Connection between free will and a known future?

[ShynnSup]

He’s perfect and all powerful how could things other the way he wanted them. We all serve just not in the way we expect. That’s what keeps it interesting. Even Satan who says “I will not serve” does, just not in the way he expected. Want to hear God laugh? Tell him your plans.

Man, cant you see your theory fails with the previously stated arguments? Let me state them again:

This is not the best possible world, the best possible world will come once Satan is defeated, and the world lives with not evil, in the love of God.

You are saying that some people are actually predestined to go to hell,

The whole concept of free will includes not doing what God wants.

If it just fails with one of these, its done, give it up. It fails with all of them.

---

Let me add some more.

God clearly does not want ANYBODY to go to hell. But people do go to hell.
“He’s perfect and all powerful how could things other the way he wanted them”

Again, Gods wants are not relevant.

You know each time we sin we hurt God right? You think he is a masochist? Clearly God would like no one to sin. But everybody sins. Things are not going the way God wants them to go.

Im going to sin: “God wanted it that way, if not he would not ve created me, that is his plan after all”

Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin

(James 1:13)
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

---

Now if whats troubling you is: “Why did God create Satan if he knew he would turn evil?”

God has reasons about which we know nothing.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Now if whats troubling you is: “Why did God create Satan if he knew he would turn evil?”

God has reasons about which we know nothing.

I’m not troubled by it.

This is the best world it can be at this moment. God created the whole of creation, every moment, every person in one act of creation. The story has been written, we’re just living in it. We experience the passage of time because we are in the story. He’s not “in time.”

Even the church won’t speculate who’s in hell. Since we all serve, maybe it’s no one. You don’t know the mind of god, so who’ to know what he wants. We can speculate he wanted a Satan or he wouldn’t have made a Satan. Satan serves his purpose. If he hadn’t tempted we’d all be in the garden. No incarnation.

You seem to think we have some sort of power to make it all go wrong. We know the end of the story, how can it go wrong?

 

[ShynnSup]

I’m not troubled by it.

This is the best world it can be at this moment. God created the whole of creation, every moment, every person in one act of creation. The story has been written, we’re just living in it. We experience the passage of time because we are in the story. He’s not “in time.”

Even the church won’t speculate who’s in hell. Since we all serve, maybe it’s no one. You don’t know the mind of god, so who’ to know what he wants. We can speculate he wanted a Satan or he wouldn’t have made a Satan. Satan serves his purpose. If he hadn’t tempted we’d all be in the garden. No incarnation.

You seem to think we have some sort of power to make it all go wrong. We know the end of the story, how can it go wrong?

Wrong, we write the story. God just knows it all.

Man, many people are in hell, its a fact.

Let me see if I understand you, lets do an example: God writes the whole story, Incarnation, crucifixion, etc etc

In order for these to happen we need the “agents”
So God creates Satan to cause the fall, to make the incarnation and salvation needed.
Then God proceeds to create evil people that would crucify God in his time.

Is that it? Or I got you wrong?

What about the other premises tho? Its still crystal clear that what God wants its not sin, its not suffering, its not pain, its not people in hell. Or are you actually willing to claim that we dont know if God is a God of love, or of pain?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Wrong, we write the story. God just knows it all.

Man, many people are in hell, its a fact.

Let me see if I understand you, lets do an example: God writes the whole story, Incarnation, crucifixion, etc etc

In order for these to happen we need the “agents”
So God creates Satan to cause the fall, to make the incarnation and salvation needed.
Then God proceeds to create evil people that would crucify God in his time.

Is that it? Or I got you wrong?

What about the other premises tho? Its still crystal clear that what God wants its not sin, its not suffering, its not pain, its not people in hell. Or are you actually willing to claim that we dont know if God is a God of love, or of pain?

It’s not a fact that people are in hell, at least from the Catholic Church’s perspective. They won’t say who’s there.

We all serve. We all play our part. None of our lives go by the script we think it should. We are used as He sees fit. Even “the worst” of us. Someone had to drive the nails.

 

[ShynnSup]

It’s not a fact that people are in hell, at least from the Catholic Church’s perspective. They won’t say who’s there.

We all serve. We all play our part. None of our lives go by the script we think it should. We are used as He sees fit. Even “the worst” of us. Someone had to drive the nails.

Its a fact that people are in hell. The Catholic Church does not say otherwise. It says that only God knows WHO and we should not make assumptions.

Are you really not understanding? Or is it your pride that does not let you lose an argument on the internet? This is not even an argument, its me trying to open your eyes, but satan seems to be closing them.

How can you go with the same over an over, when I marked so many inconsistencies?
I found no other explanation, but that you dont want to understand. That you are closed in your own mind, “I am right” “I am right” “I am right”

If you are, people are actually predestined to go to hell, and so there is no reason to fight against temptation, after all its Gods plan for me to fall and lose against satan.

 

[Peter_Plato]

It’s not a fact that people are in hell, at least from the Catholic Church’s perspective. They won’t say who’s there.

We all serve. We all play our part. None of our lives go by the script we think it should. We are used as He sees fit. Even “the worst” of us. Someone had to drive the nails.

No particular person “had” to drive them, though some took it upon themselves to do so.

Another possibility which seems to fit your overall story and still allows for free will to be compatible with omniscience is that God could “audition” all possible roles by choosing those “players” he knows by inscrutable knowledge of our free will choices which role fits best with our moral character so we are culpable for what we do precisely because his omniscient knowledge places us perfectly within history in the position we would best fit according to our freely willed determinations.

You see it is possible to construct alternatives to your view and still squirrel in free will.

Personally, I don’t buy the alternative story any more than I do your, even more limited, predestination one.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Its a fact that people are in hell. The Catholic Church does not say otherwise. It says that only God knows WHO and we should not make assumptions.

Are you really not understanding? Or is it your pride that does not let you lose an argument on the internet? This is not even an argument, its me trying to open your eyes, but satan seems to be closing them.

How can you go with the same over an over, when I marked so many inconsistencies?
I found no other explanation, but that you dont want to understand. That you are closed in your own mind, “I am right” “I am right” “I am right”

If you are, people are actually predestined to go to hell, and so there is no reason to fight against temptation, after all its Gods plan for me to fall and lose against satan.

If the Church won’t say who’s in hell, who are you to? Just because a person plays a part doesn’t mean they end up in hell. They are serving. I don’t think anyone is predestined. Who goes to hell is God’s decision.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

No particular person “had” to drive them, though some took it upon themselves to do so.

Another possibility which seems to fit your overall story and still allows for free will to be compatible with omniscience is that God could “audition” all possible roles by choosing those “players” he knows by inscrutable knowledge of our free will choices which role fits best with our moral character so we are culpable for what we do precisely because his omniscient knowledge places us perfectly within history in the position we would best fit according to our freely willed determinations.

You see it is possible to construct alternatives to your view and still squirrel in free will.

Personally, I don’t buy the alternative story any more than I do your, even more limited, predestination one.

So Jesus would have crucified himself? It was prophesied.

How does he audition them? He still knows who will perform what role. It’s still foreknowledge from our perspective. They’re born to their roles.

 

[ShynnSup]

If the Church won’t say who’s in hell, who are you to? Just because a person plays a part doesn’t mean they end up in hell. They are serving. I don’t think anyone is predestined. Who goes to hell is God’s decision.

I didnt say who is in hell. The bible says so.

1 Corinthians 6 (King James Version)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And these do not play a role in the story. They go against God, because they want to.

You dont think its predestined? But if thats what your way of thinking suggests, you are contradicting yourself.

If you say, the people that crucified God, had that role, and the bible tells you that these people will not inherit the kingdom of God, then they were predestined to go to hell.

Your theory is flawed, accept it already.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I didnt say who is in hell. The bible says so.

1 Corinthians 6 (King James Version)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And these do not play a role in the story. They go against God, because they want to.

You dont think its predestined? But if thats what your way of thinking suggests, you are contradicting yourself.

If you say, the people that crucified God, had that role, and the bible tells you that these people will not inherit the kingdom of God, then they were predestined to go to hell.

Your theory is flawed, accept it already.

You are misunderstanding me. Just because they have a role to play, doesn’t mean they end up in hell.

Jer 10:23

I know, LORD,
that no one chooses their way,
Nor determines their course
nor directs their own step.

 

[Peter_Plato]

If the Church won’t say who’s in hell, who are you to? Just because a person plays a part doesn’t mean they end up in hell. They are serving. I don’t think anyone is predestined. Who goes to hell is God’s decision.

Neither did Shynnsup say “who” was in hell, so your question, “If the Church won’t say who’s in hell, who are you to?” is uncalled for.

I don’t think the Church’s position is that God “decides” who goes to hell, that determination is made by the person him/herself

 

[ShynnSup]

So Jesus would have crucified himself? It was prophesied.

How does he audition them? He still knows who will perform what role. It’s still foreknowledge from our perspective. They’re born to their roles.

Okay, so now I do comprehend its not your pride, its that you actually are lost and do not understand.

Its fine dear, we are here to help you, glad I found you.

God, in his infinite knowleage, knew the perfect time to be born. Who knows why, only he does know why he had to wait for that exact time.

Galatians 4:4 and 5: “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Romans 9

11 before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, **in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
**
12 not by works but by his call—she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”j

13 As it is written:
“I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”*

14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!l

15 For he says to Moses:
“I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”

16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.

17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”

18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”

20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, “Why have you created me so?”

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?

22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?s

23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,

24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

 

[ShynnSup]

You are misunderstanding me. Just because they have a role to play, doesn’t mean they end up in hell.

Jer 10:23

I know, LORD,
that no one chooses their way,
Nor determines their course
nor directs their own step.

Of course not, but if we take, for example, the people that crucified God, most of these people were, idolaters,unrighteous, etc And God says they are going to hell.

How can I be more clear?

God says: unrighteous will go to hell.
The people that crucified go were unrighteous, because of course, he was crucified innocent.
Thus these people, that according to you are fulfilling a role, are going to hell.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Jeremiah 29:11 (King James Version)

11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

James 4:13-17 (New International Version)

13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Man proposes but God disposes

You right now are confusing things. Thinking that all that you do is product of God, or wanted by God, or controlled by God. Its not.

You are free, God is in final control in the end, yes, but this does not mean that you cant go against Gods will. People go against Gods will every day. Every time you sin. As Jeremiah says, Gods ways are always of good and not of evil, so how can Gods ways drive people to crucify Jesus?

As James says, God does not tempt anybody, God does not produce sin, so how can it be that he is creating people with the role of “sinning” and evil. This little qoute destroys your theory once more, If God is not the author of sin, how can you say that he created Satan? He did not, he created a a wonderful and magnificent angel, that revealed itself, and so sin was created by him.

If God tempts know one, this means, does not drive anybody to commit sinful acts, such as crucifying innocent people, you cant say that God put these man in that specific role, of committing sin.

I would like to write more, but I gotta go, Will make you understand, no matter how long it will take me dude.

God bless you.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Of course not, but if we take, for example, the people that crucified God, most of these people were, idolaters,unrighteous, etc And God says they are going to hell.

.

Christ had to be crucified. It was prophesied that he would be. He needed to die in order to bring us salvation. You are the one judging them and saying they must have gone to hell. I’m not.

 

[ShynnSup]

Christ had to be crucified. It was prophesied that he would be. He needed to die in order to bring us salvation. You are the one judging them and saying they must have gone to hell. I’m not.

What does that has to do with the topic in discussion?

Thats all you can say?

Anyways, I am not saying they should go to hell, I just said that God says that those people will go to hell. Because they are idolaters, unrighteous.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

What does that has to do with the topic in discussion?

Thats all you can say?

Anyways, I am not saying they should go to hell, I just said that God says that those people will go to hell. Because they are idolaters, unrighteous.

I am just saying you have no idea what God will do. That’s for him to decide. If he needs someone to drive the nails, he’ll have them. What he does with them afterwords isn’t determined by our speculation.

 

[tonyrey]

Christ had to be crucified. It was prophesied that he would be. He needed to die in order to bring us salvation. You are the one judging them and saying they must have gone to hell. I’m not.

The prophecies were inspired by the One who** chose** to be crucified - for everyone including those who were responsible for His death.

 

[JamesATyler]

If god knew Lucifer would fall, and created him anyway, he willed it. God saw all of creation and it was very good. Satan serves his purpose in the “good” of creation. Without Satan there is no fall of man, without the fall of man no incarnation, without the incarnation no salvation. Satan serves his perpose.

I understand what you are saying and I see the logic in it. I’m not going to call you illogical. Still, I doubt what you are saying is true even if it is logical. I don’t think that God willed anyone to be evil for any purpose. Christian teaching traditionally teaches that God does not will that anyone do any evil. The difference between believing Christian teaching and believing in your logic is that we Christians believe that God has actually interacted with these people. On the other hand, you are defining what you believe with just your logic and judgement as your guide. The problem with that is if you make a mistake (which we think you are) it’s on you to figure it out. Nobody can sort it out for you, if you are sure you are correct in your logic and judge that since the logic is good, it must be true. Not that we won’t try to sort it out. LOL

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I understand what you are saying and I see the logic in it. I’m not going to call you illogical. Still, I doubt what you are saying is true even if it is logical. I don’t think that God willed anyone to be evil for any purpose. Christian teaching traditionally teaches that God does not will that anyone do any evil. The difference between believing Christian teaching and believing in your logic is that we Christians believe that God has actually interacted with these people. On the other hand, you are defining what you believe with just your logic and judgement as your guide. The problem with that is if you make a mistake (which we think you are) it’s on you to figure it out. Nobody can sort it out for you, if you are sure you are correct in your logic and judge that since the logic is good, it must be true. Not that we won’t try to sort it out. LOL

Lamentations 3

38 Is it not at the word of the Most High that both good and bad take place?