Connection between free will and a known future?

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Good questions. Keep asking them.

The problem is that you dismiss the questions because you think the fact YOU have not found a suitable answer means there is none to be found. The conclusion does not follow.

“Payment” in this case does not require a “whom.” What is important is an answer to “Why?”

“Ransom” is not a precise term, it is being used as a metaphor for “make up for what is lacking or missing.”

So the questions “What is lacking?” and “Why did it need to be made up?” become important ones and ought not merely be cast aside.
No one has offered an answer, so I’m not the only one in the dark.

The why and whom are both important. If he’s only paying himself, it seems to be grandstanding to make it significant. If he can’t be reduced then there is nothing lacking and the need to ransom is an empty gesture.
 
Good questions. Keep asking them.

The problem is that you dismiss the questions because you think the fact YOU have not found a suitable answer means there is none to be found. The conclusion does not follow.

“Payment” in this case does not require a “whom.” What is important is an answer to “Why?”

“Ransom” is not a precise term, it is being used as a metaphor for “make up for what is lacking or missing.”

So the questions “What is lacking?” and “Why did it need to be made up?” become important ones and ought not merely be cast aside.
👍 “Reparation” is the best alternative to “ransom” because it implies the rectification of injustice, liberation from evil and the restoration of harmony. Anyone who believes the bloodstained history of the human race is not conclusive evidence of the need for intervention is unrealistic. It is highly significant that no other solution to the problem of evil is forthcoming…
 
How can a non-existent person ask to be born?

Your impossible demand implies that no one should should ever be created, thereby depriving everyone of all the opportunities life offers… If any view is nihilistic this one certainly fits the bill.

How did you happen to acquire “true will”?

Once again the question arises as to how you acquired this power to make decisions and judgments by yourself if all our behaviour is due to natural causes. :confused:
To my mind there has to be a moment before a person’s essence is sent to earth that they exist in another realm…it may even be a lengthy period of time. I have never seen an answer one way or the other.

No, each should be given their choice, at their moment of creation or we are merely experimental models for someone who already knows the outcome. That is true free will…I left out the free on your next question. For the other part of the question, I apparently see life very differently, or am I just willing to admit it? I don’t know.

Making decisions based on natural causes happens all the time. You see a severe storm, you take shelter…another person terrorizes tour family, you take care of it. There is nothing supernatural or miraculous needed.
 
In other words you alone
I’m still wondering how you can be to blame if you’re the product of natural events…
Before I studied the Catholic/Christian God quite thoroughly, I would have blamed him. Fortunately, my illnesses, for the most part, came after I’d made my choice. Since I no longer believed in his existence, it would be illogical to blame Him for my health or any other issues.
It is certainly illogical to reallocate the blame to yourself for the reason I have just given. In fact evil is an illusion in a Godless universe. It is watered down to mere inconvenience and unpleasantness.
My parents gambled, and I drew bad hands health-wise almost from moment one. That’s just the way it is in my world. I’m not angry, or bitter, but I am tired.
But you don’t believe that is the whole story because if you take at least 8 years “squarely on your own shoulders” it can’t be entirely a matter of bad luck…
 
👍 “Reparation” is the best alternative to “ransom” because it implies the rectification of injustice, liberation from evil and the restoration of harmony. Anyone who believes the bloodstained history of the human race is not conclusive evidence of the need for intervention is unrealistic. It is highly significant that no other solution to the problem of evil is forthcoming…
You must mean the one that God knew all about but decided to go through with that creation? Why? So he could send his son to save all people except for those he already knew would not be saved. So wars over how to understand and worship Him could break out? So that people could burn forever in hell-fire, or be detached from Him or whichever description of Hell you accept? So that children could be born with horrific birth defects or die at age 8 from a disease that He, as creator made?

The list is probably about as long as a person would care to take the time to compile.
 
I’m still wondering how you can be to blame if you’re the product of natural events…

It is certainly illogical to reallocate the blame to yourself for the reason I have just given. In fact evil is an illusion in a Godless universe. It is watered down to mere inconvenience and unpleasantness.
But you don’t believe that is the whole story because if you take at least 8 years “squarely on your own shoulders” it can’t be entirely a matter of bad luck…

My decisions relative to the natural world have largely determined my life. To me that is very straightforward.

What we see in a natural system would better be called competition than evil.

The eight years was my marriage. I chose to marry the women as she chose to marry me. It turned out badly because of us, the decisions we made and the lack of human productivity (mattered much more to my wife than me).
 
What we see in a natural system would better be called competition than evil.
It is called natural evil because it has the same negative consequences as moral evil.
The eight years was my marriage. I chose to marry the women as she chose to marry me. It turned out badly because of us, the decisions we made and the lack of human productivity (mattered much more to my wife than me).
If your decisions were made due to ignorance you are not to blame. You are only at fault when you know what is likely to happen - and then you can’t blame God!
 
No one has offered an answer, so I’m not the only one in the dark.

The why and whom are both important. If he’s only paying himself, it seems to be grandstanding to make it significant. If he can’t be reduced then there is nothing lacking and the need to ransom is an empty gesture.
The answer is that the universe is essentially teleological. We cannot make sense of the present without reference to the end. We are in the middle of the “story,” perhaps even going through a series of unfortunate events, but these must be viewed in light of the fact that complete meaning can only be had with reference to what is still to come, which is still unfolding. That is why faith and hope are virtues that must be exercised at this moment. The story is not over, it is in progress. To draw hasty conclusions at this juncture is to make serious presumptions about where things are at and what God is capable of.

It is like Churchill capitulating to the Nazi’s during the dark days of the war. Looked at from the point of view of reason and present circumstances, he could have drawn a conclusion that the situation was hopeless and the very act of his thinking it would have made it so. However, his thinking otherwise made the difference.

With regard to sacrifice as reparation, the sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament does not really make sense without reference to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Yet, the need for that sacrifice does not make complete sense without reference to the final purpose - the “end” which has yet to be revealed. That is the nature of “final causation,” in the Aristotelian sense.

Complete understanding of the nature of effects cannot be had without accounting for all four of the Aristotelian causes - formal, efficient, material and final. We don’t fully grasp the “why” without access to the final cause - the reason for which the sequence of caused events occurs. Since we are within the causal cycle moving towards the “end” we can’t apprehend the end until it comes about - then everything will make sense because the purpose “for which” the entire causal chain exists will have come about and by doing so provides light by which to make sense of the entire causal chain.

Our “scientific” world view presumes that a sufficient grasp of past or present events will allow control of future outcomes by replication. This perspective dogmatically denies teleology or final purpose for which the entire causal chain exists. That is a presumption that has apparent support in the “consistency” of natural processes, but “science” ignores completely the question of why at the same time as it moves forward under the impulse of “why” being answered implicitly at each step. “Why do we humans need to better understand the workings of nature?” For what end?

Try to answer that question in light of …
No one has offered an answer, so I’m not the only one in the dark.
Christianity admits being in the dark, but offers a promise of light at the end and light for the journey.

Science does not admit being in the dark, does not admit it has no idea where it is going, yet insists we must journey blindly to “somewhere” without stipulating whether that “somewhere” will be catastrophic, sublime or a profound waste of effort. We are too busy “getting there” without spending a moment considering precisely whether the “there” is worth the getting.

Suppose the “theory of everything” provides humans with complete knowledge and control of all the mechanisms controlling nature? What then? Who will then decide how that knowledge will be used and to what end?

If nature is simply the operation of blind forces, how will integrating blindness into knowledge move us forward? Seems a case of the blind willfully seeking to be led by blindness itself. Where will the “eyes to see” come from if nature itself is blind and we have consumed all our energies seeking vision where, from the beginning, we know it cannot be found?

You may want to read CS Lewis’ Abolition of Man or Walker Percy’s Lost in the Cosmos.
 
The answer is that the universe is essentially teleological. We cannot make sense of the present without reference to the end. We are in the middle of the “story,” perhaps even going through a series of unfortunate events, but these must be viewed in light of the fact that complete meaning can only be had with reference to what is still to come, which is still unfolding. That is why faith and hope are virtues that must be exercised at this moment. The story is not over, it is in progress. To draw hasty conclusions at this juncture is to make serious presumptions about where things are at and what God is capable of.

It is like Churchill capitulating to the Nazi’s during the dark days of the war. Looked at from the point of view of reason and present circumstances, he could have drawn a conclusion that the situation was hopeless and the very act of his thinking it would have made it so. However, his thinking otherwise made the difference.

With regard to sacrifice as reparation, the sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament does not really make sense without reference to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Yet, the need for that sacrifice does not make complete sense without reference to the final purpose - the “end” which has yet to be revealed. That is the nature of “final causation,” in the Aristotelian sense.

Complete understanding of the nature of effects cannot be had without accounting for all four of the Aristotelian causes - formal, efficient, material and final. We don’t fully grasp the “why” without access to the final cause - the reason for which the sequence of caused events occurs. Since we are within the causal cycle moving towards the “end” we can’t apprehend the end until it comes about - then everything will make sense because the purpose “for which” the entire causal chain exists will have come about and by doing so provides light by which to make sense of the entire causal chain.

Our “scientific” world view presumes that a sufficient grasp of past or present events will allow control of future outcomes by replication. This perspective dogmatically denies teleology or final purpose for which the entire causal chain exists. That is a presumption that has apparent support in the “consistency” of natural processes, but “science” ignores completely the question of why at the same time as it moves forward under the impulse of “why” being answered implicitly at each step. “Why do we humans need to better understand the workings of nature?” For what end?

Try to answer that question in light of …

Christianity admits being in the dark, but offers a promise of light at the end and light for the journey.

Science does not admit being in the dark, does not admit it has no idea where it is going, yet insists we must journey blindly to “somewhere” without stipulating whether that “somewhere” will be catastrophic, sublime or a profound waste of effort. We are too busy “getting there” without spending a moment considering precisely whether the “there” is worth the getting.

Suppose the “theory of everything” provides humans with complete knowledge and control of all the mechanisms controlling nature? What then? Who will then decide how that knowledge will be used and to what end?

If nature is simply the operation of blind forces, how will integrating blindness into knowledge move us forward? Seems a case of the blind willfully seeking to be led by blindness itself. Where will the “eyes to see” come from if nature itself is blind and we have consumed all our energies seeking vision where, from the beginning, we know it cannot be found?

You may want to read CS Lewis’ Abolition of Man or Walker Percy’s Lost in the Cosmos.
You lost me at Aristotle. His physics are abysmal I don’t know why we should lend credence to his metaphysics.
 
You lost me at Aristotle. His physics are abysmal I don’t know why we should lend credence to his metaphysics.
Your wholesale rejection of Aristotle reveals ignorance of his contribution to human knowledge:
Greek philosopher Aristotle can be considered the originator of a pro-reason, pro-this-world, pro-happiness
approach to philosophy. In other words, his philosophy – in terms of fundamentals – is the philosophy of Western culture.
Code:
        **Aristotle's system has been the springboard for every major human              achievement of the past 1,000 years.** Without his ideas, the development              of modern science, the Industrial Revolution as well as the creation              of the United States could not have occurred. People have achieved              unprecedented success using Aristotle's philosophy because, in its              essentials, **it is true** -- making his system an exceedingly              rare phenomenon in the history of thought. 
        
        Aristotle laid the foundation for [**reason**](http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/knowledge-reason.html)—that              is, for an explicit, consciously defined and objective method of acquiring              knowledge. In particular, he established the basic principles of **scientific              epistemology:** the role of the senses, the role of abstraction,              the laws of logic, the types of reasoning, the basic rules of validity              in deductive reasoning. 
        
        **Further, he established principles of a naturalistic, this-worldly              metaphysics: one reality, a world of particulars, of entities acting              in accordance with their natures, lawful, intelligible and graspable              by man.
        **
        In ethics, he laid the foundation for a this-worldly ethics, which              states that man's goal is to achieve personal [**happiness**](http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/knowledge-happiness.html)              and personal pride by using his intellectual ability to the fullest.
        
        His errors are many and include but are not limited to an inadequate              explanation of sense perception and the nature of the mind. In addition,              his doctrine of god, of teleology, of contingency, of prime matter,              of the golden mean, of contemplation as an end in itself, his politics,              his cosmology -- are all deficient.[1](http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/knowledge-philosophy.html#1)
        
        Aristotle's errors, however, were able to be corrected by later thinkers              largely through the use of Aristotle's scientific epistemology. In              other words, Aristotle's mistakes were often identified and rectified              because of the fundamentals of his own philosophy. **Further, it is              difficult to fault Aristotle for his errors given the relatively primitive              knowledge of his time and that he had to create his philosophy largely              from scratch, i.e., there was no rational philosophy that preceded              him from which he could build. 
        **
        Many individuals have made major contributions to the development              of Western culture. But it is Aristotle who, more than anyone, deserves              to be considered the **greatest hero of Western culture** because              the clear majority of the culture's characteristics ultimately stem              from his ideas. http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/aristotle.jpg
 
You lost me at Aristotle. His physics are abysmal I don’t know why we should lend credence to his metaphysics.
So because Roscoe gets lost at Aristotle, we should not trust Aristotle? :rotfl:

If you don’t grasp the idea of the four causes, how can you possibly be in a position to claim his physics are abysmal and his metaphysics should not even be considered?

Isn’t it necessary to understand a position before proclaiming it untenable or untrue? You admit that you don’t understand Aristotle at a basic level, yet it is that LACK of understanding that gives you the platform you need to dismiss the entirety of his work?

RIIIGGGHHHHTTT! 👍
 
His errors are many. Says it all.
Provide just a few examples.

The logic of “many errors” therefore “every idea wrong” also requires support.

We can, by the way, count the logic of “many errors” implying “says it all” as +1 in the error column for you.

Given the extent and depth of the topics Aristotle engaged with, “many errors” is a relative statement. In proportion to all of his contributions, “many” might be quite insignificant, so your claim is, in reality, a meaningless one.
 
So because Roscoe gets lost at Aristotle, we should not trust Aristotle? :rotfl:

If you don’t grasp the idea of the four causes, how can you possibly be in a position to claim his physics are abysmal and his metaphysics should not even be considered?

Isn’t it necessary to understand a position before proclaiming it untenable or untrue? You admit that you don’t understand Aristotle at a basic level, yet it is that LACK of understanding that gives you the platform you need to dismiss the entirety of his work?

RIIIGGGHHHHTTT! 👍
I understand it. I don’t agree with it, nor am I the only one. Neither does nature.
 
It’s very easy to criticise but to create so much from so little is incomparably more difficult…
His use of logic is laudable but he is easy to criticize because he’s wrong in his assumptions and conclusions.
 
His use of logic is laudable but he is easy to criticize because he’s wrong in his assumptions and conclusions.
Can you cite another person who did more to establish the foundations of modern science?
Aristotle has often been called the world’s greatest thinker. He tried to span the scope of knowledge as it existed in his time. He was a logician, aesthetician, biologist, ethical theorist and the administrator of an educational institution. He wrote dozens of works not only in philosophy but also in physics, biology, meteorology, psychology and politics. He also wrote a treatise in which he systematically dealt with the various mental processes of sensation, perception and memory. Will Durant in his ‘Story of Philosophy’ calls Aristotle “The Encyclopaedia Britannica of ancient Greece”. So powerful was the domination of his intellect that he is generally acknowledged to be the father of modern science…
darkside.hubpages.com/hub/aristotle
Though Aristotle’s work in zoology was not without errors, it was the grandest biological synthesis of the time, and remained the ultimate authority for many centuries after his death. His observations on the anatomy of octopus, cuttlefish, crustaceans
, and many other marine invertebrates are remarkably accurate, and could only have been made from first-hand experience with dissection. Aristotle described the embryological development of a chick; he distinguished whales and dolphins from fish; he described the chambered stomachs of ruminants and the social organization of bees; he noticed that some sharks give birth to live young – his books on animals are filled with such observations, some of which were not confirmed until many centuries later.
Aristotle’s classification of animals grouped together animals with similar characters into genera (used in a much broader sense than present-day biologists use the term) and then distinguished the species within the genera. He divided the animals into two types: those with blood, and those without blood (or at least without red blood). These distinctions correspond closely to our distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates. The blooded animals, corresponding to the vertebrates, included five genera: viviparous quadrupeds (mammals), birds, oviparous quadrupeds (reptiles and amphibians), fishes, and whales (which Aristotle did not realize were mammals). The bloodless animals were classified as cephalopods (such as the octopus); crustaceans; insects (which included the spiders, scorpions, and centipedes, in addition to what we now define as insects); shelled animals (such as most molluscs and echinoderms); and “zoophytes,” or “plant-animals,” which supposedly resembled plants in their form – such as most cnidarians.
Aristotle’s thoughts on earth sciences can be found in his treatise Meteorology – the word today means the study of weather, but Aristotle used the word in a much broader sense, covering, as he put it, “all the affections we may call common to air and water, and the kinds and parts of the earth and the affections of its parts.” Here he discusses the nature of the earth and the oceans. He worked out the hydrologic cycle: “Now the sun, moving as it does, sets up processes of change and becoming and decay, and by its agency the finest and sweetest water is every day carried up and is dissolved into vapour and rises to the upper region, where it is condensed again by the cold and so returns to the earth.” He discusses winds, earthquakes (which he thought were caused by underground winds), thunder, lightning, rainbows, and meteors, comets, and the Milky Way (which he thought were atmospheric phenomena). His model of Earth history contains some remarkably modern-sounding ideas:

The same parts of the earth are not always moist or dry, but they change according as rivers come into existence and dry up. And so the relation of land to sea changes too and a place does not always remain land or sea throughout all time, but where there was dry land there comes to be sea, and where there is now sea, there one day comes to be dry land. But we must suppose these changes to follow some order and cycle. The principle and cause of these changes is that the interior of the earth grows and decays, like the bodies of plants and animals. . . . But the whole vital process of the earth takes place so gradually and in periods of time which are so immense compared with the length of our life, that these changes are not observed, and before their course can be recorded from beginning to end whole nations perish and are destroyed. ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/aristotle.html

Your criticism is based on prejudice and hopelessly unjustified.
 
He’s wrong about almost everything in his physics. So I don’t credit him with modern science. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Lister, Pasteur, Darwin, Mendel etc all have made huge contributions to science. Aristotle did not.
This assessment of Aristotle is pure mimicry and misconception rather than a substantive one. By what criteria do you distinguish “huge” contributions from lesser ones? Do you make any allowance at all for patrimony? For the fact that without Aristotle, the others on your list may have had no collective “science” to contribute to? Your dismissal is just uninformed.

His physics were limited by the historical “accidents” of his birth but were not essentially wrong. In fact, much of what he reasoned from simple observation became key aspects of Newton’s and Einstein’s work.

From a physical chemist…
In spite of his limitations, Aristotle made some remarkable contributions to physics and laid the groundwork for Galileo, Newton, and Einstein. He reasoned that infinite velocities could not exist, that time and movement are continuous and inseparable, and that time was even flowing, infinite, and the same everywhere at once. These are all true and a part of Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Some consider that Aristotle’s greatest contribution to physics was his description of time.
 
He’s wrong about almost everything in his physics. So I don’t credit him with modern science. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Lister, Pasteur, Darwin, Mendel etc all have made huge contributions to science. Aristotle did not.
Your prejudice is still blatant.

Can you cite another person who did more to establish the foundations of modern science? Yes or no?
 
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