A
anzie
Guest
I am wondering if there is a rule that the whole congregation should stand during communion until the last person has received?
thanks
thanks
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
The GIRM gives the local Bishop the authority to determine that the Faithful will remain standing after the Lamb of God while Holy Communion is being distributed. Until they return to their seats after receiving, then each individual may sit or kneel, until the end of the period of silence after Communion is over.I am wondering if there is a rule that the whole congregation should stand during communion until the last person has received?
thanks
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
No, the GIRM says a person may kneel “while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” There is not sacred silence while the Communion hymn is being sung. Nor while the priest is saying “The body of Christ”. So the period of sacred silence is not until after everyone has received Communion.The GIRM states a person may kneel after receiving. He cannot be forced to stand.
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
"43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below. They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed."
Also from the GIRM:
“86. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.”
For a Stational Mass of the Diocesan bishop the option of kneeling or standing is not given. It has in the official liturgical book, Ceremonial of Bishops:
“166 When the bishop returns to the chair after the communion, he puts on the skullcap and, if need be, washes his hands. All are seated and a period of prayerful silence may follow, or a song of praise or a psalm may be sung.”
(Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60).
If the bishops of a country do not like the instructions on posture in the GIRM they can try to change them by the proper process (a Conference of Bishops vote on the Roman Missal plus Vatican recogntio). In the USA they did not try to do this.
Instead, on this issue, there has been a confusing process of Cardinal George writing to Cardinal Arinze and getting a reply. These are at adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html .
My view is that the reply fails to respect what is in the liturgical books.
I have written more about this at romanrite.com/j210703.html . Some of the USA bishops discussing posture after Communion is at romanrite.com/j240802.html .
W
Walking_Home
Guest
No, the GIRM says a person may kneel “while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” There is not sacred silence while the Communion hymn is being sung. Nor while the priest is saying “The body of Christ”. So the period of sacred silence is not until after everyone has received Communion.
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
"43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below. They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed."
Also from the GIRM:
“86. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.”
For a Stational Mass of the Diocesan bishop the option of kneeling or standing is not given. It has in the official liturgical book, Ceremonial of Bishops:
“166 When the bishop returns to the chair after the communion, he puts on the skullcap and, if need be, washes his hands. All are seated and a period of prayerful silence may follow, or a song of praise or a psalm may be sung.”
(Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60).
If the bishops of a country do not like the instructions on posture in the GIRM they can try to change them by the proper process (a Conference of Bishops vote on the Roman Missal plus Vatican recogntio). In the USA they did not try to do this.
Instead, on this issue, there has been a confusing process of Cardinal George writing to Cardinal Arinze and getting a reply. These are at adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html .
My view is that the reply fails to respect what is the liturgical books.
I have written more about this at romanrite.com/j210703.html . Some of the USA bishops discussing of the issue is at romanrite.com/j240802.html .
Are you then saying—you do not respect the authority of the Pope and the Roman Curia who speak in his name and with his authority.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
There is papal approval and a clear process for a producing a liturgical book, like the Ceremonial of Bishops and Roman Missal. I respect this.
Are you then saying—you do not respect the authority of the Pope and the Roman Curia who speak in his name and with his authority.
The process of issuing contrary instructions to these liturgical books by the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments concerns me.
There are indications that others are also concerned by this approach. Look at the wording of Cardinal Arinze in a letter of 12 October 2006:
"I have put the whole matter before the Holy Father in an audience which he granted me on 9 June 2006, and received instructions to reply as follows: …
“… 4. Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. It does not seem feasible, therefore, for the Congregation to grant the requested indult from this directive in the general law of the Latin Church. …”
(The full letter is at jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/cdw_on_purifica.html ).
In short, liturgical books have a special status as legislation and it is now clear that the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments does not have the authority to change what is in them.
P
palmas85
Guest
I think the confusion is simply this. The rules say shall sit or kneel during the period of silence after communion is distributed. It also says a common posture during communion shows unity. Yet it does not define what the common posture should be nor does it indicate whether communion is to be seen as individual or communal in nature…No, the GIRM says a person may kneel “while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” There is not sacred silence while the Communion hymn is being sung. Nor while the priest is saying “The body of Christ”. So the period of sacred silence is not until after everyone has received Communion.
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
"43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below. They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed."
Also from the GIRM:
“86. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.”
For a Stational Mass of the Diocesan bishop the option of kneeling or standing is not given. It has in the official liturgical book, Ceremonial of Bishops:
“166 When the bishop returns to the chair after the communion, he puts on the skullcap and, if need be, washes his hands. All are seated and a period of prayerful silence may follow, or a song of praise or a psalm may be sung.”
(Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60).
If the bishops of a country do not like the instructions on posture in the GIRM they can try to change them by the proper process (a Conference of Bishops vote on the Roman Missal plus Vatican recogntio). In the USA they did not try to do this.
Instead, on this issue, there has been a confusing process of Cardinal George writing to Cardinal Arinze and getting a reply. These are at adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html .
My view is that the reply fails to respect what is in the liturgical books.
I have written more about this at romanrite.com/j210703.html . Some of the USA bishops discussing posture after Communion is at romanrite.com/j240802.html .
Historically I think most people were of the assumption that after** they** received Holy Communion, they should kneel as they had finished with Communion and were in **their **time of silence and or contemplation.
The whole idea of having everyone stand is an attempt to re-enforce the community aspect of the Mass with communion ending for all being the reference point for kneeling or sitting instead of a personal end of communion.
Does that make any sense?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
There is papal approval and a clear process for a producing a liturgical book, like the Ceremonial of Bishops and Roman Missal. I respect this.
The process of issuing contrary instructions to these liturgical books by the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments concerns me.
There are indications that others are also concerned by this approach. Look at the wording of Cardinal Arinze in a letter of 12 October 2006:
"I have put the whole matter before the Holy Father in an audience which he granted me on 9 June 2006, and received instructions to reply as follows: …
“… 4. Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. It does not seem feasible, therefore, for the Congregation to grant the requested indult from this directive in the general law of the Latin Church. …”
(The full letter is at jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/cdw_on_purifica.html ).
In short, liturgical books have a special status as legislation and it is now clear that the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments does not have the authority to change what is in them.
I don’t see how you can derived from the letter that the CDW cannot issue clarifications to the GIRM. To begin with–the CDW does not function outside the jurisdiction of the Pope. The CDW function–is in conjunction with the Pope—so making the Pope aware of matters that arise with the conference of bishops falls within their function.
This does not deny that bishops who want to get their own way–will appeal to the Pope directly.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III
[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.
[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
M
mdgspencer
Guest
I go to church in another diocese. A year ago the bishop ordered the prests to tell the people to stand then. I know of one priest in that diocese who disliked it vocally. However, the bishop is enforcing this mandate sternly. However, I know that this is contrary to the GIRM and the people have the right to take whatever posture they desire after going to communion. I myself kneel then as I prefer and no one has bothered me for it.
M
MaryAgnes
Guest
It only makes sense if you take the position that Communion is private in nature–which it is not. The very name “communion” indicates a communal nature.I think the confusion is simply this. The rules say shall sit or kneel during the period of silence after communion is distributed. It also says a common posture during communion shows unity. Yet it does not define what the common posture should be nor does it indicate whether communion is to be seen as individual or communal in nature…
Historically I think most people were of the assumption that after** they** received Holy Communion, they should kneel as they had finished with Communion and were in **their **time of silence and or contemplation.
The whole idea of having everyone stand is an attempt to re-enforce the community aspect of the Mass with communion ending for all being the reference point for kneeling or sitting instead of a personal end of communion.
Does that make any sense?
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Horazontal vs Vertical.It only makes sense if you take the position that Communion is private in nature–which it is not. The very name “communion” indicates a communal nature.
Communion = Our individual reception and union with Christ in the Sacrament. It is through this union with and in Christ that we are in union with al other baptized Christians. We are not in union with each other because we receive Communion together. This is the false understanding of those who advocate “open Communion”.
M
MaryAgnes
Guest
It is through this union with and in Christ that we are in union with all other baptized Christians.
= Communion
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Br. Rich SFO
It is through this union with and in Christ that we are in union with all other baptized Christians.
= Communion
With and in Christ first.
P
palmas85
Guest
It means that we come together to receive in a group,setting, **but ** we receive personally as individuals. It does not mean that no one has received fully until everyone has received That is taking the communal aspect to a ridiculous degree. That thinking reminds me of Boot Camp where we all lined up to eat, received our food went to our table and stood until everyone was there We then sat and ate. All that practice really did was cut down on the time we had to eat, because they ran the clock from the time the first person entered not from the time the last person got his food, and we only had a short period of time to eat. It was supposed to foster a team feeling.It only makes sense if you take the position that Communion is private in nature–which it is not. The very name “communion” indicates a communal nature.
It didn’t. And it doesn’t in the setting of the Mass either. In reality it is just another method of controlling your individual actions.
B
Brendan
Guest
Cardinal George, on behalf of the USCCB, submitted a dubium about this very issue.It only makes sense if you take the position that Communion is private in nature–which it is not. The very name “communion” indicates a communal nature.
The Vatican responded.
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):
adoremus.org/Kneeling-CDW-response03.htmlResponsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
Any decree on posture after individual reception of Holy Communion should not be considered so strict as to make those who wish to kneel or sit not feel free to do so.
B
Brendan
Guest
The head of the CDWDS has the authority to issue an authentic interperetion of what is in the books.In short, liturgical books have a special status as legislation and it is now clear that the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments does not have the authority to change what is in them.
You will note the top part, that Cardinal George submitted this dubium to the CDWDS.
on May 26, 2003, concerning the long-standing practices of individuals kneeling upon returning to their places after having received Holy Communion. Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments responded on June 5, 2003, (Prot.n. 855/03/L).Cardinal Francis George, of Chicago, chairman of the Bishops’ Committee of the Liturgy, submitted a dubium (question) to the Congregration for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Obviously, Cardinal George felt that this was the correct dicasterty to rule on the matter. Is it your opinion that Cardinal George erred in the matter?
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