If God knows what the man will do then the man wants to do it because God knows he wants to do it. The man cannot want otherwise and so is a puppet, wanting whatever God knows he will want.
There is no argument. It’s an assertion that is entirely parasitic on an association being portrayed as a cause in order to assert, falsely, that it is a cause.
Simple fallacy of affirming the consequent.
If Man P wills X, then God knows (or foreknows) it (i.e., that Man P wills X).
I would just change the last sentence to, “The man would not want otherwise because he’s already done it, in a certain kind of view.” I know it is just semantics but when you write “cannot” or “compelled” or an idea which implies an exterior obligation on the man or force on the man I think the theory goes wrong. I think the error, as I see it, arises because there is an underlying idea that the man could somehow possess from one to an infinite number of alternate wills but is locked in to the will that fits with God’s knowledge. This in turn, I think, arises from the idea that their are an infinite number of possible futures. The truth, as I understand it, is that the man only possesses one will and it doesn’t fit with God’s knowledge, but rather it causes God’s knowledge. In my view, His knowledge isn’t a design which applies force upon us to act in accordance with it, but rather I would describe him as the Supreme Witness. What he has seen is the man’s own choices. In order for this to be realistic, we have to understand that the man is as fully present in his future as he is in any point in his life. If God saw only a possible future then the man would indeed be a puppet to it, if God declared “This possible future must transpire.”
A common mistake made by Calvinists or materialists!Looking retrospectively at “the fall” it seems that it was a set up, but that is only because of the choice made by Eve and Adam that determined the outcome in one direction. If they had chosen differently, the results would have been radically different. This is another example of retrospective determinism. It happened therefore it had to happen.
Regardless of the exit plan, he knew they would fail before he created them. That can’t be dismissed. It must have been his plan that they fail because he knew before he created them or he didn’t know what was going to happen. It was his choice to create them. Any foreseeable consequences are firmly on his shoulders. If I know striking a match will burn down a house am I not respomsible if I strike the match?Looking retrospectively at “the fall” it seems that it was a set up, but that is only because of the choice made by Eve and Adam that determined the outcome in one direction. If they had chosen differently, the results would have been radically different. This is another example of retrospective determinism. It happened therefore it had to happen.
As to “stacking the deck,” it was ONE tree in an entire garden of goodies. The odds would seem to have been stacked the other way.
Adam and Eve, just keep your noses clean, but no…
The “easy” way mindset that leads to addictions of all kinds is founded on the kind of thinking that talks itself into, “What’s the use?” and then uses that capitulation to reinforce its poor choices as if things couldn’t have been otherwise. From the point of view of an addicted mind (one quite amenable to retrospective determinism,) it appears that it couldn’t have been otherwise; so why try?
The pit is just too deep to escape from. Too bad that wasn’t considered before we started digging it. The Good News is that God himself has put himself into the pit as our brother.
The inordinate strength of the determinism mindset is, to me, proof that the “Fall” was an historical event precisely because our “go to” response is to deflect responsibility onto any excuse we can concoct.
It’s a psychological ego trick to salve over responsibility that we humans have perfected because it is far easier to point the finger (had to be, God allowed it, too hard, etc.) than admit where the problem really lies.
The other aspect that you haven’t mentioned is that God has promised his Kingdom and the power (grace) to achieve it, which would mean we have omnipotence stacked on the side of making all kinds empowered “good” free will choices.
No, let’s pass up on that promise for the sake of hiding behind our weaknesses that compel us to make bad choices because doing otherwise involves the challenge to overcome the temptation to fail.
That’s where this falls apart for me.
Again, you are confusing “see” in an eternal sense with foresee. From God’s eternal perspective it’s not a “done deal,” it’s a current event - a going concern. He hasn’t given up on humanity.
You have hot the nail on the head.
I envy your privileged insight into the nature of reality.
Regardless, even if every moment is “now” he is the author of them all. If he doesn’t create there isn’t any “nows.” If all nows exist at once they were created at once.
No he hasn’t.
He knows how we will end up, but it is not decided yet. He, after all, is the judge. And a judge judges. It is not something that happens automatically. It is a conversation.
Perhaps it’s more like allowing a match to be struck by an irresponsible someone for the purpose of demonstrating responsibility, but with the knowledge that the resulting inferno will serve as a refining fire to separate what has enduring value from what does not.
Is your point that since God is “ultimately responsible”, that is why God became One of us to pay the price of ALL of us on the cross, so that ALL of us are, ultimately, with God, even those that take a detour or so?
Actually, it is a “done deal”, for us “it’s a current event”.
If the fall was foreseen, then it was intended. If it was intended it is only an illusion of choice. It is a plot devise to move on to the next thing. It may look like it is unfolding to us and makes the story interesting and filled with drama. To some one(s) that every moment is now, it has no suspense, it is all now, the beginning and the end. To say anything unfolds for god means that you either have to abandon his eternal nature (outside of time) or his omniscient nature. Or you are saying god can hide things from himself, aka a rock so big he can’t lift it.
The fact that the unknowns are from our perspective does not entail that we do not decide those unknowns even if God does know them. He knows them BECAUSE we decide them and will have decided them, but they are still ours to decide in time. Logic does not require chronology.
Non sequitur.