Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21

[Isaiah45_9]

…your problem is reading things into Scripture; here’s an excellent example of how it works:

46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:46-48a)

It is the very early Church that believes that Baptism is necessary for Salvation; even in the case where people are demonstrating the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Baptism brings them into Fellowship with Christ and His Mystical Body!

Maran atha!

Angel

Ok, I ask:

Can you baptize without faith and be considered saved?

What do you believe then is required for Salvation?

In the scripture you quoted, baptism was performed after the Holy Spirit was received by them (They already had Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ). Peter ordered in the name of Jesus Christ for them to be baptized. In obedience they were baptized.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;8039743]Pat,

I am well aware of:

James 1:22-25
James 2:14-19
Matthew 25:31-46
John 5:28-29
Luke 10:25-28
Romans 2:13
Romans 2:5-11

The biggest issue would be to look at what Faith is.

There is works without faith.

But how can there be no works with faith?
How can one claim to have faith in our Lord and not surrender the life given by Him to Him?
How can one believe and trust without letting the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work in him?
The presence of Faith, the manifestation of Faith is but work.

Faith makes work.

Work is nothing without Faith.

God Bless you as well.

LOVED your reply and I agree with it

Amen! Brother:thumbsup:

 

[mackbrislawn]

Ok, I ask:

Can you baptize without faith and be considered saved?

What do you believe then is required for Salvation?

In the scripture you quoted, baptism was performed after the Holy Spirit was received by them (They already had Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ). Peter ordered in the name of Jesus Christ for them to be baptized. In obedience they were baptized.

Can you be baptized without your having faith and be considered saved? Of course that is not Catholic terminology. Saved is when you actually enter heaven. We don’t consider that when we are bapized we are “saved.”

In my opinion, just my opinion, that indeed if one is baptized without his having faith, his original sin is washed away anyway (just like a kid’s dirt is washed away when his mother puts him in the bathtub, whether he likes it or not). However, immediately the one without faith sins again, so acquires actual sin. So, his having been baptized certainly does not guarantee he will go to heaven.

Having your sins forgiven is required for salvation. Of course, if you do not believe in Jesus, if you do not believe the rather fantastic idea He rose from the dead, if you do not believe He has the power to forgive sins, you obviously will not ask Jesus to forgive your sins. That is why having faith in Jesus and His power comes first.

But if you do believe in Jesus, you will realize you are a sinner and need to have your sins removed, washed away, forgiven. Washing away your sins is something youi absolutely cannot do on your own. Nothing you can do will remove your sins. But, if you have faith in Jesus, you will appeal to Him to forgive your sins, resulting in a clear conscience. I think that is what 1Peter 3:21 is about. See also Acts 2:38. Acts 2:38 is the foundational verse for understanding all subsequent parts of the NT. Saying the the sinner’s prayer is fine, but the God-given way to pray to God for a clear conscience is baptism. Baptism is a pure gift from God, and we can do nothing to earn it.

The ones who had faith in Jesus and who had received the Holy Spirit, still did not have their sins forgiven. Therefore they needed to be baptized in the recognized offcial manner.
As a side effect baptism is an initiation ceremony into the church, the people of God.

So, it wasn’t just in obedience they were baptized, but to forgive their sins. I’m a little puzzled by the idea that we are baptized merely as a gesture of obedience. Jesus doesn’t command us to be baptized just to see if we will obey, but He commands us to be baptized because that is the visible mechanism He has set up for sins to be washed away.

Having a visible activity associated with a spiritual or physical effect is common throughout scripture and would easily be understood and accepted by the people.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;8043194]Ok, I ask:

Can you baptize without faith and be considered saved?

What do you believe then is required for Salvation?

In the scripture you quoted, baptism was performed after the Holy Spirit was received by them (They already had Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ). Peter ordered in the name of Jesus Christ for them to be baptized. In obedience they were baptized.

***Depends on the SPECIFICS of the baptism.

In the case of Infant Baptism; Faith is assumed from their parents and God-parents. So YES!

For an adult Faith is a requirement. Accepting or lying ones way into the sacrament without the right ententions would invalidate the EFFECTS, but not the sacrament.***

God Bless,
Pat

 

[jcrichton]

Ok, I ask:

Can you baptize without faith and be considered saved?

What do you believe then is required for Salvation?

In the scripture you quoted, baptism was performed after the Holy Spirit was received by them (They already had Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ). Peter ordered in the name of Jesus Christ for them to be baptized. In obedience they were baptized.

…Peter ordered… why do you think that happened?.. the Way is not as our way–simple logic dictates that we take a written test rather than a driving test first in order to get our driver’s lisence… it is not so with God (those who were the last will be the first); God searches our hearts and mind… that’s why the centurian came to Jesus and demonstrated more Faith than all of Israel (just say the Word)–was he Baptized? It does not say… but it is quite possible that this man hadn’t the slightest understanding about what was taking place, let alone seek Baptism!

The Grace of the Holy Spirit is just that, Grace! We do not obtain Salvation because we are granted Grace; God can, through our experience, bring us into the Path (Saul, why do you persecute me?); but it is compliance (which you have pointed out) to God’s Word that we enter into Salvation; so if Christ states that Baptism is the Way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, how can anyone, least of all a professed disciple, reject Baptism?

St. Peter rightly orders that those who are demonstrating the Grace granted by the Holy Spirit be Baptized since His Master Commanded:

19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (St. Matthew 28:19)

…and talk about humble obedience… what did the eunuch claim once Philip brought him up to speed (Acts 8:26-39), ‘boy… I’m the best; God’s Holy Spirit made a special Visitation and brought me a great Teacher… now I know the right Scriptures… now I’m Saved’?

Nope… quite obedient to the Master he asked:

‘…is there anything to prevent my being baptised?’ (Acts 8:36b)

Will you lose Salvation if you reject Jesus Commandment about Baptism… I can’t really say; but here’s Christ take on man’s false sense of security:

21 'It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers! 24 ‘Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock. 25 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and hurled themselves against that house, and it did not fall: it was founded on rock. 26 But everyone who listens to these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and struck that house, and it fell; and what a fall it had!’ (St. Matthew 7:21-27)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I joined the Catholic Church this Easter and one thing I learned on my journey that I hadn’t really thought about as a Protestant was this:

Baptism saves!

And not only that but in Acts after some were baptized they hadn’t had the spirit fall upon them so the disciples laid hands on them and they experienced CONFIRMATION!

The Catholic Church in the Nicene Creed says we believe in ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I was baptized on Palm Sunday 1969 at the age of 9–I remember my father who was a Methodist minister teaching me what Baptism was all about and telling me that I should ask the Lord to comce into my heart when he baptized me.

I did and still remember how close I felt to God that day.

I believe I also went through some kind of Confirmation with the Methodist church–course it wasn’t valid becaus my father didn’t have valid orders.

Priests and bishops in the Catholic Church do have valid Sacremental orders.

Bishop Robert Baker at St. Paul’s Cathedral in Birmingham, Alabama on Easter Vigil laid hands on me and annoited me with chrism and I was CONFIRMED in the Catholic Church!

That night was the greatest night in my life–being accepted into the Catholic Church–receiving the holy Spirit and Confirmation so I could be a soldier for Christ–and then being able to receive our Lord Jesus Christ–Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the eucharist!

Being in the Catholic Church is the greateast thing that has eve happened to me.

That night at Easter Vigil one adult lady who had never been baptized was baptized!

What a night! Souls going from death into life!

Thanks to everyone here at this forum who were part of the people I learned the Catholic faith over the years!

Baptism saves!!!

 

[PJM]

=Jerry-Jet;8048075]I joined the Catholic Church this Easter and one thing I learned on my journey that I hadn’t really thought about as a Protestant was this:

Baptism saves!

And not only that but in Acts after some were baptized they hadn’t had the spirit fall upon them so the disciples laid hands on them and they experienced CONFIRMATION!

The Catholic Church in the Nicene Creed says we believe in ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I was baptized on Palm Sunday 1969 at the age of 9–I remember my father who was a Methodist minister teaching me what Baptism was all about and telling me that I should ask the Lord to comce into my heart when he baptized me.

I did and still remember how close I felt to God that day.

I believe I also went through some kind of Confirmation with the Methodist church–course it wasn’t valid becaus my father didn’t have valid orders.

Priests and bishops in the Catholic Church do have valid Sacremental orders.

Bishop Robert Baker at St. Paul’s Cathedral in Birmingham, Alabama on Easter Vigil laid hands on me and annoited me with chrism and I was CONFIRMED in the Catholic Church!

That night was the greatest night in my life–being accepted into the Catholic Church–receiving the holy Spirit and Confirmation so I could be a soldier for Christ–and then being able to receive our Lord Jesus Christ–Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the eucharist!

Being in the Catholic Church is the greateast thing that has eve happened to me.

That night at Easter Vigil one adult lady who had never been baptized was baptized!

What a night! Souls going from death into life!

Thanks to everyone here at this forum who were part of the people I learned the Catholic faith over the years!

Baptism saves!!!

Wecome HOME Jerry!

AMEN to your trestimony!

Be careful though to not misunderstand the effects of Baptsim are SALVATION, but ONLY until one sins again. That is why Christ instituted the Sacrament of Confession in JOHN 20:19-23.

God Bless you!

Pat

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What you said is absolutely true. Die in a state of mortal sin and you go to Hell–die in a state of grace and you go to Heaven.

Confession and the Eucharist are great sacraments that can restore us to God(Confession)–and keep us away from mortal sin(Eucharist).

If you want to make it to Heaven PRAY and ask the saints and Our Blessed Lady for help!

Jesus is HONORED when we ask His saints for help!

 

[PJM]

=Jerry-Jet;8052753]What you said is absolutely true. Die in a state of mortal sin and you go to Hell–die in a state of grace and you go to Heaven.

Confession and the Eucharist are great sacraments that can restore us to God(Confession)–and keep us away from mortal sin(Eucharist).

If you want to make it to Heaven PRAY and ask the saints and Our Blessed Lady for help!

Jesus is HONORED when we ask His saints for help!

Congradulate your Pastor and RCIA Team on doing such a thourgh job in preparing you to practice OUR FAITH! WELL DONE!

Pat

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I agree with this post by NotWorthy on a different thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7839968&postcount=4

In regards to your question, I think paragraph 1253 & 4 best describes how the Church teaches Infant Baptism.

Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.