Connection between free will and a known future?

[ShynnSup]

I am just saying you have no idea what God will do. That’s for him to decide. If he needs someone to drive the nails, he’ll have them. What he does with them afterwords isn’t determined by our speculation.

I am not speculating, I am reading the bible.

Anyways, God does not need anyone to “drive the nails”

Let me try to explain this with the example of the people that crucified Jesus our Lord.

God knows everything, and so he only knows why he waited the time that he waited to come to Earth, at that specific date, time, day, age.

I understand your logic that “Without these people, there would be no salvation”

But its not God that knew that this man will become evil and crucify him, so that their purpose it to be evil. Of course we will leave behind the fact that the bible states that God does not create no one evil, and does not create sin, nor no one with a purpose to be evil, because that does not seem to be enough for you to stop thinking this way, although it should.

God, in his absolute knowleage knew, that the free will of these man will drive them into crucifying him. With no previous predestination, or design.

Its tricky to explain, here is an even better explanation.

As well explained in the bible:

Galatians 4:4 and 5: “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

“The fulness of the time”

I doubt that the degree of evil in man at that time will just be the only requirement for the “fulness of the time”. God only knows what he chose that time, but the kind of men of the time has little to do with it. God will probably be crucified at any time, given the work of Satan.

 

[JamesATyler]

Lamentations 3

38 Is it not at the word of the Most High that both good and bad take place?

Interesting read. There is a bunch of questions in the poem. These issues were on his mind as well it seems.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I am not speculating, I am reading the bible.

You are speculating based on what you’ve read. You can’t know who God sends to hell.

 

[ShynnSup]

You are speculating based on what you’ve read. You can’t know who God sends to hell.

If I read that the sinners will go to hell, and its a sin to kill an innocent man, its not that hard to guess that they will go to hell, stop being so retarded and so stubborn.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

If I read that the sinners will go to hell, and its a sin to kill an innocent man, its not that hard to guess that they will go to hell, stop being so retarded and so stubborn.

No, you can’t know. The Church says we can’t know the state of anyones soul who may or may not be in hell.

I don’t appreciate your use of retarded as a derogatory term.

 

[ShynnSup]

No, you can’t know. The Church says we can’t know the state of anyones soul who may or may not be in hell.

I don’t appreciate your use of retarded as a derogatory term.

I dont appreciate your whole theory and what?

You have diverged this conversation to another topic, that has nothing to do with the previous in discussion.

Proved you wrong in numerous ways.

I can only show you the truth not force you to believe it.

The church says many things, but I know for sure that Cain is in hell, for example, and so are the people that crucified God and did not repent, you cant deny that at least one of the thousands that attacked Jesus were idolaters, unrighteous, etc
I cant tell specifically of course, but we can have a very good idea, like saying that the ones that sell their souls to satan are in hell too, all satanists for example, so stop being so childish.

This conversation is over

 

[Peter_Plato]

If I read that the sinners will go to hell, and its a sin to kill an innocent man, its not that hard to guess that they will go to hell, stop being so retarded and so stubborn.

That would be a conclusion “from all appearances,” but Jesus warns against judging solely by appearances. We do not have insight into what may have caused the killer to act as they did, which is a reason we should not judge (as in condemn or pass sentence on) anyone. We can judge the act and take it as true that such an act makes its perpetrator liable to judgement by God and that could, very well, entail hell, but we need to refrain from taking on making that judgement ourselves. That is God’s prerogative, not ours. We need to stay out of the business of determining sentence - our role is more along the lines of co-defendant. Recall:

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. (Matt 5:22)

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I dont appreciate your whole theory and what?

You have diverged this conversation to another topic, that has nothing to do with the previous in discussion.

Proved you wrong in numerous ways.

I can only show you the truth not force you to believe it.

The church says many things, but I know for sure that Cain is in hell, for example, and so are the people that crucified God and did not repent, you cant deny that at least one of the thousands that attacked Jesus were idolaters, unrighteous, etc
I cant tell specifically of course, but we can have a very good idea, like saying that the ones that sell their souls to satan are in hell too, all satanists for example, so stop being so childish.

This conversation is over

I thought you might find this helpful on why people, not only myself, find the use of retarded as a derogatory word offensive.

r-word.org/

Thanks for your time and contribution to the thread.

 

[ShynnSup]

I thought you might find this helpful on why people, not only myself, find the use of retarded as a derogatory word offensive.

r-word.org/

Thanks for your time and contribution to the thread.

Do you know the origin of the word retard?

From latin, Re (back) and Tardus (slow)

And you are pretty slow to comprehend things, at least you made yourself look like that.

And I dont care if someone uses the same word to name a disease ,its not my problem.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Do you know the origin of the word retard?

From latin, Re (back) and Tardus (slow)

And you are pretty slow to comprehend things, at least you made yourself look like that.

And I dont care if someone uses the same word to name a disease ,its not my problem.

Yes, I took latin in school. I just thought you’d might be interested.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You are speculating based on what you’ve read. You can’t know who God sends to hell.

God sends no one to hell.

If one were to wake up in hell, so to speak, they will come to the realization that not only did they put themself there but that they built it themself.

Jesus, God-Incarnate, went to everyone’s hell by His taking of everyone’s sins upon Himself and in doing this “won” the “keys” to the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

As Jesus said, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The prophecies were inspired by the One who** chose** to be crucified - for everyone including those who were responsible for His death.

And who is “responsible for His death”?

All of us, is this not so?

 

[Tom_Baum]

If I read that the sinners will go to hell, and its a sin to kill an innocent man, its not that hard to guess that they will go to hell, stop being so retarded and so stubborn.

If you read that “the sinners will go to hell”, are you saying that we will all go to hell, since we are all sinners?

 

[Tom_Baum]

I dont appreciate your whole theory and what?

You have diverged this conversation to another topic, that has nothing to do with the previous in discussion.

Proved you wrong in numerous ways.

I can only show you the truth not force you to believe it.

The church says many things, but I know for sure that Cain is in hell, for example, and so are the people that crucified God and did not repent, you cant deny that at least one of the thousands that attacked Jesus were idolaters, unrighteous, etc
I cant tell specifically of course, but we can have a very good idea, like saying that the ones that sell their souls to satan are in hell too, all satanists for example, so stop being so childish.

This conversation is over

You might “know for sure that Cain is in hell, for example, and so are the people that crucified God and did not repent” but the Church has never declared anyone for sure to be in hell, can you tell us how you “know” this?

One day people will realize that God’s Victory Is Total, that a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

 

[Tom_Baum]

For those that don’t know it, the Catholic Church, I believe, refers to the fall of man as “O Happy Fault”.

I find it rather interesting that many who say that they believe that God is Omniscient go out of their way in what they write denying God’s Omniscience.

I believe that when God became Incarnate that He gave up His Omni’s, if He wouldn’t have than He would not have been just as human as you and I and Jesus was just as human as every other human being that ever was, is or will be.

We are created in the “Image of God” (Love), Jesus was Love-Incarnate.

 

[ShynnSup]

Yes, I took latin in school. I just thought you’d might be interested.

Fine thanks.

I want to point out something about the book of lamentations:

First of all, its was written before Christ, 587 years before, to be precise.
So the people of the time were speculating, thats why the ? sings are still there.
Afterwards, Christ came and clarified all these.

Also, although the the book is inspired in the ideas and expressions of prophet Jeremiah, it was not written by him.

Still, the verses do not say nothing that we dont know.

God created earth, and so nature.
Natural disasters are the consequences of man actions towards Earth.
God controls nature, and so if he sends a natural catastrophe in form of punishment he knows why he does it.

In a near future, the earth will suffer as never before. Although God created nature, its man’s fault, as man actions cause nature to react like that.
I must add too, that with today’s technology, its possible to control nature, and so create natural disasters with artificial methods, so watch out for that too, because thats not from God.

So its not evil being created by God, but justice, nature tending to recover its equilibrium.
God is not the author of evil. However, God does reward and punish on the basis of good and bad behavior. Therefore, God does bring judgment and calamity (either directly or through human authorities) on those who rebel. Noah flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? etc etc.

Thus we see that God is not the author of evils, though nothing happens but by his nod and through his will, for far different is his design from that of wicked men. Then absurd would it be to implicate him as all associate ill the same crime, when a murderer, or a thief, or an adulterer is condemned, and why? because God has no participation in thefts and adulteries; but the vices of men are in a way wonderful and incomprehensible as his judgments. In a word, as far as the heavens are from the earth, so great is the difference between the works of God and the deeds of men, for the ends, as I have said, are altogether different.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Job 2:10

But he said to her, “You speak as foolish women do. We accept good things from God; should we not accept evil?” Through all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

 

[tonyrey]

And who is “responsible for His death”?

All of us, is this not so?

Not individually.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not individually.

You might not consider yourself personally responsible but I consider myself personally responsible, since it was a communal (all of humanity) and a personal (individual) thing that God did for us on the cross, Jesus died for my sins and humanity’s sins and I am thankful to God for that.

I happen to be one of those that Jesus was talking about when He said, “Father forgive them…”, and I am grateful.

Who knows, maybe that is one of the reasons why I have met Dad.

Jesus became One of us to die for sinners, I am a sinner, therefore I acknowledge and accept my responsibility for what He did, not only me but for everyone, by His work on the cross.

 

[JamesCaruso]

For those that don’t know it, the Catholic Church, I believe, refers to the fall of man as “O Happy Fault”.

I find it rather interesting that many who say that they believe that God is Omniscient go out of their way in what they write denying God’s Omniscience.

I believe that when God became Incarnate that He gave up His Omni’s, if He wouldn’t have than He would not have been just as human as you and I and Jesus was just as human as every other human being that ever was, is or will be.

We are created in the “Image of God” (Love), Jesus was Love-Incarnate.

I believe in God’s omniscience. The word means He has all knowledge, that He knows everything. I just do not know how people extend that to mean He also know what does not even exist, namely, the future. I hear that tossed around all the time without a thought. It is explained that He is outside of time and therefore He is present to the future. That to me is not even reasonable. Granted He is outside of time, but He cannot be present to something that does not yet exist. Though outside of time and its ravages, I believe that God nevertheless has to suffer through (not literally) our tedious history of sin and wandering to which He is always present. We change, He does not. He is always in the present and that is where we meet Him. If He really knew the future, then He would not have created those who He knew would go to hell by their own free choice. Why would He? What purpose would it serve? Now I realize I might be wrong, but no one has explained it to me yet. Where is it written that He knows the future where free will is involved? He can obviously know the future in terms of the universe which is cause and effect, but spare me the thought that He knows my future free will decisions because He is present to them-- heck, if He is present to the future, that means the future is already past, and I may already be doomed! Yikes! That’s how I see it anyway. I may be wrong, but that’s how I see it from my own thoughtful consideration.