Connection between free will and a known future?

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Predestination is not about us being puppets on a string but is merely that God knows absolutely everything about everyone before anyone does anything.

Why do you think that God came up with a Plan for the reconcilliation between God and man (humanity) even before there was a split in the relationship between God and man, even before there was man (humanity) to have a relationship split with?

God knew that some would never repent this side of breath, that is why God came up with a Plan that has ALL of the bases covered so that ALL make it home, to use a baseball metaphor.

As it is written, “First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

As Jesus said, “When I am lifted up, I will draw EVERYONE to Myself”.

There are many things that point to the catholicity of God’s Plan.

Do we really need to know all of the details or should we hope and trust that God is not the blood sucker that many of us believe God to be and much sadder to say, many of us want God to be?

If the GOOD NEWS is not Good News for ALL than it is not good news at all, but is horrific news.

Jesus won the keys to the netherworld by all that He accomplished in the Incarnation and will use these keys in due time, God’s Time, as Jesus said, “and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, “It” being Jesus’s Church.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
Even in the Lord’s Prayer it states " lead us not in to Tempation " but again I’m not saying anyone is going to hell. That is for God to decide.
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I didnt say you said that.

But you keep on contradicting the bible by saying that God gives wicked man a purpose. They are not wicked because God wants it.
 
JamesCaruso said:
Yes, I agree with you. For example, if a person were about to assassinate the Pope, God forbid, without interfering with the person’s free will, God could cause the gun to jam. Thus, both the person was able to freely exercise his free will and God was able to ensure that the Pope continues to live.
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Which would seem to entail that God’s activity could be supportive and conducive of free will rather than a force in opposition to it. The fact that God knows what a person will do (given all antecedent conditions) means that God could stifle free will completely by closing off all alternatives to the agent, but could likewise - given God’s implicit endorsement of free will as Creator of human agency - provide a continuous impetus - and means, in fact - by which the agent becomes a free agent.

If God positively wills human agents to have free will, then contrary to God interfering with it, he could act to bring about precisely the opposite - the very possibility for free agency.

God’s knowledge, therefore, need not entail the fixed determination of what we will, but could be the means by which free will becomes an ontological possibility.
 
Are any of you familiar with the “O my Jesus prayer”

O my Jesus,
forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell;
Lead ALL souls to heaven,
especially those in most need of they Mercy.
Amen

I believe that this relatively new prayer ties in nicely with the topic “Connection between free will and a known future?”

We are asked to pray to God-Incarnate on behalf of everyone and their sins.

We are asked to pray to God-Incarnate to save us from, not necessarily keep us from, the fires of hell.

We are asked to pray to God-Incarnate to “Lead ALL souls to heaven”, seems self explanatory to me, doesn’t it to you?

And then the kicker, “especially those in most need of they Mercy. Amen”, by the way Amen means I believe.

Isn’t this a wonderful prayer to “believe in” and doesn’t it seem that in this day and age that it is a “Godsend” from God?

Even tho it is written that it is “God’s Will that ALL BE SAVED”, many seem to think that a tie is alright, well it isn’t, a tie would be horrific news, the Good News is that the Good News is for ALL to be, ultimately, with God.

God’s Plan which God has had since before creation is unfolding before our very eyes.

God paid the price (ransom) and we are asked to pray for “God’s Will to be done”, isn’t the first time that we have been asked to do this, is it?
 
Tom_Baum said:
You might not consider yourself personally responsible but I consider myself personally responsible, since it was a communal (all of humanity) and a personal (individual) thing that God did for us on the cross, Jesus died for my sins and humanity’s sins and I am thankful to God for that.

I happen to be one of those that Jesus was talking about when He said, “Father forgive them…”, and I am grateful.

Who knows, maybe that is one of the reasons why I have met Dad.

Jesus became One of us to die for sinners, I am a sinner, therefore I acknowledge and accept my responsibility for what He did, not only me but for everyone, by His work on the cross.
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I specified “individually responsible” with regard to original sin - in accordance with the Catechism’s statement. It is only** our own sins **for which we are personally responsible and which make us culpable.
 
ShynSup said:
I didnt say you said that.

But you keep on contradicting the bible by saying that God gives wicked man a purpose. They are not wicked because God wants it.
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I am quoting the bible

*2 Thessalonians 2 *

11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

*Jude *

4 For there have been some intruders, who long ago were designated for this condemnation, godless persons, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Even some of the Church Fathers also thought along the same lines

St.Thomas Aquinas

“God does reprobate some. For it was said above (A[1]) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[2]). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[1]). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”

St Augustine

He promised not from the power of our will but from His own predestination. For He promised what He Himself would do, not what men would do. Because, although men do those good things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. Otherwise the fulfillment of God’s promises would not be in the power of God, but in that of men; and thus what was promised by God to Abraham would be given to Abraham by men themselves. Abraham, however, did not believe thus, but “he believed, giving glory to God, that what He promised He is able also to do.”3489 He does not say, “to foretell”—he does not say, “to foreknow;” for He can foretell and foreknow the doings of strangers also; but he says, “He is able also to do;” and thus he is speaking not of the doings of others, but of His own.

BTW The spanish crooked line saying is spot on imo.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
I am quoting the bible

*2 Thessalonians 2 *

11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.
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Snippets can be used to prove anything! You have omitted the previous lines:
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish **because they refused to love the truth **and so be saved. 11
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*Jude *

4 For there have been some intruders, who long ago were designated for this condemnation, godless persons, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Even some of the Church Fathers also thought along the same lines

St.Thomas Aquinas

“God does reprobate some. For it was said above (A[1]) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[2]). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[1]). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”

St Augustine

He promised not from the power of our will but from His own predestination. For He promised what He Himself would do, not what men would do. Because, although men do those good things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. Otherwise the fulfillment of God’s promises would not be in the power of God, but in that of men; and thus what was promised by God to Abraham would be given to Abraham by men themselves. Abraham, however, did not believe thus, but “he believed, giving glory to God, that what He promised He is able also to do.”3489 He does not say, “to foretell”—he does not say, “to foreknow;” for He can foretell and foreknow the doings of strangers also; but he says, “He is able also to do;” and thus he is speaking not of the doings of others, but of His own.

BTW The spanish crooked line saying is spot on imo.
You are overlooking the key words:

“reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin.”

"Because, although men do those** good** things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. "

NB He does not asset that God commands men to do those **bad **things…
 
tonyrey said:
Snippets can be used to prove anything! You have omitted the previous lines:

*Jude *

4 For there have been some intruders, who long ago were designated for this condemnation, godless persons, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Even some of the Church Fathers also thought along the same lines

St.Thomas Aquinas

“God does reprobate some. For it was said above (A[1]) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[2]). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Q[22], A[1]). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.”

St Augustine

He promised not from the power of our will but from His own predestination. For He promised what He Himself would do, not what men would do. Because, although men do those good things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. Otherwise the fulfillment of God’s promises would not be in the power of God, but in that of men; and thus what was promised by God to Abraham would be given to Abraham by men themselves. Abraham, however, did not believe thus, but “he believed, giving glory to God, that what He promised He is able also to do.”3489 He does not say, “to foretell”—he does not say, “to foreknow;” for He can foretell and foreknow the doings of strangers also; but he says, “He is able also to do;” and thus he is speaking not of the doings of others, but of His own.

BTW The spanish crooked line saying is spot on imo.
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You are overlooking the key words:

“reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin.”

"Because, although men do those** good** things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. "

NB He does not asset that God commands men to do those **bad **things…

Well said and explained.

Tho, about the qoute: 2 Thessalonians 2

11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

I already explained that he must take** into account the context** of the qoute, but he keeps using it…

Previous message:

"2. Did you read the context of that quote?
2:10 It will happen with every sort of wicked deception of those who are heading toward destruction because they have refused to love the truth that would allow them to be saved.
2:11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
2:12 so that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "
 
bluemug said:
I read an interesting Spanish saying:
“God can write straight on a crooked line.”
If we make our life messy (=like a crooked line) following our free will, God still can manage to apply his master plan (= write straight) in our life.
We have free will on little things ( e.g. What we are going to have for dinner tonight ), but God can use his will to over rule other important things to be in line with his master plan.
This is IMHO ( In My Humble Opinion), maybe wrong…:confused:
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I agree with you, expect for the part of “free will for little things”

I do understand that God has a plan for all of us, and He may help us in many ways through our life to get our path straighten up. But we are free and we can choose to abandon our path anytime, and get as far as we want from it. We can even choose to deny or not listen the actions God is making to help us get back on track. Its all our choice.

Of course, God is in final control of everything, he is God, but what I mean by this controls is that evil will not prevail over the light. That the prophecies will be fulfilled. That satan will be destroyed. Final control over everything does not mean that things are going as God planned them, wanted. Right now, God is in an immense pain by seeing how lost humanity is, and by knowing what awaits us…
 
tonyrey said:
“permit” does not mean “cause”!
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You may want to read Father Serpa’s answer to today’s question. It would seem that one of the clergy does not carry your certainty regarding God’s level of control over human life.

John
 
If everyone was doing God’s will then no one would need a savior and Jesus would never have come to die for our sins. There wouldn’t be any sin since we understand sin as going against God’s will. So if you accept that everything is God’s will, then you either have to start calling both the good and bad as “all good”, or that God does good and evil, or that an all good God doesn’t exist because this God is not compatible with the truth that there is evil in the world, or that God has gone away for a time but promises to return at which time he will dispense justice to living and the dead (although this conflicts with the idea of God being present everywhere).
 
Peter_Plato said:
Which would seem to entail that God’s activity could be supportive and conducive of free will rather than a force in opposition to it. The fact that God knows what a person will do (given all antecedent conditions) means that God could stifle free will completely by closing off all alternatives to the agent, but could likewise - given God’s implicit endorsement of free will as Creator of human agency - provide a continuous impetus - and means, in fact - by which the agent becomes a free agent.

If God positively wills human agents to have free will, then contrary to God interfering with it, he could act to bring about precisely the opposite - the very possibility for free agency.

God’s knowledge, therefore, need not entail the fixed determination of what we will, but could be the means by which free will becomes an ontological possibility.
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I think I understand what you are saying, and if so, I agree. And whereas God can take action to ensure free will (actual grace?), man’s tendency toward slavery to sin serves to ensure that his free will is weakened, though you might argue, nevertheless free. My theory not of my own making is that our freedom only consists in our decision as to which slavery we will subject ourselves to, slavery to God’s will, or slavery to sin, that is, slavery to Satan. I don’t think you can have it both ways, as St. James says, “a double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.” But certainly we can fall and pick ourselves up again availing ourselves of the sacrament of Penance, and the grace of Holy Eucharist, thereby submitting once more to obedience to God and His law, wherein only our true freedom resides. .
 
ShynSup said:
Why anybody is discussing anymore? 🤷
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I know we’ve been up one side and down the other. But I think people, Catholics, anyway, enjoy these discussions, perhaps taking them far beyond any need for overall clarity. And there are a lot of nuances. One thing to do if you begin to feel pestered by emails to come back to the thread is to unsubscribe to the thread. It won’t take you out of other threads in which you are interested, just this one. 🙂 peace.
 
JamesCaruso said:
I think I understand what you are saying, and if so, I agree. And whereas God can take action to ensure free will (actual grace?), man’s tendency toward slavery to sin serves to ensure that his free will is weakened, though you might argue, nevertheless free. My theory not of my own making is that our freedom only consists in our decision as to which slavery we will subject ourselves to, slavery to God’s will, or slavery to sin, that is, slavery to Satan. I don’t think you can have it both ways, as St. James says, “a double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.” But certainly we can fall and pick ourselves up again availing ourselves of the sacrament of Penance, and the grace of Holy Eucharist, thereby submitting once more to obedience to God and His law, wherein only our true freedom resides. .
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I think it’s more are you going to walk or be dragged.
 
JamesATyler said:
If everyone was doing God’s will then no one would need a savior and Jesus would never have come to die for our sins. There wouldn’t be any sin since we understand sin as going against God’s will. So if you accept that everything is God’s will, then you either have to start calling both the good and bad as “all good”, or that God does good and evil, or that an all good God doesn’t exist because this God is not compatible with the truth that there is evil in the world, or that God has gone away for a time but promises to return at which time he will dispense justice to living and the dead (although this conflicts with the idea of God being present everywhere).
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This is an entirely different discussion but like hell, which is a separation from God, evil is defined as the privation of good. So again if God is all good and he’s everywhere how can there be a privation of good. It has to be from our perspective that things are good or evil, not God’s. Just as we can look at God’s acts that we may consider as morally objectionable like ordering the deaths of Canaanite and Egyptian children. One apologetic defense is God ends all life, it doesn’t matter how he does it. Evil, it’s a matter of perspective.

If you are to believe that God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent, there is no place that his goodness is not, and it is the most powerful force in the universe. You have to drop one characteristic for it not to be so.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
This is an entirely different discussion but like hell, which is a separation from God, .
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Actually, hell is not separation from God, spiritual death is.

Hell can be likened to seeing all of one’s wrongdoings and the ramifications of one’s wrongdoings thru the Eyes of Pure Love, God’s Eyes one could say, and one will also come to the realization that they have no one to blame but themself and that they built their hell, themself.

Jesus, Himself, went to hell, everyone’s hell.

It is spoken of that Jesus paid the “ransom”, how do you or anyone else think that He paid that “ransom”?

Lot more going on at the cross than just the physical.
 
To me, the biggest problem for the advocates of free will is found at the very beginning of each human life. No human being is given a choice of when, where or to whom we are born, perhaps the biggest determinants of a person’s future Under the Christian Model, our lives begin in a pre-determined way and the determiner is none other than God.

The deck is stacked from the outset by this model. Some are born phenomenally wealthy with all the financial advantages…some middle class…and some dirt poor. Others are surrounded by drug use, child abuse, ignorance and so on.

How can one’s life be totally free when it was determined by someone else what resources would be available to you in the key early years. What about people who are born to just plain poor parents? That could happen in any economic strata, but it still dramatically influences free will.
 
oldcelt said:
To me, the biggest problem for the advocates of free will is found at the very beginning of each human life. No human being is given a choice of when, where or to whom we are born, perhaps the biggest determinants of a person’s future Under the Christian Model, our lives begin in a pre-determined way and the determiner is none other than God.

The deck is stacked from the outset by this model. Some are born phenomenally wealthy with all the financial advantages…some middle class…and some dirt poor. Others are surrounded by drug use, child abuse, ignorance and so on.

How can one’s life be totally free when it was determined by someone else what resources would be available to you in the key early years. What about people who are born to just plain poor parents? That could happen in any economic strata, but it still dramatically influences free will.
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Abraham Lincoln is an answer to your question! And he is but one of many…
 
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