I do understand that it does not mean that Popes and Clergy cannot possibly sin. Yes, they are sinners, just like myself (Although I am fairly sure that any sins Pope Benedict XVI commits are barely anything compared to mine.) However, the idea that there are certain Church teachings that are infallible, while I try to accept this, still trouble me.

Yes, I understand that, according to Church teaching, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. But, I still am troubled. In a post I made on another thread, I noted the Church’s incorrect position when it came to the question of whether or not the solar system was heliocentric or geocentric. By itself, this does not cause a problem. The problem I find is that the Church said that the idea that the Solar System is heliocentric is contrary to Scripture (and thus, they found Galileo “vehemently suspect of heresy”).

This means that, if I am understanding the whole thing correctly, the Church declared that the idea of the Solar System being geocentric is a truth that must not be disagreed with (otherwise Galileo wouldn’t have been in trouble for what he was teaching), and therefore, is this not an infallible teaching? But, this is wrong, as we do know that the Solar System is heliocentric, and the Church has found that to be the truth as well. But doesn’t this mean that the Church had to reverse an infallible teaching?

What about Vatican II? I find that many people seem to think of Vatican II as well-intended, but in the end, it was a mistake. But this can’t be true, because the Church can’t be mistaken, right?

As I said in a previous post, I try so very hard to accept both Christ’s and the Church’s teachings, but I feel so limited by all this uncertainty. for some teachings of the Church strike me as sketchy, yet, I think, “Well, you’re just thinking this because you are filled with pride and you hate the truth.” and then I get confused again. So I just think, “Just go with the Church, you might as well.” Even though there is a part of me that thinks, “But that just makes absolutely no sense in any way at all.” And I’m not happy that a part of me thinks that, but I still wonder, because sometimes it appears that the Church is not infallible, and I again feel confused. It’s giving me a headache really.
 
This means that, if I am understanding the whole thing correctly, the Church declared that the idea of the Solar System being geocentric is a truth that must not be disagreed with (otherwise Galileo wouldn’t have been in trouble for what he was teaching), and therefore, is this not an infallible teaching? But, this is wrong, as we do know that the Solar System is heliocentric, and the Church has found that to be the truth as well. But doesn’t this mean that the Church had to reverse an infallible teaching?
The decree of a local branch of the Inquisition against Galileo cannot be considered infallible. So I don’t know why the incident would cause you concern.

What other teachings of the Church are giving you a headache?

Blessings
 
The decree of a local branch of the Inquisition against Galileo cannot be considered infallible. So I don’t know why the incident would cause you concern.

What other teachings of the Church are giving you a headache?

Blessings
Well, I, personally, have no problems with Vatican II, as it is Canon Law and what not. Yet, some say it has been a mistake, and that it is hurting the Church. But, Vatican II’s teachings were definitely infallible teachings, if I understand correctly. While I am, of course, siding with those who think Vatican II was not a mistake, I am still confused. It is argued that the Church moved away from the faith as they promoted ecumenism and religious liberty. While I have no problem with ecumenism and religious liberty (I actually believe those two things to be quite good), do they go against old infallible teachings of the Church?
 
Well, I, personally, have no problems with Vatican II, as it is Canon Law and what not. Yet, some say it has been a mistake, and that it is hurting the Church. But, Vatican II’s teachings were definitely infallible teachings, if I understand correctly. While I am, of course, siding with those who think Vatican II was not a mistake, I am still confused. It is argued that the Church moved away from the faith as they promoted ecumenism and religious liberty. While I have no problem with ecumenism and religious liberty (I actually believe those two things to be quite good), do they go against old infallible teachings of the Church?
Ecumenism is ancient. For example St. Justin Martyr and St. Clement of Alexandria recognized that the religions that predate Christianity have elements of Truth within them. How is that different from the ecumenism of today?

And religious liberty is nothing more than the principle that faith cannot be coerced, which is an ideal present among the early Fathers of the Church as well. I think both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church lived in an atmosphere of state-sanctioned religion for so long, it was considered normative, and even theologically normative, to have only one acceptable religion in society. In truth, that was simply a symptom of the society, not a theological norm.

In truth, the only way ecumenism and religious liberty can theologically be against the “old” infallible teachings of the Church is if those two teachings deny the primacy of Catholic Truth. I’ve found that despite ecumenism and religious liberty, the Catholic Church has never failed to proclaim the primacy of the Catholic Faith for the sake of salvation.

Do you find it otherwise?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I admit, I know very little about the world. I am not a wise man, I don’t have the answers. But I do try my best. I am trying very hard to be a good Catholic.

However, while I am doing my best to accept to accept all required teachings, often I find myself confused.

The idea of infallibility has always been very, very difficult for me to grasp. I do understand that it does not mean that Popes and Clergy cannot possibly sin. Yes, they are sinners, just like myself (Although I am fairly sure that any sins Pope Benedict XVI commits are barely anything compared to mine.) However, the idea that there are certain Church teachings that are infallible, while I try to accept this, still trouble me.

Yes, I understand that, according to Church teaching, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. But, I still am troubled. In a post I made on another thread, I noted the Church’s incorrect position when it came to the question of whether or not the solar system was heliocentric or geocentric. By itself, this does not cause a problem. The problem I find is that the Church said that the idea that the Solar System is heliocentric is contrary to Scripture (and thus, they found Galileo “vehemently suspect of heresy”).

This means that, if I am understanding the whole thing correctly, the Church declared that the idea of the Solar System being geocentric is a truth that must not be disagreed with (otherwise Galileo wouldn’t have been in trouble for what he was teaching), and therefore, is this not an infallible teaching? But, this is wrong, as we do know that the Solar System is heliocentric, and the Church has found that to be the truth as well. But doesn’t this mean that the Church had to reverse an infallible teaching?

What about Vatican II? I find that many people seem to think of Vatican II as well-intended, but in the end, it was a mistake. But this can’t be true, because the Church can’t be mistaken, right?

As I said in a previous post, I try so very hard to accept both Christ’s and the Church’s teachings, but I feel so limited by all this uncertainty. for some teachings of the Church strike me as sketchy, yet, I think, “Well, you’re just thinking this because you are filled with pride and you hate the truth.” and then I get confused again. So I just think, “Just go with the Church, you might as well.” Even though there is a part of me that thinks, “But that just makes absolutely no sense in any way at all.” And I’m not happy that a part of me thinks that, but I still wonder, because sometimes it appears that the Church is not infallible, and I again feel confused. It’s giving me a headache really.
The Pope can only claim infallibility if he is making an official spiritual or moral dogma of the Church. Since the solar system is not based on the spirituality or morality, it was not an infallible teaching.
 
Ecumenism is ancient. For example St. Justin Martyr and St. Clement of Alexandria recognized that the religions that predate Christianity have elements of Truth within them. How is that different from the ecumenism of today?

And religious liberty is nothing more than the principle that faith cannot be coerced, which is an ideal present among the early Fathers of the Church as well. I think both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church lived in an atmosphere of state-sanctioned religion for so long, it was considered normative, and even theologically normative, to have only one acceptable religion in society. In truth, that was simply a symptom of the society, not a theological norm.

In truth, the only way ecumenism and religious liberty can theologically be against the “old” infallible teachings of the Church is if those two teachings deny the primacy of Catholic Truth. I’ve found that despite ecumenism and religious liberty, the Catholic Church has never failed to proclaim the primacy of the Catholic Faith for the sake of salvation.

Do you find it otherwise?

Blessings,
Marduk
I see, these things make sense. It does stand to reason that religious freedom is good, provided that the Church continues to proclaim its primacy. And, indeed, I have never had a problem with ecumenism.

Now, my next question is as follows: Are all papal encyclicals infallible teachings? If not, which was the last infallible teaching?
 
Well, I, personally, have no problems with Vatican II, as it is Canon Law and what not. Yet, some say it has been a mistake, and that it is hurting the Church. But, Vatican II’s teachings were definitely infallible teachings, if I understand correctly. While I am, of course, siding with those who think Vatican II was not a mistake, I am still confused. It is argued that the Church moved away from the faith as they promoted ecumenism and religious liberty. While I have no problem with ecumenism and religious liberty (I actually believe those two things to be quite good), do they go against old infallible teachings of the Church?
There are not any extraordinary Magisterial statements in Vatican II that I have seen, and I have read the entire document. There have always been ecumenical efforts in Church history. Check out the Council of Florence of 1431. piar.hu/councils/ecum17.htm Whatever ecumenical steps are called for in Vatican II, they cannot “undo” the teachings of prior plenary councils. It is certain private interpretations of Vatican II that put it at odds with prior Church teaching.
 
The First Vatican Council, in the affirmation of the infallibility of the Sovereign Pontiff, explicitly gave the limits to the assistance of the Holy Ghost:

The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of Faith, and might faithfully set it forth. (Db 1836 in The Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 456)

As I read this, it appears the the deposit of Faith ended with the apostles and was handed down to them directly from Jesus Christ. In turn, the apostles taught us everything that Christ taught them.

“I will ask the Father and he will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever…But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you.” (John 14:16, 26)

“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and teach all nations…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)

So, when the Pope speaks infallibly, he is not introducing any “new” doctrine or dogma. Rather, he is merely defining, promulgating, and protecting the truths revealed to the apostles by Christ. I hope this helps…

God Bless
 
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