Connection between free will and a known future?

[Roscoe_Turner]

Actually, hell is not separation from God, spiritual death is.

Hell can be likened to seeing all of one’s wrongdoings and the ramifications of one’s wrongdoings thru the Eyes of Pure Love, God’s Eyes one could say, and one will also come to the realization that they have no one to blame but themself and that they built their hell, themself.

Jesus, Himself, went to hell, everyone’s hell.

It is spoken of that Jesus paid the “ransom”, how do you or anyone else think that He paid that “ransom”?

Lot more going on at the cross than just the physical.

To whom did Jesus pay this ransome? Himself?

 

[Tom_Baum]

To me, the biggest problem for the advocates of free will is found at the very beginning of each human life. No human being is given a choice of when, where or to whom we are born, perhaps the biggest determinants of a person’s future Under the Christian Model, our lives begin in a pre-determined way and the determiner is none other than God.

The deck is stacked from the outset by this model. Some are born phenomenally wealthy with all the financial advantages…some middle class…and some dirt poor. Others are surrounded by drug use, child abuse, ignorance and so on.

How can one’s life be totally free when it was determined by someone else what resources would be available to you in the key early years. What about people who are born to just plain poor parents? That could happen in any economic strata, but it still dramatically influences free will.

Just because one is dealt the hand that they have to play, doesn’t mean that they are not the one that freely plays the hand that they are dealt, does it?

 

[Tom_Baum]

To whom did Jesus pay this ransome? Himself?

Guess you are going to have to ask God when you meet God, I am merely a messenger to tell the world that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL, ultimately, to be in God’s Kingdom.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Guess you are going to have to ask God when you meet God, I am merely a messenger to tell the world that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is for ALL, ultimately, to be in God’s Kingdom.

It’s an empty statement then. If we don’t know whom he paid, how do we know it needed to be paid?

 

[oldcelt]

Just because one is dealt the hand that they have to play, doesn’t mean that they are not the one that freely plays the hand that they are dealt, does it?

Certainly, if you are forced to play the game without their consent and there is no way to opt out of the game, at least not without condemning your soul.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Certainly, if you are forced to play the game without their consent and there is no way to opt out of the game, at least not without condemning your soul.

Simple question, as far as you know, did you ask to be born?

Another simple question, do you think that you are a puppet on a string or do you think that you make the decisions that you make?

As far as “condemning your soul”, there seem to be plenty of people that are “know-it-alls” and know exactly, or think they do, about the who and why and everything else about the condemnations of God, I, myself, will leave all judgements to God for the simple reason that many who seem to “know-it-all”, don’t seem to know anything about God beyond God’s Name.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It’s an empty statement then. If we don’t know whom he paid, how do we know it needed to be paid?

I only know what I know and I believe what I believe and I, most definitely, believe that the words (know and believe) do NOT mean the same thing.

I believe that the “ransom” is indeed paid to God from God for our benefit and one day we, all of us, will know just what this means and be thankful.

One can be thankful not only for what Someone has done for them but what Someone has done for others.

I also believe that no matter how much we may want to understand everything, there are some things that, on our own so to speak, we are incapable of understanding.

 

[oldcelt]

Simple question, as far as you know, did you ask to be born?

Another simple question, do you think that you are a puppet on a string or do you think that you make the decisions that you make?

As far as “condemning your soul”, there seem to be plenty of people that are “know-it-alls” and know exactly, or think they do, about the who and why and everything else about the condemnations of God, I, myself, will leave all judgements to God for the simple reason that many who seem to “know-it-all”, don’t seem to know anything about God beyond God’s Name.

Did I ask to be born, almost certainly not

Am I a puppet?
Under the Christian model, yes. Original sin and other concepts altered the rules and the definition of free will.Since the God I have come to believe in is involved in none of those, I feel that I have true will and am, therefore not a puppet.

So far as condemning one’s soul I was speaking about the Catholic teachings on suicide. I may not know much about this world, but enough to make some decisions and judgments without consulting God, sine I view Him as non-interventionist.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I only know what I know and I believe what I believe and I, most definitely, believe that the words (know and believe) do NOT mean the same thing.

I believe that the “ransom” is indeed paid to God from God for our benefit and one day we, all of us, will know just what this means and be thankful.

One can be thankful not only for what Someone has done for them but what Someone has done for others.

I also believe that no matter how much we may want to understand everything, there are some things that, on our own so to speak, we are incapable of understanding.

Why would god need to pay a ransom to himself? He isn’t lacking in anyway, can’t be reduced and is all powerful? What would he need a ransom for?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Why would god need to pay a ransom to himself? He isn’t lacking in anyway, can’t be reduced and is all powerful? What would he need a ransom for?

Good questions. Keep asking them.

The problem is that you dismiss the questions because you think the fact YOU have not found a suitable answer means there is none to be found. The conclusion does not follow.

It’s an empty statement then. If we don’t know whom he paid, how do we know it needed to be paid?

“Payment” in this case does not require a “whom.” What is important is an answer to “Why?”

“Ransom” is not a precise term, it is being used as a metaphor for “make up for what is lacking or missing.”

So the questions “What is lacking?” and “Why did it need to be made up?” become important ones and ought not merely be cast aside.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Did I ask to be born, almost certainly not.

This is like asking, “Did I ask to be myself?”

How would you even know what a “self” was without being made a “self” by whatever creative power it was that brought your “self” into existence?

Obviously, we cannot bootstrap ourselves into existence, so we are beholden to something “other” than “a self” in order to even have a “self” that can make a judgement about whether existence itself is preferable to non-existence.

The other issue is whether the aspects of the “I” to which you refer with the question “Did I ask to be born?” are completely attributable to this “other” creative power. Things may have been very different if whatever “other” it was that brought your “self” into being had been treated (by you) as more than a “non-interventionist” who can safely be ignored in all those decisions that have led you to conclude, “I almost certainly did not ask to be born.”

 

[oldcelt]

This is like asking, “Did I ask to be myself?”

How would you even know what a “self” was without being made a “self” by whatever creative power it was that brought your “self” into existence?

Obviously, we cannot bootstrap ourselves into existence, so we are beholden to something “other” than “a self” in order to even have a “self” that can make a judgement about whether existence itself is preferable to non-existence.

The other issue is whether the aspects of the “I” to which you refer with the question “Did I ask to be born?” are completely attributable to this “other” creative power. Things may have been very different if whatever “other” it was that brought your “self” into being had been treated (by you) as more than a “non-interventionist” who can safely be ignored in all those decisions that have led you to conclude, “I almost certainly did not ask to be born.”

I was asked the question, so I answered it, Perhaps I was just in spirit form when the Deity asked me if I warned to play. In truth, if told all the rules and possibilities I doubt that very many would choose creation. I know I would prefer to float around the cosmos formless than to have actually been born. I’ve accomplished some things, but someone else could pick up the slack.

Oh, and I certainly hope that the attitude of some theoretical spirit child would substantially change the mind of an infinite.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I was asked the question, so I answered it, Perhaps I was just in spirit form when the Deity asked me if I warned to play. In truth, if told all the rules and possibilities I doubt that very many would choose creation. I know I would prefer to float around the cosmos formless than to have actually been born. I’ve accomplished some things, but someone else could pick up the slack.

Perhaps this may be due to a misunderstanding of why we are born and exist that leads to weighing “accomplished …” to a degree that skews the entire valuation.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I was asked the question, so I answered it, Perhaps I was just in spirit form when the Deity asked me if I warned to play. In truth, if told all the rules and possibilities I doubt that very many would choose creation. I know I would prefer to float around the cosmos formless than to have actually been born. I’ve accomplished some things, but someone else could pick up the slack.

Oh, and I certainly hope that the attitude of some theoretical spirit child would substantially change the mind of an infinite.

After reading my last post (and given your last line edit) I think another response to this might be possible.

If we conflate “self” and “world” as one entity, then your reply that you "would prefer to float around the cosmos formless than to have actually been born” does have cogency depending on the strength of the tie between “self” and “world.”

If the “world” within which a person abides makes ALL the difference, there seems no room left for “self” to add value anywhere.

What if “self” were completely extracted (theoretical spirit child?) as its own individuality? Why would the circumstances of birth be the necessary determiners of one’s “self” worth?
Suppose the “externals” were removed and “self” could be valuated on its own terms entirely on criteria not grounded in the external circumstances, would that not put an entirely different slant on the evaluation?

If “self” worth entirely depends upon the external circumstances of life (wealth, honour, power, security, endowments, etc.) and the loss of those externals implies a complete devaluation of one’s worth, then “self” really made no difference in the valuation, to begin with. Something appears skewed in that case.

 

[oldcelt]

Perhaps this may be due to a misunderstanding of why we are born and exist that leads to weighing “accomplished …” to a degree that skews the entire valuation.

Perhaps I’m not the one with the misunderstanding. I believe that our birth, life and death are an accident caused by the love or lust of two opposite gender people.I had no more choice in being born than a spring fawn.
I have answered some questions the way I have because I felt that the asker did not understand my current beliefs or because the lack of true free will needed to be pointed out.

 

[tonyrey]

Perhaps I’m not the one with the misunderstanding. I believe that our birth, life and death are an accident caused by the love or lust of two opposite gender people.I had no more choice in being born than a spring fawn.
I have answered some questions the way I have because I felt that the asker did not understand my current beliefs or because the lack of true free will needed to be pointed out.

Is love also an accident? And are our thoughts accidents?

 

[oldcelt]

Is love also an accident? And are our thoughts accidents?

Our emotions and thoughts are a result of our intellect, Love is caused by many different forms of attraction. My point is that I don’t believe that any infinite thought :You know, John and Cheryl should be together."
Nope, I have to take that 8 years squarely on my own shoulders. A hideous waste of time and effort brought about by John and Cheryl.

 

[tonyrey]

Our emotions and thoughts are a result of our intellect, Love is caused by many different forms of attraction. My point is that I don’t believe that any infinite thought :You know, John and Cheryl should be together."
Nope, I have to take that 8 years squarely on my own shoulders. A hideous waste of time and effort brought about by John and Cheryl.

In other words you alone are responsible for your apparent misfortune. No one else…

 

[tonyrey]

Did I ask to be born, almost certainly not.

How can a non-existent person ask to be born?

Your impossible demand implies that no one should should ever be created, thereby depriving everyone of all the opportunities life offers… If any view is nihilistic this one certainly fits the bill.

Am I a puppet?
Under the Christian model, yes. Original sin and other concepts altered the rules and the definition of free will.Since the God I have come to believe in is involved in none of those, I feel that I have true will and am, therefore not a puppet.

How did you happen to acquire “true will”?

So far as condemning one’s soul I was speaking about the Catholic teachings on suicide. I may not know much about this world, but enough to make some decisions and judgments without consulting God, sine I view Him as non-interventionist.

Once again the question arises as to how you acquired this power to make decisions and judgments by yourself if all our behaviour is due to natural causes.

 

[oldcelt]

In other words you alone are responsible for your apparent misfortune. No one else…

For the most part, with some occasional assistance from my fellow human beings and a great deal of help from nature.

Before I studied the Catholic/Christian God quite thoroughly, I would have blamed him. Fortunately, my illnesses, for the most part, came after I’d made my choice. Since I no longer believed in his existence, it would be illogical to blame Him for my health or any other issues.

My parents gambled, and I drew bad hands health-wise almost from moment one. That’s just the way it is in my world. I’m not angry, or bitter, but I am tired.