Confusion and Fear about Christian Eschatology

[KingDavid]

Hi everyone!

I was looking at some posts about the covid aftermath and started to wonder about the correct interpretation of Matthew 24, Luke 21 and The Book of Revelation (that is, christian eschatology).

In context, these passages seem to me to speak about the destruction of the Second Temple, not really the actual End of Time. When they talk of “the end of the age” couldn’t that mean the end of the Ancient World and the transition to the Middle Ages (the golden millennium of Christianity)? That is, weren’t be Middle Ages really the Millennium Kingdom after all? Couldn’t the “Sign of the Son of Man appearing in the skies” refer to the vision of Emperor Constantine The Great (the Chi Rho in the skies)?

What is your personal interpretation of these passages and what is the official version held by the Catholic Church? I’ve heard some of the last popes have said we’re living in the End Times and that scares me a bit. I am also aware of all the crazy evangelical conspiracy theorists (BILL GATES IS THE ANTICHRIST 666 MICROCHIPS MAAAN!) and they look like a big stretch to me. But I myself am not sure what to make of it all. Is preterism true? Is it all just a metaphor?

I’m also scared about apostasy, the lost of the christian way of life and the death of christian communities. Right now I only have like 10 christian friends and even these ones are not really devout at all. Yesterday I was looking back at the previous centuries, all the great things which I have not lived through and the beauty that must have been to live in a truly and fully christian town or village. I looked at pictures of the old medieval and gothic churches of the old christian Europe and cried a lot thinking of all we’re losing in these horrible, artificial, ugly and blasphemous times! I think of the destruction of marriage, the lost of good manners and chastity, and baby-murdering feminists destroying statues of the Virgin Mary - and I can’t help but fear the time is up for mankind. It makes me so sad!

Not that I don’t want Christ to return - if it’s really supposed to be a literal return after all. But I just came back to the faith and wish I could fully live this beautiful and holy life and pass it down the generations before it all blows up… God have mercy on us all!

 

[Hume]

I think the view offered by my one-time priest of “Just don’t worry about it. It’s not really part of your daily walk” is probably the best advice.

The disciples thought they were going to live to see the return. Why they waited so long to write.

We’re nearly 2000 years down the road and still no clear sign that wasn’t also as clear in other times.

Wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

To my knowledge, the Church does not hold an official position about these passages as they relate to the end of the world, however there are pretty well established positions about how they relate to Jesus’ age.

For example, the destruction of the Temple clearly relates to the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is also a record around that time, I think from Josephus, of a cross made of light appearing above the temple. I believe I read about that in either Hostile Witnesses or What Jesus Really Said About the End of the World. (Sorry, I can’t remember exactly and don’t have time to look it up.)

Do not listen to the doomsday ramblings of the Evangelicals and other protestant denominations. Jesus said that no man knows the time, and they’ve been wrong 100% of the time. Don’t pay them any mind.

As for Apostasy, focus on your own walk with God and the Church. What will happen will happen, pray and keep on the narrow path. God will sort everything out in the end, just help who you can.

Since you are interested in this topic, I highly, HIGHLY, recommend that second book I linked to. It goes into great detail about the structure and meaning of Matthew 24, and shows how it can be applied to both the time of Jesus and the future. It is a deeply-engrossing read. Having told you about it, I think I’m going to reread it. XD

 

[EndTimes]

what is the official version held by the Catholic Church?

Since the Ascension God’s plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at “the last hour”. “Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect.” Christ’s kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.

. . .until all things are subjected to him

Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace. According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by “distress” and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.568

The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.
The Church’s ultimate trial

** Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

 

[Gorgias]

In context, these passages seem to me to speak about the destruction of the Second Temple, not really the actual End of Time.

Some speak to the former, and others to the latter.

What is your personal interpretation of these passages and what is the official version held by the Catholic Church?

Umm… “no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of private interpretation”, right, so… why does “personal interpretation” matter?

The Church teaches that these are the ‘end times’ – they began at the founding of the Church, and they’ll end at the end of time! No worries!

Don’t worry about the “crazy evangelical conspiracy theorists”; they would do well to remember that “no man knows the day nor the hour”.

Catholic teaching is generally preterist with respect to the Book of Revelation – there are things there which describe events which are in the author’s future but in our past. Yet, it’s important to remember what the genre of apocalyptic (which is the genre of the texts you’re discussing) is all about: people who are being persecuted are being reassured that God has it all figured out, and He will reward the just and punish the wicked. In the end, all righteousness will be restored. It’s not a message of anxiety, but a message of comfort!

I think of the destruction of marriage, the lost of good manners and chastity, and baby-murdering feminists destroying statues of the Virgin Mary - and I can’t help but fear the time is up for mankind.

Wait – who ever said that those things would bring on the eschaton? I don’t see that in Scripture or Church teaching… do you?

Not that I don’t want Christ to return - if it’s really supposed to be a literal return after all.

Yes, it is.

 

[KingDavid]

Why they waited so long to write.

Interesting, I didn’t know about this! I thought they took “so long” (not that long really) to write because they were occupied travelling and preaching.

I believe I read about that in either Hostile Witnesses or What Jesus Really Said About the End of the World. (Sorry, I can’t remember exactly and don’t have time to look it up.)

Just added them to my reading list. Thank you brother!

It’s not a message of anxiety, but a message of comfort!

Yeah, I’d do well to remember that!

I was thinking like “if He returns and the world ends then I won’t enjoy some of the best things the christian life has to offer”… But I realize now that Heaven and the Reign of the Lord will be even better! It’s actually a nonsensical question, like asking if “Infinity + 1 is bigger than Infinity”

 

[KingDavid]

Fitting name for this post! hahaha

The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.

Oh, I see. Well that will take a while, I guess…

The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

Sound like Oprah hahahaha!
But it’s kind of true actuallt… People believe what feels good for them, not what is true. I was talking to an atheist friend of mine the other day and he literally said he didn’t even want to hear the arguments for God’s existence! People are running from God! It’s just a matter of time before they start to deify themselves…

 

[TheLittleLady]

Be not afraid. Christ has overcome the world.

Stay away from the “Rapture Trap” stuff (unless it is the good book BY that title!), stop reading whatever it is that gives you such a negative and frightening view of our world.

Look out the window, take a long walk.

 

[KingDavid]

Wait – who ever said that those things would bring on the eschaton?

Oh no, it’s not in scripture but I think it would make sense.

There’s a mathematical model (don’t remember the name) that simulates group convergence through successive repetitions. And at one point all groups converge and don’t change back.

So applying this to the history of salvation, at some point all of humanity should permanently converge into “people who accept God” and “people who reject Him”. So if God wants all to be saved, the world would likely end just at the point after which not even one additional person would choose salvation. And given the atmosphere (“destruction of marriage, the lost of good manners and chastity, and baby-murdering feminists destroying statues of the Virgin Mary”), we may be coming to that point.

I know it’s way more complicated than that and I have problems (I’m an econ major)… But it makes sense right?
I think it’s like God is solving the mathematical problem: EndTimes = argmax[People Saved], subject to {Freewill, Group Convergece}

 

[KingDavid]

take a long walk

I’m under quarentine! hahahah
But thanks for the kind words, I’ll relax and let God’s will be done

 

[EndTimes]

Oh, I see. Well that will take a while, I guess…

No. You do not know the when, Dave…

 

[StudentMI]

“Rapture Trap”

That would be a good name for a sitcom focusing on a fundamentalist family who are prepared for the rapture.

 

[EndTimes]

Confusion and Fear about Christian Eschatology

there shall be increasing fear amongst non-believers as the signs preceding our Lord’s arrival occur… .

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Wait – who ever said that those things would bring on the eschaton?

Oh no, it’s not in scripture but I think it would make sense.

It’s kinda ironic that you say that. There were Christians who believed this to be true – that is, that the ‘thousand year reign’ would culminate in a kind of utopian ‘heaven on earth’. (The problem is that God doesn’t promise, Jesus doesn’t promise it, and the apostles and Scripture never promise it, either.) But, these folks thought “it made sense”, so they believed in it. Then the 20th century came: world wars, multiple pogroms of attempted genocide, death and destruction on scales never before imagined, and those who pictured “the world consistently improving until we reach utopia and Jesus returns” said, “oh… guess we were wrong about that, huh?”

So applying this to the history of salvation, at some point all of humanity should permanently converge into “people who accept God” and “people who reject Him”.

When you get a minute, re-read the Noah story in Genesis. But, don’t stop at the ‘rainbow’, because the story doesn’t end there. You see, the premise of the Noah epic is what you’ve just suggested, in a sense. It’s all about God forcing the ‘convergence’ – kill all the evil people (who reject God), leaving only the good people (who accept Him). But, what do we see after the covenant? Noah does something really bad, and then his sons do something really, really bad… leading to Noah cursing his not-yet-even-born (but maybe just-conceived?) grandson! The Noah story is all about proving that there’s no ‘convergence’ – each person must make his own decisions, moment by moment, whether to turn toward virtue or toward vice.

I know it’s way more complicated than that and I have problems (I’m an econ major)… But it makes sense right?

Think of it this way: it’s a micro problem which does not converge on a macro scale.

I think it’s like God is solving the mathematical problem: EndTimes = argmax[People Saved], subject to {Freewill, Group Convergece}

It’s a nice thought – and I get what you’re saying! – but God never promises that.

TheLittleLady:

take a long walk

I’m under quarentine! hahahah

Walk alone, then!

there shall be increasing fear amongst non-believers as the signs preceding our Lord’s arrival occur… .

The “signs preceding our Lord’s arrival” have been occurring since the moment He uttered those words.

 

[KingDavid]

Yeah, this makes more sense. Thank you!

 

[Hume]

Interesting, I didn’t know about this! I thought they took “so long” (not that long really) to write because they were occupied travelling and preaching.

A written sermon, copied, can travel to more places than you can. Paul demonstrates this with his writings.

Either way, regardless of the reasoning, Paul was dead before the gospel writers began Mark. They were grey-beards when they wrote and the general consensus among academics without a religious “dog in the fight” is that they were becoming old men. If they were recruited by Jesus as young as 13, Mark would have been written when they were near 50. If they were closer to Jesus’s age at the time of recruitment, they’d have been in their mid-60s when Mark was written.

The other gospels were written at least 15 years later. Maybe 30 (in the case of John).

Average life expectancy wasn’t as high then as it is now, even removing child-mortality bias. They were near the expected and average end of their natural lives.

 

[BartholomewB]

Please take a look at these nine paragraphs (#1042-1050) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I think you will find it answers your question about the Catholic Church’s official position on the end times.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2Q.HTM

 

[Dan_Defender]

I personally prefer the preterist interpretation. Which means we are living in the thousand (not literal) years with Christ. At some point we will get the second coming and the final judgment but nobody knows the day or the hour.
‘Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.’ - Matt 6:34

 

[Gorgias]

Either way, regardless of the reasoning, Paul was dead before the gospel writers began Mark.

That’s a nice story – and it was all the rage decades ago – but the “no earlier than 80AD” theory is contested by many reputable Scripture scholars, including many of the best Catholic scholars of the past 30 years. By that theory, Paul wasn’t dead prior to the composition of the earliest Gospel. Nice story… but not terribly as bullet-proof as you make it out to be.

If they were recruited by Jesus as young as 13, Mark would have been written when they were near 50. If they were closer to Jesus’s age at the time of recruitment, they’d have been in their mid-60s when Mark was written.

If they were written in the late 60’s A.D., then that’s less than 30 years from Jesus’ crucifixion. A man of Jesus’ age would have been less than 60. Not too far-fetched.

The other gospels were written at least 15 years later. Maybe 30 (in the case of John).

That dating proceeds from the theory that no one could have predicted the fall of Jerusalem, and therefore, had to have been written well enough after it in order to insert a ‘fake prophecy’. In other words… that theory presumes that Jesus wasn’t the Son of God. Yep… that’s a reliable theory that we can get behind.

(John was probably written late in the first century, by this train of thought… and still not unbelievable for a long-lived eyewitness.)

Average life expectancy wasn’t as high then as it is now

Which is not the same thing as saying that there weren’t people who lived long lives. It just means that the average was lower than today.

 

[EndTimes]

Confusion and Fear about Christian Eschatology

there shall be increasing fear amongst non-believers as the signs preceding our Lord’s arrival occur… .

Yes . and it’s possible that some now who like Saul once did - rebel against the Lord Jesus,
shall have Seconds Thoughts when more Signs come upon the scene…

After all, Jesus is the Messiah of all.