Confusion I have over some practices of the faith

[DeProfundis1]

Is there any way the following things can be supported by the word of God alone?

1.) Bow, adore and kiss statues.
communio.stblogs.org/2010%20romae%20bambino%20gesu.JPG
ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kiss.jpg

2.) Pray towards the bones of Mary Magdalene, not for her but to her.
nola.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/10/mary_magdalene_relic_on_exhibi.html

3.) Pray towards people other than the Father and Christs name. Please use scripture that supports it. I know the saints aren’t dead, but their name is still not Christ nor the Father. This is what Christ said,

• Luke 11:1-3. One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” He said to them, “When you pray, say: FATHER, hallowed be your name,…"
• Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
• John14:14. “Ask anything in my NAME and it will be given to you”.
• John 16:23-24. “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my NAME. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Thanks

 

[pablope]

Is there any way the following things can be supported by the word of God alone?

1.) Bow, adore and kiss statues.
communio.stblogs.org/2010%20romae%20bambino%20gesu.JPG
ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kiss.jpg

2.) Pray towards the bones of Mary Magdalene, not for her but to her.
nola.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/10/mary_magdalene_relic_on_exhibi.html

3.) Pray towards people other than the Father and Christs name. Please use scripture that supports it. I know the saints aren’t dead, but their name is still not Christ nor the Father. This is what Christ said,

• Luke 11:1-3. One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” He said to them, “When you pray, say: FATHER, hallowed be your name,…"
• Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
• John14:14. “Ask anything in my NAME and it will be given to you”.
• John 16:23-24. “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my NAME. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Thanks

Praying does not mean worship. Prayers are pleas, petitions, personal communion or communication with God, there are also prayers of thanks…for mediation, meditation.

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Where does the Bible say everything has to be in the Bible?

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participatio

 

[pablope]

Is there any way the following things can be supported by the word of God alone?

1.) Bow, adore and kiss statues.
communio.stblogs.org/2010%20romae%20bambino%20gesu.JPG
ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kiss.jpg

2.) Pray towards the bones of Mary Magdalene, not for her but to her.
nola.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/10/mary_magdalene_relic_on_exhibi.html

3.) Pray towards people other than the Father and Christs name. Please use scripture that supports it. I know the saints aren’t dead, but their name is still not Christ nor the Father. This is what Christ said,

• Luke 11:1-3. One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” He said to them, “When you pray, say: FATHER, hallowed be your name,…"
• Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
• John14:14. “Ask anything in my NAME and it will be given to you”.
• John 16:23-24. “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my NAME. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Thanks

IV. Veneration / Honor of the Saints

Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her “Hail, full of grace.” The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God’s children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is “imitating” the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of “more” glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God’s goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don’t those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor “the face of an old man.” When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

Top

 

[pablope]

Is there any way the following things can be supported by the word of God alone?

1.) Bow, adore and kiss statues.
communio.stblogs.org/2010%20romae%20bambino%20gesu.JPG
ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kiss.jpg

2.) Pray towards the bones of Mary Magdalene, not for her but to her.
nola.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/10/mary_magdalene_relic_on_exhibi.html

3.) Pray towards people other than the Father and Christs name. Please use scripture that supports it. I know the saints aren’t dead, but their name is still not Christ nor the Father. This is what Christ said,

• Luke 11:1-3. One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” He said to them, “When you pray, say: FATHER, hallowed be your name,…"
• Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
• John14:14. “Ask anything in my NAME and it will be given to you”.
• John 16:23-24. “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my NAME. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Thanks

m, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.

Top

V. Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 24:52 - Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.

1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple.

Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.

Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.

 

[marty1818]

Take a look at these and see if it helps clear things up for you.

1. catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues
   catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship
2. catholic.com/tracts/relics
3. catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

 

[DeProfundis1]

Pablope, that is very helpful, thanks. I will look into all these passages. However I’m still a little confused because the bowing and adoring going on in the passages you list are not towards objects, (except the Temple), which is Gods holy place. I think we all can agree the Lord deserves our praise, but I just don’t see it honoring to do it towards a material object.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Pablope, that is very helpful, thanks. I will look into all these passages. However I’m still a little confused because the bowing and adoring going on in the passages you list are not towards objects, (except the Temple), which is Gods holy place. I think we all can agree the Lord deserves our praise, but I just don’t see it honoring to do it towards a material object.

Relics, pictures and statues are not kissed or venerated because we beleive they hold special powers. Thy are kissed, and venerated because they aid us in uplifiting our hearts to God. The saints are saints because their lives and examples manfiest God’s love and presences and because they continually point towards Christ. We can also see this veneration happening in the Old Testament Church; take for example the Jews in the Old Testament venerated the Ark of the Covenant which also held relics like Aarons Rod, the Ten Commandments, and Manna. Please note that the Jews thought it was an insult to God not to venerate these holy relics and objects.

It would also be good to know that there are different forms of honor given and they are; latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is honor given to God only, while dulia would be honor you would give humans worthy of respect like the apostles, and saints. This honor we show by venerating their memories; hence the statues and relics. The last form is hyperdulia which is the honor we give to the Blessed Virgin Mary since she is the createst of all God’s creation and worthy of such veneration. She is the New Testaments Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Anniejoe]

deProfundis,

Do you ask your mother, grandmother, or dear friends to pray for you? If someone hugs, kisses, or bows to an honored relative, do you consider that wrong?

 

[Creo]

Pablope, that is very helpful, thanks. I will look into all these passages. However I’m still a little confused because the bowing and adoring going on in the passages you list are not towards objects, (except the Temple), which is Gods holy place. I think we all can agree the Lord deserves our praise, but I just don’t see it honoring to do it towards a material object.

It’s not just an object, but what it represents. I sometimes look at a picture of my dad (who is no longer with ius), or a picture of my kids, and kiss the picture. Am I kissing the paper it was printed on, or am I sending them a kiss?

Also, please keep in mind the bible was written many centuries ago, and some miracles and or apparitions, or personal revelations have been experienced. Do we ignore those messages from God?

 

[midori]

Mark 5:21-32
21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”.

Jairus’ request was for Jesus to come and lay his hands on his daughter himself. But the ill woman’s faith was such that she knew she would be cured if she could only touch Jesus’ clothes. Did Jesus’ clothes have any spectacular powers in and of themselves? Of course not. But just by touching an object associated with Jesus, she had the faith that she would be cured as effectively as if she had requested the healing as directly as Jairus had.

The same thing is true of relics. They’re not important in and of themselves-- they might be bits of bone, or clothing, or hair, or something else. But they provide a visual, spiritual, or mental connection with the saint who was associated with that relic-- the connection depends on the person doing the praying. We honor the saints because they have achieved what we all strive for-- spending Eternity in the presence of God, and we strive to imitate them, and request their assistance in developing our own relationship with God.

 

[Mintaka]

That’s not exactly true about relics.

God the Son became incarnate as a man, in part to make the human body sanctified by God. When we are baptized and become part of Christ’s Body, our own normal human bodies become part of Christ’s Body also. As we become more and more sanctified/justified by God and freely respond to Him by following His Way and taking on more of His Life and Truth, our bodies as well as our souls become imbued with His Life.

Someone who’s a great saint has a body that’s just a little bit more like Christ’s Body than the average Joe or Mary does. Since Christ’s Life is in that body, Christ can readily work miracles through that person when living, and even through dead parts.

Christians have always been big on cherishing the bodies of their dead and stowing them reverently, but the early Christians kept the holy bodies of their holy martyrs right under the altars of their places of worship. In many ways, relics and altars were akin, because saints offer themselves up to God from their bodies, and because of course our bodies were known to be temples of God.

Which gives us a hint about just how amazingly amazing our glorified bodies will be, after the general Resurrection of the dead.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Is there any way the following things can be supported by the word of God alone?

1.) Bow, adore and kiss statues.
communio.stblogs.org/2010%20romae%20bambino%20gesu.JPG
ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/kiss.jpg

2.) Pray towards the bones of Mary Magdalene, not for her but to her.
nola.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/10/mary_magdalene_relic_on_exhibi.html

3.) Pray towards people other than the Father and Christs name. Please use scripture that supports it. I know the saints aren’t dead, but their name is still not Christ nor the Father. This is what Christ said,

• Luke 11:1-3. One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” He said to them, “When you pray, say: FATHER, hallowed be your name,…"
• Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
• John14:14. “Ask anything in my NAME and it will be given to you”.
• John 16:23-24. “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in MY NAME. Until now you have not asked for anything in my NAME. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”

I want to know if you can support these 3 things with scripture, not your own words.

Thanks

Catholics don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, but nice try.