Congregation Size needed for a new FSSP Apostolate

[Mrs_Sally]

The bishop currently is not aware that he has three diocesan priests wanting to learn the TLM. The Latin Mass Community doesn’t want to support these priests, and do not want to bring it to the bishop’s attention that these priests are interested in learning. The bishop fully supports the TLM and the community, and could grant them permission and the funds to attend the FSSP’s TLM workshops in Nebraska. They’d be home in time for Sunday Mass, though because these are new young priests, they aren’t alone in their parishes, so there is still a priest to offer Mass on Sunday.

What this boils down to is the Latin Mass Community’s attitude towards diocesan priests.

Who knows, maybe one day the FSSP will also offer a workshop in traditional spirituality and sermons to further assist diocesan priests.

It is the priests’ responsibility to tell their bishop what they are willing to do or what they are interested in learning. If a priest was interested in learning more about spiritual direction or about canon law, he wouldn’t wait for a lay person to tell the bishop that. Why would these priests wait for the laity to tell the bishop about be interested in saying the EF?

I have a feeling the bishop knows more about what is going on than the laity think he does.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I have attended a diocesan Latin Mass for more than 10 years, with a brief sojourn at SSPX.

I too wish very much that we could have a FSSP priest say the Latin Mass in my city.

I have felt, with good reason, that the diocese is actually quite hostile toward the Latin Mass, and there are many things that go on there which have forced me to conclude that there is an organized effort at sabotage.

I won’t go into detail about this, but I easily could. I just probably would not be believed. My family, who has lived through this, agrees.

I would be interested to know how many other diocesan Latin Mass attendees have experieced the same thing where they live.

This is useless speculation that just fosters division. You have had the EF available in your diocese for 10 years, what ever hostilities you have felt (and I don’t doubt that), they haven’t been able to sabotage the EF Mass yet. I doubt that now with increasing support inthe heirarchy they will be able to. Rest easy and be thankful.

 

[Brendan]

What this boils down to is the Latin Mass Community’s attitude towards diocesan priests.

:

That really stinks, I know of 4 parishes in the Metro Detroit area that offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form. All the Masses are run by diocesan priests.

Take a look at this one from last Sunday.
te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/10/photos-solemn-high-pontifical-mass-with.html

It was a Solemn Pontifical High Mass celebrated by Bishop Sample of Marquette, MI.

All the assisting clergy are diocesan, with the exception of the Master of Ceremonies, who is from the Society of St. John Cantus. He provided the necessary instruction on the specific rubrics unique to a Pontifical High Mass.

 

[Denise1957]

What this boils down to is the Latin Mass Community’s attitude towards diocesan priests.

So would I be correct in thinking that this thread is really about the LMC’s attitude toward diocesan priests, rather than a question about a congregation size needed for an FSSP apostolate?

 

[Chatter163]

So would I be correct in thinking that this thread is really about the LMC’s attitude toward diocesan priests, rather than a question about a congregation size needed for an FSSP apostolate?

Skip that. As another member rightly pointed out:

This is useless speculation that just fosters division.

 

[Denise1957]

Skip that. As another member rightly pointed out:

Thank you, I’m sure your comment is well-intended, but what the other member was pointing out does not have anything to do with my question.

While I’m sorry to read the situation where this particular LMC would prefer the FSSP over diocesan priests, we are only getting one side of the story. There’s always more than meets the eye in any situation. And if this is what the person in the OP is really upset about, then it’s best to just state it up front, IMO. That’s all I’ll say about it. Carry on.

 

[petiteguignol]

I think this has more to do with the Latin Mass Communities’ perception that the attitude of the diosesan priests and non-diosesan priests who are assigned to saying the Latin Mass may not be offering the Mass in the proper spirit. There is very good reason for believing this in my community. I wish there was an FSSP because I don’t think this would be an issue with them.

 

[petiteguignol]

In addition to the above, it seems like in my community, there are people there every week whose serve the function of being agitators/distractions.

Running up and down the aisles, loudly singing off key, jumping up and down (literally),
children hurling themselves over the Communion rail, horribly behaved children never being disiplined, people yelling things out, screaming babies, coming in late, saying the Rosary before Mass in a very disrespectful way, the Church is FREEZING until the heat is turned on in around January, boiling hot in Summer with no windows open. Dead, rotting animals being placed next to your car during Mass, large insects put on the window of your car.

At one point the priest would change the words of the Gospel, or leave out the most important part in order to change the meaning of the Gospel. He would give sermons which were doctrinally in error which he palagerized from Protestant websites. He once gave a sermon extolling the religious fervor of George Washington, while repeating that “he was a Mason,” several times. He takes a long time and is quite reverent when saying the beginning parts of the Mass but rushes through the Canon of the Mass so fast, I can’t read fast enough to keep up with him. This is a priest who used to say a 15 minute English Mass every Sunday in another part of the city.

Maybe you get the idea.

I actually attended a Latin Mass at a different Church in the city and it was WORSE if that could be possible.

I do think there is a conserted effort at sabotage, but I’m not sure who is behind it all.

 

[petiteguignol]

In addition to the above, it seems like in my community, there are people there every week whose serve the function of being agitators/distractions.

Running up and down the aisles, loudly singing off key, jumping up and down (literally),
children hurling themselves over the Communion rail, horribly behaved children never being disiplined, people yelling things out, screaming babies, coming in late, saying the Rosary before Mass in a very disrespectful way, the Church is FREEZING until the heat is turned on in around January, boiling hot in Summer with no windows open. Dead, rotting animals being placed next to your car during Mass, large insects put on the window of your car.

At one point the priest would change the words of the Gospel, or leave out the most important part in order to change the meaning of the Gospel. He would give sermons which were doctrinally in error which he palagerized from Protestant websites. He once gave a sermon extolling the religious fervor of George Washington, while repeating that “he was a Mason, several times.” He takes a long time and is quite reverent when saying the beginning parts of the Mass but rushes through the Canon of the Mass so fast, I can’t read fast enough to keep up with him. This is a priest who used to say a 15 minute English Mass every Sunday in another part of the city.

Maybe you get the idea.

I actually attended a Latin Mass at a different Church in the city and it was WORSE if that could be possible.

I do think there is a conserted effort at sabotage, but I’m not sure who is behind it all.

Just to add one more thing. There is now a new priest saying the Latin Mass. I’ve been to his mass maybe three times and two of the times he attempted to give a homily on grace.

BOTH TIMES he said things which were incorrect, and pretty obviously so. In other words, this priest who grew up and went to school BEFORE Vatican II and should know better, doesn’t even know what actual grace is, or how you get Sanctifying grace. I mean, could that possibly be real, or is it just more agit-prop from the diocese? Why would you choose to give a sermon two times about a subject that YOU DON’T KNOW. How could a priest not know these things?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think this has more to do with the Latin Mass Communities’ perception that the attitude of the diosesan priests and non-diosesan priests who are assigned to saying the Latin Mass may not be offering the Mass in the proper spirit. There is very good reason for believing this in my community. I wish there was an FSSP because I don’t think this would be an issue with them.

Proper spirit?

How can one judge the “proper spirit” within another?

There is nothing about a “proper spirit” that can affect the Mass as long as it is done as it should be.

That should be the focus. Is the priest celebrating the Mass (either EF or OF) correctly, if so then there is nothing wrong and no right to complain.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Disruptive children, poor singing, and mediocre homilies are to be found at every Mass and have been for 2000 years. I don’t think any of those things are signs of people wanting to run the EF out of town. Bad HVAC systems are also not a sign of conspiracy, even large insects aren’t.

 

[petiteguignol]

Proper spirit?

How can one judge the “proper spirit” within another?

There is nothing about a “proper spirit” that can affect the Mass as long as it is done as it should be.

That should be the focus. Is the priest celebrating the Mass (either EF or OF) correctly, if so then there is nothing wrong and no right to complain.

Maybe you didn’t read my entire post.

I think you should.

If a priest is openly and regularly saying things which are not in keeping with the teaching of the Church during the homily, things which can be traced to Protestant authors,
If the priest is whipping through the silent parts of the mass at a speed you can not keep up with,
If a priest is regularly misreading the Gospel and Epistle,
If a priest is openly extolling the virtues of enemies of the Faith,
If a priest makes crazy claims (the Homily about George Washington “has an Imprimatur from four Franciscans”),
If the priest has a prior reputation for saying irreligious 15 minute Sunday OF masses,
If the priest does not seem to know even basic elements of the Faith,

AND IN ADDITION TO THIS:

If the priest refuses to put on ANY the heat in the Winter so that the Chruch is bone chillingly cold, or intentionally turns off the air conditioning (which had been running all day in an empty church) right before the start of Mass, when it is 93 degrees outside,

PLUS ALL OF THE OTHER CRAZY THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON WHICH I MENTIONED ABOVE,

I think there may be a reason to suspect that SOMEONE is trying to sabotage the Latin Mass where I live.

Let’s just take ONE of the above realities:

How does a priest who regularly says a 15 minute OF Mass for years make the necessary attitude adjustment to start saying a reverent and sincere EF Mass? I personally don’t believe it is possible. I would like to believe that because I have to, I have little other choice.
But if we had a Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter group here, I wouldn’t worry about it so much.

I know I never worried about it for a second when I was attending SSPX, although there were clearly other issues involved with that.

 

[petiteguignol]

Disruptive children, poor singing, and mediocre homilies are to be found at every Mass and have been for 2000 years. I don’t think any of those things are signs of people wanting to run the EF out of town. Bad HVAC systems are also not a sign of conspiracy, even large insects aren’t.

Perhaps you didn’t read what I said about the homilies. They weren’t mediocre, they were heretical and/or provocatively inappropriate ie. extolling the virtues of Masons as such .

The level of disruption is definitely not in keeping with “every Mass.”

The “poor singing” is ONE woman who is not really supposed to be singing with the Gregorian Chanting choir. No one else is singing. She has a horrible voice seems to be singing with the sole intention to distract.

I’m not really sure what an HVAC system is.

The priest DOES NOT TURN THE HEAT ON IN THE WINTER. It’s not a bad system. It is NO HEAT.

At another Latin Mass in a nearby Church, the priest turned the air conditioner OFF right before Mass started, although it had been running in an empty church all day, and it was 93 degrees outside.

I wouldn’t mention the insect if the dead, rotting cat had not been placed right by my car a couple of weeks before.

Does that constitute a conspiricy?

How about the woman who would take the diaper off of her year old child and lay her on a table in the vestibule so that her privates were clearly in evidence for every person who walked into the church. She was making no effort to change her diaper. She would keep her like this for many, many minutes. She did this for several weeks in a row. I finally said something to her and reported her to the pastor. I never saw her again.

There was one family with may children who would sit in the front and stroll up and down the aisles from the front to the back of the Church all through mass. My husband finally said something to the father and they stopped going right after that. This went on literally for years.

You failed to mention several of my other points.

The woman who carried piles of religious articles and would spread them all out and play with them throughout the mass.

The man who jumped up and down.

The woman whose unbelievably disturbed children disrupted constantly while she did nothing. They always brought the little darlings up to Communion so they could try to climb over or through the Communion rail. The parents did nothing.

One woman let her small child run through the Church and up to the front during the Consecration.

One man would always be strolling around or making a commotion somewhere during the Consecration.

A man sat behind my son and was cursing outloud throughout the mass.

I really could go on and on…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I am truly sorry for your situation. However, there is nothing any of us can do about it and posting extensive details about your parish isn’t making things better and could be considered a violation of forum rules. I recommend you find another topic to discuss.

I will be praying for the situation in your parish and the many troubled individuals who attend Mass there.

 

[petiteguignol]

I plan to.

But, there was a definite trend in the comments, which is still easily referenced, to call those who would like to have a Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter nearby “spoiled children,” and indicate that they were darned lucky to have anything and they better shut up about it.

I just felt like it was important to provide an alternate viewpoint from someone who has actually suffered for a long time in order to attend a Latin Mass, and will continue to do so.

I hardly think the people who have attended the EF of the Mass provided in my diocese could ever qualify as spoiled children after what we’ve been through.

I wonder if it is the sameall across the country.

I assume that it is.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But, there was a definite trend in the comments, which is still easily referenced, to call those who would like to have a Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter nearby “spoiled children,” and indicate that they were darned lucky to have anything and they better shut up about it.

Sorry but they are acting as “spoiled children” when there are priests present with an interest in celebrating the EF but this community does not want that. They want what they want regardless of what is possible.

 

[TrueLight]

I have attended a diocesan Latin Mass for more than 10 years, with a brief sojourn at SSPX.

I too wish very much that we could have a FSSP priest say the Latin Mass in my city.

I have felt, with good reason, that the diocese is actually quite hostile toward the Latin Mass, and there are many things that go on there which have forced me to conclude that there is an organized effort at sabotage.

I won’t go into detail about this, but I easily could. I just probably would not be believed. My family, who has lived through this, agrees.

I would be interested to know how many other diocesan Latin Mass attendees have experieced the same thing where they live.

All the things you mentioned in this thread can occur in a parish that is not hostile to the EF. Are they more reverent in the OF?

It’s hard for anyone here to say because we are not there. I know that it is quite possible to sabotage the EF especially if one is being forced to celebrate it.

I’m blessed because my diocesan EF is top-notch. So it is possible to have a reverently celebrated diocesan traditional Latin Mass.

I will keep you and your parish in prayer.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I know that it is quite possible to sabotage the EF especially if one is being forced to celebrate it.

WHOA NELLY!!!

I could be mistaken, but I do not believe that any priest can be forced to celebrate the EF,
That said, for me, it calls into question many of the claims made by petiteguignol.
I don’t go in for “conspiracy theories”, so I really can’t figure out why a priest who obviously didn’t want to celebrate the EF would do so just to sabotage it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

WHOA NELLY!!!

I could be mistaken, but I do not believe that any priest can be forced to celebrate the EF,
That said, for me, it calls into question many of the claims made by petiteguignol.
I don’t go in for “conspiracy theories”, so I really can’t figure out why a priest who obviously didn’t want to celebrate the EF would do so just to sabotage it.

I think you are on target here.

You are also correct, no priest can be forced to celebrate the EF.

 

[petiteguignol]

Sorry but they are acting as “spoiled children” when there are priests present with an interest in celebrating the EF but this community does not want that. They want what they want regardless of what is possible.

I’m sorry, I may be missing something when you say, “they want what they want,” what are you talking about? The preference for FSSP over a diocesan priest (a diocesan priest who really WANTS to offer the EF), for some nebulous reason which is just some prima donna/diva acting out with the sole intention of giving the Bishop problems because they’re demanding and unreasonable brats?

Yes. If what you are describing is what we were actually discussing, then you would be completely correct.

Maybe I failed to communicate WHY someone might prefer FSSP over a diocesan priest based on my own personal experience?

My reasons, as described, are totally valid by my own standards, and I believe by the standards of any reasonable person.

If my experience is in any way typical, which we will never know as I seem to be the only person attending a diocesan Latin Mass with regularity on this thread or maybe on this site or maybe in the world, it is very understandable why people would prefer a Traditional group to a diosesan priest.