Connection between free will and a known future?

[JamesATyler]

I was just thinking last night about how since the Christian God is omniscient many of the thinkers posting here think that it becomes (arguably) illogical for man to have free will. That’s been explained time again. However, if we are going to examine the Christian God then he is also said to omnipotent as well. So that means he can do anything. Perhaps it just simple enough to say God can both see the future of a man and give him free will at the same time because he omnipotent and this particular feat is not beyond him. Even though it makes sense to me that he can, it may not be necessary to be able to explain it fully but just to say that he can do it by virtue of his unlimited power.

I read one post where a guy thought he had God in a bind because of a game he made up. He would have to buttons, A and B. God would tell him what button he was going to push and then he would push the opposite button, by the power of his free will, thus proving God can be wrong. So there was a big debate about it and everyone exercised their powers of logic, and the argument against God is that he couldn’t predict the guy in that case ever. Not in any way that can be logically deduced. So, what if God can still do it. He’s omnipotent after all. That just means he can do anything even it doesn’t make any sense to earthlings. Right?

 

[JamesATyler]

I believe in God’s omniscience. The word means He has all knowledge, that He knows everything. I just do not know how people extend that to mean He also know what does not even exist, namely, the future. I hear that tossed around all the time without a thought. It is explained that He is outside of time and therefore He is present to the future. That to me is not even reasonable. Granted He is outside of time, but He cannot be present to something that does not yet exist. Though outside of time and its ravages, I believe that God nevertheless has to suffer through (not literally) our tedious history of sin and wandering to which He is always present. We change, He does not. He is always in the present and that is where we meet Him. If He really knew the future, then He would not have created those who He knew would go to hell by their own free choice. Why would He? What purpose would it serve? Now I realize I might be wrong, but no one has explained it to me yet. Where is it written that He knows the future where free will is involved? He can obviously know the future in terms of the universe which is cause and effect, but spare me the thought that He knows my future free will decisions because He is present to them-- heck, if He is present to the future, that means the future is already past, and I may already be doomed! Yikes! That’s how I see it anyway. I may be wrong, but that’s how I see it from my own thoughtful consideration.

I think the reason we think he knows the future is because of his power to foretell the future. He knows the hour of his own death in Jesus. He knows Peter’s denials. Theres a bunch of prophets that foretell the future. He has some insight into what’s going to happen and it can be very specific.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I was just thinking last night about how since the Christian God is omniscient many of the thinkers posting here think that it becomes (arguably) illogical for man to have free will. That’s been explained time again. However, if we are going to examine the Christian God then he is also said to omnipotent as well. So that means he can do anything. Perhaps it just simple enough to say God can both see the future of a man and give him free will at the same time because he omnipotent and this particular feat is not beyond him. Even though it makes sense to me that he can, it may not be necessary to be able to explain it fully but just to say that he can do it by virtue of his unlimited power.

I read one post where a guy thought he had God in a bind because of a game he made up. He would have to buttons, A and B. God would tell him what button he was going to push and then he would push the opposite button, by the power of his free will, thus proving God can be wrong. So there was a big debate about it and everyone exercised their powers of logic, and the argument against God is that he couldn’t predict the guy in that case ever. Not in any way that can be logically deduced. So, what if God can still do it. He’s omnipotent after all. That just means he can do anything even it doesn’t make any sense to earthlings. Right?

The problem classically is solved by saying God can do anything that is consistent with his nature. Which bears out, God is logical so he can do anything that is logical. So questions like can God make a rock so heavy that He can’t lift it become meaningless because it isn’t logical.

Where we come in is for God to know the future it must have happened at some level or it couldn’t be known or it would be not absolute knowledge (omniscience) because it would have the possibility to be changed. e.x. A and B buttons.

 

[Tom_Baum]

JamesCaruso

You wrote, “. I just do not know how people extend that to mean He also know what does not even exist, namely, the future. I hear that tossed around all the time without a thought. It is explained that He is outside of time and therefore He is present to the future. That to me is not even reasonable.”

Can’t speak for others but I have given it much thought, it may not seem “reasonable” to us since we are confined by space and time whereas God isn’t, matter of fact “time” is part of God’s creation, might be hard if not impossible for us to imagine, but why would a Being that can take in the whole of His creation in a spatial sense not be able to take it in, in a temporal sense?

I look at God, so to speak, as only having self-imposed limitations, God giving us free will comes under this heading, not as a Being that has limitations because we can’t conceive of God’s limitationlessness.

You also wrote, “If He really knew the future, then He would not have created those who He knew would go to hell by their own free choice. Why would He? What purpose would it serve? Now I realize I might be wrong, but no one has explained it to me yet.”

Why do you think that God came up with a plan even before creation itself?

Part of this plan is the Incarnation, the rest of the plan is the rest of creation, only God knows all of the details.

The “purpose” it would serve could be many faceted, two of which could be to show God’s Mercy upon the whole human race and to show those caught up in the “law” that not only did the religious of Jesus’s day miss it but the religious of all days missed it.

“Predestination”, spoken of in the bible, is not that God predetermined people’s actions which would make us nothing but fancy puppets on a string but that God “knew”, even before creation, all of creation which includes time.

You then asked, “Where is it written that He knows the future where free will is involved?”

Many places, one of which is where it says, “I know what is on your lips even before you speak”, or words to that effect, there are many others, I am not a bible scholar nor a theologian, just a messenger, so other people may be able to point out other places to you.

You then wrote, “He can obviously know the future in terms of the universe which is cause and effect, but spare me the thought that He knows my future free will decisions because He is present to them-- heck, if He is present to the future, that means the future is already past, and I may already be doomed! Yikes! That’s how I see it anyway. I may be wrong, but that’s how I see it from my own thoughtful consideration.”

As far as “cause and effect” many variables can change things so “cause and effect” only works so far, so the very limited “conception” that you seem to have of God wouldn’t even hold up in the “cause and effect” realm.

Don’t worry, God already does know whether or not you are doomed, as you put it.

Ever thought that God really did take everyone’s sins upon Himself on the cross?

Ever thought that when Jesus said, “After I am lifted up, I will draw everyone to Myself”, that He meant it?

Ever thought that when it says that it is God’s Will that ALL be saved, that it really is God’s Will?

Ever thought about why Jesus asked us to pray “Thy Will be done…”?

Ever given any thought to God’s Justice and God’s Mercy?

Do you think that they may be so intertwined as to be One?

 

[ShynSup]

Job 2:10

But he said to her, “You speak as foolish women do. We accept good things from God; should we not accept evil?” Through all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Is this quote supposed to back up your theory? Because I find no connection.

This is just as simple as it says it.

Take for example, A pregnant woman that prays to God so that her baby, which is still in the tummy, is born healthy. After a week, the baby dies in her tummy.

Is the woman supposed to lose faith and curse God?
She must proceed just as the quote says. Because God has reason we know nothing about.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Because God has reason we know nothing about.

That’s all I’m saying. We can’t judge what the purpose of our lives are to be. We try to guide them this way or another but it ends up the way it’s going to be. Often in ways we didn’t expect. Looking back it often looks like we could have made other choices because through the lens of experience it looks that way. We make the choices we are able, it’s not really a free choice but seems that way. We all play our part. Accept what comes our way. It’s your part in the story, enjoy it. Good and Bad.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I believe in God’s omniscience. The word means He has all knowledge, that He knows everything. I just do not know how people extend that to mean He also know what does not even exist, namely, the future.

By the same token, it might be asked, “How could God create (let alone know) what does not exist?”

It seems to me that if creation ex nihilo is acceptable, knowing of something that “was” completely in his power to create would be a “no brainer.” Creating what does not exist would be much more of a feat than simply knowing what does not. At least, it would seem that way to me.

I hear that tossed around all the time without a thought. It is explained that He is outside of time and therefore He is present to the future. That to me is not even reasonable…

If God creates and sustains an entire universe in existence “from nothing,” how would the universe itself “be present” to him? Whether its presence to God was ten years ago, today or a thousand years from today would seen inconsequential as compared to the present itself being present to God. I am not clear why being present to the future would be any more unreasonable than being present to the present time, involving, as it does, creating the entire shebang to begin with.

 

[ShynSup]

That’s all I’m saying. We can’t judge what the purpose of our lives are to be. We try to guide them this way or another but it ends up the way it’s going to be. Often in ways we didn’t expect. Looking back it often looks like we could have made other choices because through the lens of experience it looks that way. We make the choices we are able, it’s not really a free choice but seems that way. We all play our part. Accept what comes our way. It’s your part in the story, enjoy it. Good and Bad.

Sigh. Again wrong.

As stated before, with support from the bible, God does not create evil, does not tempt anyone, does not create sin.

We may all have a purpose in Gods plan, Gods will.
But that will is violated everyday.

I can go and kill anyone anytime, because I am free. Still that does not mean that my purpose was that one. God will never give me the purpose of sinning. The bible says so.

And no, its does not end up the way its going to be. Everyone that is in hell did not end up being as God wanted it to.
You saying that God gives satanists a purpose of being satanists?
You are delusional.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Sigh. Again wrong.

As stated before, with support from the bible, God does not create evil, does not tempt anyone, does not create sin.

We may all have a purpose in Gods plan, Gods will.
But that will is violated everyday.

I can go and kill anyone anytime, because I am free. Still that does not mean that my purpose was that one. God will never give me the purpose of sinning. The bible says so.

And no, its does not end up the way its going to be. Everyone that is in hell did not end up being as God wanted it to.
You saying that God gives satanists a purpose of being satanists?
You are delusional.

God gave Satan a purpose, why not satanists?

 

[ShynSup]

God gave Satan a purpose, why not satanists?

Stop the troll already, I dont think you know what being satanist means.
How you dare say God gives them the purpose of being such abominations.
And no, God did not gave satan a purpose, thats why he will destroy him.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Stop the troll already, I dont think you know what being satanist means.
How you dare say God gives them the purpose of being such abominations.
And no, God did not gave satan a purpose, thats why he will destroy him.

Hate to keep running over the same old ground, but God knew that Satan would fall before he created Him (or God isn’t omniscient) and He knew that He would tempt Eve and Man would Fall (again or God isn’t Omniscient) so God had a plan for these people. They each played their parts in God’s plan. There isn’t enough free will or ill doing in the world to defeat God or waylay His plans (or He’s not Omnipotent). So it’s all smoke and mirrors for our entertainment. Sometimes it’s terrifying, horrible, beautiful or wonderful but if you believe that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent we’re just along for the ride. Any other view allows that God doesn’t have our best interests in mind and/or isn’t fully in control.

 

[oldcelt]

Hate to keep running over the same old ground, but God knew that Satan would fall before he created Him (or God isn’t omniscient) and He knew that He would tempt Eve and Man would Fall (again or God isn’t Omniscient) so God had a plan for these people. They each played their parts in God’s plan. There isn’t enough free will or ill doing in the world to defeat God or waylay His plans (or He’s not Omnipotent). So it’s all smoke and mirrors for our entertainment. Sometimes it’s terrifying, horrible, beautiful or wonderful but if you believe that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent we’re just along for the ride. Any other view allows that God doesn’t have our best interests in mind and/or isn’t fully in control.

I think that a lot of people do not realize just what a power omniscience is? It means to know everything there is to be known…everything. Add to that omnipotence and omnipresence (the way he could be in multiple eras at the same time). However being all these things brings a great deal of responsibility and I hear some people trying to absolve an almighty deity of that responsibility and lay it on humanity.

Humanity has plenty of blame to take, but we didn’t supposedly create the system.

 

[ShynSup]

Hate to keep running over the same old ground, but God knew that Satan would fall before he created Him (or God isn’t omniscient) and He knew that He would tempt Eve and Man would Fall (again or God isn’t Omniscient) so God had a plan for these people. They each played their parts in God’s plan. There isn’t enough free will or ill doing in the world to defeat God or waylay His plans (or He’s not Omnipotent). So it’s all smoke and mirrors for our entertainment. Sometimes it’s terrifying, horrible, beautiful or wonderful but if you believe that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent we’re just along for the ride. Any other view allows that God doesn’t have our best interests in mind and/or isn’t fully in control.

Its fine, when something is not understood, not matter how many explanations have to be said, all that it matter is that its understood.

You are right God knew. Still, God did not create Satan to turn evil, although he knew, its does not mean its predestined. I repeat, your mind tells you that in order to know the future, there must be a previous design behind, but God does not design people to sin, to be rapists, to be murderers, to be unjust, and to be all the things that he despises.

God only knows if I will murder someone or not, he knows, but its still my choice.
If I go an murder someone, God did knew that will happen, because he is God, but he will be very sad, very hurt, that I went against his will. Because he does not want us to kill anybody, its in the commandments.

You have to understand, that not every is Gods will, or what God wants.
Indeed, he knows everything.

If he knows this man is going to kill, and go to hell, he creates him anyways.

This is the tricky part.

God knows, but its not predestined. This man is free to do whatever he wants, to fight temptation or not to. Still God, as he is all knowing, knows what he will do.

Same with our sins, God knows all our sins, that does not mean they are predestined. Thats were the spiritual fight comes in, with your logic, you can reserve yourself from fighting. With the logic that all your sins are part of Gods plan. They are not. Gods knows them, and still they are not predestined.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Its fine, when something is not understood, not matter how many explanations have to be said, all that it matter is that its understood.

You are right God knew. Still, God did not create Satan to turn evil, although he knew, its does not mean its predestined. I repeat, your mind tells you that in order to know the future, there must be a previous design behind, but God does not design people to sin, to be rapists, to be murderers, to be unjust, and to be all the things that he despises.

God only knows if I will murder someone or not, he knows, but its still my choice.
If I go an murder someone, God did knew that will happen, because he is God, but he will be very sad, very hurt, that I went against his will. Because he does not want us to kill anybody, its in the commandments.

You have to understand, that not every is Gods will, or what God wants.
Indeed, he knows everything.

If he knows this man is going to kill, and go to hell, he creates him anyways.

This is the tricky part.

God knows, but its not predestined. This man is free to do whatever he wants, to fight temptation or not to. Still God, as he is all knowing, knows what he will do.

Same with our sins, God knows all our sins, that does not mean they are predestined. Thats were the spiritual fight comes in, with your logic, you can reserve yourself from fighting. With the logic that all your sins are part of Gods plan. They are not. Gods knows them, and still they are not predestined.

I appreciate your participation but we’ve covered most of this in this lengthy thread.

The act of creation created all events in time. every single one. God is outside of time. All events and places are “now” and “here”. The moment of creation, the end of creation, and all the moments in between are “now” to God.

All your choices have been made in Gods view. It is because you are in time you have the impression that you are making a choice. You are following a script. It’s already happened in the eyes of God. At some level you are already in heaven… or hell. Enjoy your time.

 

[ShynSup]

I appreciate your participation but we’ve covered most of this in this lengthy thread.

The act of creation created all events in time. every single one. God is outside of time. All events and places are “now” and “here”. The moment of creation, the end of creation, and all the moments in between are “now” to God.

All your choices have been made in Gods view. It is because you are in time you have the impression that you are making a choice. You are following a script. It’s already happened in the eyes of God. At some level you are already in heaven… or hell. Enjoy your time.

In Gods eyes yes, everyone is already in hell or heaven. He is God, he knows everything.

But I would not put it as “We are just following as script”

As I told you, God does not create this script, God does not create our choices, He knows them.

God did not made us, like robots, to follow a script, created to do all that He programmed in us. No.

We are free, we can either do what God would like us to do, or reveal and go against him.

Lets me serious here, you cant just keep ignoring the words of the bible, because God does cover this topic for us, so that we dont have this misconceptions, doubts, etc.

Again, the fact that God knows, does not mean we are just robots following the life he pre designed for us. He has no life designed for us. I mean, he does, in the good way. For instance, God did designed that I was born in a family that educated me in Catholicism, thank God for that. But if I go and kill someone, He did not design that for my life, It was my free will going against him. If he knew it would happen? Of course, did He plan it that way? Of course not.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

In Gods eyes yes, everyone is already in hell or heaven. He is God, he knows everything.

But I would not put it as “We are just following as script”

As I told you, God does not create this script, God does not create our choices, He knows them.

God did not made us, like robots, to follow a script, created to do all that He programmed in us. No.

We are free, we can either do what God would like us to do, or reveal and go against him.

Lets me serious here, you cant just keep ignoring the words of the bible, because God does cover this topic for us, so that we dont have this misconceptions, doubts, etc.

Again, the fact that God knows, does not mean we are just robots following the life he pre designed for us. He has no life designed for us. I mean, he does, in the good way. For instance, God did designed that I was born in a family that educated me in Catholicism, thank God for that. But if I go and kill someone, He did not design that for my life, It was my free will going against him. If he knew it would happen? Of course, did He plan it that way? Of course not.

I’m not ignoring the bible, I’ve quoted it quite a few times. I just disagree with you, it’s not through lack of understanding. I am coming do a different conclusion based on the same information. It’s the philosophy section, we’re exploring ideas

Ephesians 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,c who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,*

4 as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.d In love

5** he destined us** for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will

2 Thessalonians 2:11

Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,

Romans 8

28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.v
30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

 

[tonyrey]

I think that a lot of people do not realize just what a power omniscience is? It means to know everything there is to be known…everything. Add to that omnipotence and omnipresence (the way he could be in multiple eras at the same time). However being all these things brings a great deal of responsibility and I hear some people trying to absolve an almighty deity of that responsibility and lay it on humanity.

Humanity has plenty of blame to take, but we didn’t supposedly create the system.

System or no system? Which would you prefer?

 

[oldcelt]

System or no system? Which would you prefer?

Than the one described in Christianity…NONE.

 

[ShynSup]

But your conclusion is in conflict with the bible and basic Catholic teachings:

God’s will is not always accomplished.
God does not create evil, nor tempt anyone to sin, nor create anyone to sin.
There is no predestination, we are free.
People decide whether they will go to hell or heaven, with their actions, their decisions, choices, sacrifices, etc.
God does not want anyone to go to hell.
All that God wants is that we love each other as ourselves, thus God would not create someone full of hate, such as satanists. Let me explain further.

Satanists, do everything possible to make a christian loss faith, curses, sacrifices, rituals.
Satanists try to cause God as much pain as they possible can, by sacrileges, sins.
They attack and curse the holy spirit.
“And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

They kill animals, participate in orgies, and even human sacrifices. Most of the times, of a recently born baby, which is the most pure and innocent creature.

They steal consecrated hosts, in order to spit it, and do all terrible things to it.

God does not give satanist the purpose of being satanists. There is no such role to play.

Its their own decision.

As stated before, with your logic, there will be no purpose in fighting temptation. Thats a misconception. Do you realize?

Also, you could label God as evil, as he creates people knowing they will go to hell, when he is clearly all loving.

God wants all people to be saved.

First Timothy 2:4 says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Second Peter 3:8 says that the Lord is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The apostle Peter correctly stated“In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:34-35). This verse testifies to the fact that the Bible presents God as a perfectly impartial, fair Being Who gives every person an equal opportunity to respond to the truth

Suppose you are a father, and you have a son. You would like him to be a righteous loving person. But instead he turns into an evil murderer, you will obviously suffer an immense sadness and pain, even more, knowing that you must apply justice, and condemn him.

It is a hard concept to grasp, but if you think logically, with the evidence of the bible and its teachings, everything becomes crystal clear.

Regarding the quotes.

1. Yes God did predestined his apostles. Chosen people. Same as Mary. Still this does not mean they had an easy and free pass to heaven. They actually had it much harder than what we do. They had to go through immense suffering, ignorance, persecution, blasphemies, attacks, etc.
   They were also tempted, and had to fight temptation. They were all free not to obey God, in fact one did not. And he did not had the purpose of betraying God, it was his choice.
2. Did you read the context of that quote?
   2:10 It will happen with every sort of wicked deception of those who are heading toward destruction because they have refused to love the truth that would allow them to be saved.
   2:12 so that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
3. Same as first one, they are people that are chosen, such as his apostles.

Your argument is totally skeptic.

“Once the skeptic realizes that he cannot rationally conclude that God is unfair for allowing all people to choose their own destiny, he must insist that the mere fact God knew some people would choose hell should have kept God from creating those people. An adequate response to such a statement is simply, “Who says?” Is there anything about the skeptic’s charge that shows some type of inherent moral rightness? There is nothing. And while, “Who says?” is an adequate response, it is not the only one at the disposal of the biblical theist. While it is true that God could have only created those humans that He knew would choose heaven, would the skeptic call that “fair”? Would it be fair for God not to create a person, and thereby deprive that person of the same opportunities and chances as other people, simply because God knew that person would choose hell? Such a course of action would actually be truly “unfair” and would land God in the real moral dilemma of showing partiality. On the contrary, the only way for God to be truly fair to all His human creatures would be to allow each of them the same opportunity to choose their own final destination.”

If you still do not comprehend why you are wrong, all that is left is to pray for understanding, and for the moment.

Again, God has reason we know nothing about. We know he is all loving, perfectly just and fair and infinitely wise, so he knows why he creates people knowing they are going to do terrible things.

Its like saying you wont have a son for the fear of he committing 1 sin.

 

[ARSpade]

I appreciate your participation but we’ve covered most of this in this lengthy thread.

The act of creation created all events in time. every single one. God is outside of time. All events and places are “now” and “here”. The moment of creation, the end of creation, and all the moments in between are “now” to God.

All your choices have been made in Gods view. It is because you are in time you have the impression that you are making a choice. You are following a script. It’s already happened in the eyes of God. At some level you are already in heaven… or hell. Enjoy your time.

Why do you assume that simply because God knows your choice that you’re following a script?

You had a choice, that you made freely. It’s just that from God’s perspective you already made that free choice. This doesn’t mean you followed a “script” while doing it.