Connection between "leftist" economic policy and moral decline?

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I was wondering if my observations here are correct so let me just ask others, do you notice any correlations between economic policies (like land redistribution and income redistribution, etc) and moral decline (like a decrease in sexual mores)?

I do sometimes but I’m not sure if it is a real correlation or if I’m just seeing what I’m looking for.

Let me give you some of the most remarkable examples: Sparta which became markedly more homosexual and less family oriented (since the women and men were mostly separated) after Lycurgus both devalued the money, and destroyed all Spartan business markets (except for farming which had to be carried on by slaves).

Marxism which is against the idea of families and the idea of private property. It’s practical effects were much like those of Lycurgus’ laws such as the militarization of the people, the destruction of religious institutions, and a definite decline in the reality of family life (after all weren’t there wife and husband spies that informed on each other?). Russia and Mexico and Cuba both seemed to follow this Lacadaemonian script. Also, abortions or some type of kid-killing seems to be part and parcel of this type of political economy since it seems that only the strongest children should be raised in order to keep up the quality of the military and as Aristotle observed, a lawmaker that wants to regulate property must regulate population growth.

And now in America and Europe like effects are and have apparently occurred or are occurring (social justice entails reproductive rights and homosexual rights because the democratic party and social democratic parties connects the two).

There are definitely exceptions to this pattern but I think that they are exactly that, mere exceptions in a general pattern.

Anyone else come to this conclusion?
 
Well, some old school communists weren’t as gay friendly as today’s socialists.
 
Our moral decline started in the early '60s, when SCOTUS kicked God and prayer out of the public schools and let pornography in.
 
Our moral decline started in the early '60s, when SCOTUS kicked God and prayer out of the public schools and let pornography in.
Not to mention the pill, which led to the sexual revolution, which led to womens’ liberation, which let to abortion…

Whether I have the order correct or not, it’s unimportant. These do show that our society is veering way off to the secular left.

On the other hand, the “Right/Conservatives/Republicans” for whom I vote more so that the left have not done a whole lot better lately. In a two party system, I am more inclined to vote for them “hoping” they will do something about the economic and societal/moral decline (and let them disappoint me), whereas I am confident that the left will only take us farther down the wrong path.

Guess I am not too optimistic on these issues. Glad that there is a saving, loving God.
 
There is most certainly a correlation between the left and moral decline. The classic left is socialism and communism. At the extreme, these forms of government diminish or remove religion to impose total control over the governed. After all, you cannot have people walking around who determine right from wrong by consulting God, faith, and religion. The state must have total control.

When faith is diminished or eliminated from society, it is not possible to achieve moral perfection. The state and each individual’s passions determine what is right and wrong. Chaos erupts and there is no turning back.

God is allowing this to happen so we eventually get the rather obvious message. Society is perfected when the people choose God over the state.
 
Your question is a good one.

If you have time, I recommend that you seek out the best thinkers on this matter, thinkers coming from the pro-Capitalist/Free Market side of things and thinkers coming more from the pro-Progressivism/Social Justice side of things.

Along the way, if you haven’t already, I recommend that you really make it your business to really understand Catholic Social Doctrine (the body of official Catholic teachings related to universal principles and values about how economic systems and government systems should be set up). Here’s a good intro: skrason.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/the-conservative-weakness-and-the-solution-catholic-social-teaching/

I’m sure you’ve heard the theory help by many historians and social scientists that big, gruesome, no-hold-barred wars tend to result in periods of social liberalism following the war. They always cite the Roaring 20s and Weimar Republic, which followed World War One. These thinkers also cite the Sexual Revolution and Hippie period (1960s and 1970s) and try to say that this was really a consequence of World War Two, though this consequence was delayed for a decade or so because of all the fears early on in the Cold War.

Lots of people also say that the pointlessness and ultimate loss of the Vietnam War fueled all the vast sexual and moral changes in the 1960s and 1970s.

Some people who study the Hebrew Bible say that they see a recurring pattern: The Hebrew people would go through a difficult time and be moral and disciplined and organized and orderly in that time, because they had to in order to survive. But eventually they overcome whatever is threatening them, and they become “fat and happy.” The begin to accumulate wealth, and feel secure. That in turn leads to sexual adventures and family breakdown, and a general immorality. Eventually all this immorality lead to weakness which inevitable leads them back into some sort of grave danger. As things start to fall apart, a prophetic leader will bring them back to morality, discipline and group cohesion. Eventually they solve their problem, overcome the danger. And then the cycle just keeps playing out, over and over again.

Don’t we see this same cycle playing out in American and European history?

We had World War One, followed by the Roaring 20s, followed by the Great Depression, followed by World War Two, followed by the a post-war economic boom of the 50s, followed by the Social Revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s (free sex; gay rights; women’s rights; racial equality rights).

I think one legitimate view is that ANY economic or government system (socialism; capitalism; a democratic mixture of capitalism and socialism) that results in widespread economic security and physical safety will result in moral laxity. It is sad to say, but if people aren’t afraid, they won’t be moral. This goes for the rich, for the middle class, and for the lower working class and poor.

When people talk about a decline of morals, they are generally talking about this decline among the middle class and/or the lower working class and poor. They are hardly ever talking about the rich or the super rich. The truth that is shocking to many Americans is that the rich, as a group, are NEVER moral. Life among the rich is always one big bacchanalia. Don’t believe me. Read the histories and biographies of the royal families of Europe and of the tycoons of American history. Just pick one famous American family, the Kennedys of Massachusetts, and use them as a case study. You can’t blame socialism for the vast immorality and crime of Joseph Kennedy and his sons.

Nor can you blame socialism for the vast immorality and crimes of Italian organized crime "families."Nor can you blame socialism for the vast immorality and crimes among American settlers in the Old West during the period when it was the “wild west” (approx. 1865-1900).

There a whole loud and powerful movement political conservatives and libertarians who want to blame the progressivism of FDR’s New Deal and the progressivism of the 1960s/1970s for EVERYTHING that is wrong with America. They want to believe that the USA was a virtual Utopia before FDR was elected in 1933. I can tell you are too sophisticated to fall for this. It is so much more complicated that that. I am no fan of the “Sixties.” But we must ask: What really caused all that?

During the Cold War, the term “socialism” was hardly ever heard in the USA among the general public. Rather, the term “Communism” was used to refer to the USSR, PRC, North Vietnam, etc. Only in the last four years or so has there been an explosion of the term “socialism.” This is for a reason, I believe. I believe that they want to equate Social Security, Medicare, and Banking Regulations, Environmental Regulations, Antitrust Laws, Inheritance Tax Laws, Minimum Wage Laws, Health Insurance Laws, pro-Labor Union Laws, Food Stamps, College Student Aid, etc., with the sort of societies run by the dictatorships in the USSR and the PRC. Back when Communist Parties were powerful in the world, capitalists were eager to have wealth redistribution social programs for the lower working class and middle class as a means to prevent Communism in the USA. But now that Communism has been essentially vanquished everywhere, and Global Capitalism and Banking is dominant everywhere, they are now emboldened to declare all these social programs to be “unconstitutional,” “evil,” “socialism,” and “immorality promoting.”

Modern advances in scientific knowledge and technology are also changing economic,social and moral patterns in ways that are different from all of previous human history. This will probably continue, and the results may be different from what hardly anyone expects.

I will stop myself now. There many great books out there by honest, careful, objective historians and social scientists. Yes, read the “screed” books by partisans on both or all sides too, to see what they are saying. But unless you are content to be a tool of political manipulators, you go beyond the screaming, condemning politicos who are constantly on the radio and TV.

There are some very credible scholars out there who make the case that unregulated Capitalism is the greatest destroyer of morals and family values on the planet. Just think of all the novels of Charles Dickens, as one expression of that point of view.

Just please study both sides of this important question! And** judge all things by Catholic Social Doctrine**. Don’t let politicos of the angry Right or the angry Left make you limit your Catholicism. Be calm, be Catholic.

I’m sure you’ve noticed how the talking head politicos on the radio and TV almost NEVER say, “Well, according to Catholic Social Doctrine…” That point of view is never heard.

I can think of one great book by a fair, objective and thorough historian. The book is titled Eagles and Empire: The United States, Mexico, and the Struggle for a Continent (2009). The author is David Clary. It cover the period of American history from about 1820 to about 1850. It is very eye opening. But to me, the real value is what is shows about enduring traits (mostly bad ones, such as greed, deceit, lust, callousness, personal ambition, but also some good ones such as honor, honesty, decently, generosity, intelligence, fairness, tolerance) of human beings in all times, all places.
 
Well, some old school communists weren’t as gay friendly as today’s socialists.
True.

But under some conditions, the elimination of private property does seem to entail an increase in homosexuality.

I think that there are some reasons for this (1) w/o enough property people cannot financially afford to have sex that will lead to families and so they have gay sex. (2) w/o property the economy would collapse such that the only jobs are military ones. But if the military separates the men from the women then homosexuality could develop in those circumstances. Plus homosexuality could be used as a way for the whole state to be united in one homogenous “whole” (for military loyalty) or because there would be no more classes and ranks and so the state could more easily get everyone to marry everyone and thereby get everyone to love the community a la Plato.

So I’m just saying that sometimes, it seems that lack of property can be a cause of homosexuality.
 
Your question is a good one.

If you have time, I recommend that you seek out the best thinkers on this matter, thinkers coming from the pro-Capitalist/Free Market side of things and thinkers coming more from the pro-Progressivism/Social Justice side of things.

Along the way, if you haven’t already, I recommend that you really make it your business to really understand Catholic Social Doctrine (the body of official Catholic teachings related to universal principles and values about how economic systems and government systems should be set up). Here’s a good intro: skrason.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/the-conservative-weakness-and-the-solution-catholic-social-teaching/

I’m sure you’ve heard the theory help by many historians and social scientists that big, gruesome, no-hold-barred wars tend to result in periods of social liberalism following the war. They always cite the Roaring 20s and Weimar Republic, which followed World War One. These thinkers also cite the Sexual Revolution and Hippie period (1960s and 1970s) and try to say that this was really a consequence of World War Two, though this consequence was delayed for a decade or so because of all the fears early on in the Cold War.

Lots of people also say that the pointlessness and ultimate loss of the Vietnam War fueled all the vast sexual and moral changes in the 1960s and 1970s.

Some people who study the Hebrew Bible say that they see a recurring pattern: The Hebrew people would go through a difficult time and be moral and disciplined and organized and orderly in that time, because they had to in order to survive. But eventually they overcome whatever is threatening them, and they become “fat and happy.” The begin to accumulate wealth, and feel secure. That in turn leads to sexual adventures and family breakdown, and a general immorality. Eventually all this immorality lead to weakness which inevitable leads them back into some sort of grave danger. As things start to fall apart, a prophetic leader will bring them back to morality, discipline and group cohesion. Eventually they solve their problem, overcome the danger. And then the cycle just keeps playing out, over and over again.

Don’t we see this same cycle playing out in American and European history?

We had World War One, followed by the Roaring 20s, followed by the Great Depression, followed by World War Two, followed by the a post-war economic boom of the 50s, followed by the Social Revolutions of the 1960s and 1970s (free sex; gay rights; women’s rights; racial equality rights).

I think one legitimate view is that ANY economic or government system (socialism; capitalism; a democratic mixture of capitalism and socialism) that results in widespread economic security and physical safety will result in moral laxity. It is sad to say, but if people aren’t afraid, they won’t be moral. This goes for the rich, for the middle class, and for the lower working class and poor.

When people talk about a decline of morals, they are generally talking about this decline among the middle class and/or the lower working class and poor. They are hardly ever talking about the rich or the super rich. The truth that is shocking to many Americans is that the rich, as a group, are NEVER moral. Life among the rich is always one big bacchanalia. Don’t believe me. Read the histories and biographies of the royal families of Europe and of the tycoons of American history. Just pick one famous American family, the Kennedys of Massachusetts, and use them as a case study. You can’t blame socialism for the vast immorality and crime of Joseph Kennedy and his sons.

Nor can you blame socialism for the vast immorality and crimes of Italian organized crime "families."Nor can you blame socialism for the vast immorality and crimes among American settlers in the Old West during the period when it was the “wild west” (approx. 1865-1900).

There a whole loud and powerful movement political conservatives and libertarians who want to blame the progressivism of FDR’s New Deal and the progressivism of the 1960s/1970s for EVERYTHING that is wrong with America. They want to believe that the USA was a virtual Utopia before FDR was elected in 1933. I can tell you are too sophisticated to fall for this. It is so much more complicated that that. I am no fan of the “Sixties.” But we must ask: What really caused all that?

During the Cold War, the term “socialism” was hardly ever heard in the USA among the general public. Rather, the term “Communism” was used to refer to the USSR, PRC, North Vietnam, etc. Only in the last four years or so has there been an explosion of the term “socialism.” This is for a reason, I believe. I believe that they want to equate Social Security, Medicare, and Banking Regulations, Environmental Regulations, Antitrust Laws, Inheritance Tax Laws, Minimum Wage Laws, Health Insurance Laws, pro-Labor Union Laws, Food Stamps, College Student Aid, etc., with the sort of societies run by the dictatorships in the USSR and the PRC. Back when Communist Parties were powerful in the world, capitalists were eager to have wealth redistribution social programs for the lower working class and middle class as a means to prevent Communism in the USA. But now that Communism has been essentially vanquished everywhere, and Global Capitalism and Banking is dominant everywhere, they are now emboldened to declare all these social programs to be “unconstitutional,” “evil,” “socialism,” and “immorality promoting.”

Modern advances in scientific knowledge and technology are also changing economic,social and moral patterns in ways that are different from all of previous human history. This will probably continue, and the results may be different from what hardly anyone expects.

I will stop myself now. There many great books out there by honest, careful, objective historians and social scientists. Yes, read the “screed” books by partisans on both or all sides too, to see what they are saying. But unless you are content to be a tool of political manipulators, you go beyond the screaming, condemning politicos who are constantly on the radio and TV.

There are some very credible scholars out there who make the case that unregulated Capitalism is the greatest destroyer of morals and family values on the planet. Just think of all the novels of Charles Dickens, as one expression of that point of view.

Just please study both sides of this important question!

I can think of one great book by a fair, objective and thorough historian. The book is titled Eagles and Empire: The United States, Mexico, and the Struggle for a Continent (2009). The author is David Clary. It cover the period of American history from about 1820 to about 1850. It is very eye opening. But to me, the real value is what is shows about enduring traits (mostly bad ones, such as greed, deceit, lust, callousness, personal ambition, but also some good ones such as honor, honesty, decently, generosity, intelligence, fairness, tolerance) of human beings in all times, all places.
I’m not saying that just because “leftist” economics leads to immorality that the rich are moral exemplars (personally I think that wealthy men tend to be too into “new age” stuff like freemasonry, astrology, communism, etc.).

But I am saying that I’ve never seen “rightist” economic policy lead to immorality if the policy was not itself immoral. For instance, if someone were to slash the minimum wage and people really did need that price ceiling then that would be immoral but it’s not as if it leads to immorality as much as it is itself immoral.

But if someone slashed minimum wages and everything was fine, then that policy wouldn’t generally lead to immorality, at least I’ve never seen any case where it happened.

That brings me to your example of what happens when there is too much wealth. Actually, that is a case of pro-property policy which lead to immorality but the causal chain is so obvious that I don’t think that it stands out as much. If anything I’ve always associated “rightist” economics with morality: less minimum wages means more employment (especially for under-skilled workers like blacks and etc.) while the natural inefficiencies of childbirth makes women less marketable workers leading to the ideal family structure. Less devaluation of the currency allows people to have more purchasing power and lower tariffs allow our economy to specialize in things like agriculture relative to other countries who can now supply us with steal and raw materials.

You also said something interesting about war and the immoral effects that it can have. I heartily agree also. Wars have been known to toughen a country but I think that in recent times, wars just tend to cause enough uncertainty and risk in life that people don’t toughen and simply seek out more pleasures as compensation. They forget though that toughness can be its own pleasure too, but I think that policymakers should be more mindful of getting involved in huge wars which will only demoralize more people. In that sense, I’m kind of an “America First-er”.
 
I was wondering if my observations here are correct so let me just ask others, do you notice any correlations between economic policies (like land redistribution and income redistribution, etc) and moral decline (like a decrease in sexual mores)?

I do sometimes but I’m not sure if it is a real correlation or if I’m just seeing what I’m looking for.

Let me give you some of the most remarkable examples: Sparta which became markedly more homosexual and less family oriented (since the women and men were mostly separated) after Lycurgus both devalued the money, and destroyed all Spartan business markets (except for farming which had to be carried on by slaves).

Marxism which is against the idea of families and the idea of private property. It’s practical effects were much like those of Lycurgus’ laws such as the militarization of the people, the destruction of religious institutions, and a definite decline in the reality of family life (after all weren’t there wife and husband spies that informed on each other?). Russia and Mexico and Cuba both seemed to follow this Lacadaemonian script. Also, abortions or some type of kid-killing seems to be part and parcel of this type of political economy since it seems that only the strongest children should be raised in order to keep up the quality of the military and as Aristotle observed, a lawmaker that wants to regulate property must regulate population growth.

And now in America and Europe like effects are and have apparently occurred or are occurring (social justice entails reproductive rights and homosexual rights because the democratic party and social democratic parties connects the two).

There are definitely exceptions to this pattern but I think that they are exactly that, mere exceptions in a general pattern.

Anyone else come to this conclusion?
Yes, there is a very high degree of correlation! God gave Adam the garden of Eden (private property). The left attacks private property which is the source of our economic and political freedom.

Economic freedom is a requirement for political freedom. Economic freedom enables people to cooperate with one another without coercion or central direction. ** Economic Freedom reduces the area over which political power is exercised.** Therefore, the left wants nothing to do with private propery.

The left does the will of Satan, not God. The left has been building a world without God for a long time. They took prayer out of schools in 1963 and the quality of education has been going down ever since. They also supported abortions in the 1970s. In many ways the left has replaced God with the government state. The results are easily seen by anyone. Yesterday the Supreme Court upheld an unjust law.
 
I was wondering if my observations here are correct so let me just ask others, do you notice any correlations between economic policies (like land redistribution and income redistribution, etc) and moral decline (like a decrease in sexual mores)?

… etc.
What we are seeing is the change of focus in our lives from God and family to self. Here is an exchange between bloggers Mark D. and LA that illustrates this point:

Mark D. writes:

May I suggest that, grounded in liberal anthropology, anarcho-tyranny is perfectly consistent, and in fact required. Therefore, the facts as reported by Mr. Dalrymple make perfect sense.

Liberal anthropology is derived from Nietzsche: it affirms the sovereignty of the individual will, that the individual human will is the highest and best value, and asserts that the individual will is the arbiter of all value. Within society, all individual human wills are considered of equal value, validity, and worth, and there is no principle [e.g., God] by which to discern among them. Society is then a contest of a will to power, of asserting one’s preferences over those of others.

On the “anarcho” side this translates into affirmation of the individual human will over such traditional values as private property, public order, and even human life. If a crime of violence is committed, a conviction may be sustained, but a long incarceration is viewed with suspicion, as the imposition of a collective will over and above the highest good – the individual will that committed the crime. It is not legitimate within a liberal community to assert the communal will over against an individual human will (unless, of course, that individual human will contests the über principle of liberalism itself).

On the “tyranny” side, it is obvious that the preferences of individual human wills are sacrosanct, such as sexual orientation, lifestyle, dissent, and so forth. Any speech, thought, or action that threatens a protected preference is therefore punished with the utmost severity as a direct threat to the ultimate good – the individual human will (which is above critique). And because the individual human will is the source of all goodness, it cannot be relativized by any “status,” particularly status within a religious or ethnic minority. Those wills in the majority therefore must be restrained, and those wills in the minority must be protected, so that a principle of absolute equality is maintained. In fact, within a liberal society, the fiction is maintained that there is no majority at all, and if a majority is invoked this claim is condemned, marginalized, or ignored. Liberal communities have no legitimate majorities. Liberal communities are merely a collection of individual human wills.

LA replies:

This sounds to me more like a liberal adaptation of Nietzsche to postmodern individualism, than Nietzsche himself, since Nietzsche emphasized the absence of truth and the struggle of will to power in terms of autonomous cultures more than in terms of individuals. While the postmodern liberal Nietzscheanism that Mark D. describes may be derived from Nietzsche’s ideas, it is also different in key respects. I don’t think Nietzsche ever imagined a social order that enforced an equality of the value of all wills. That is pure liberalism, not Nietzscheanism. In fact, I’m not sure if it’s even useful to discuss liberalism in terms of Nietzsche.

Mark D. writes:

I just have one postscript. In liberal society, human life is NOT sacrosanct; the human will is sacrosanct. Abortion policy is the perfect expression of this principle.

LA reply:

Very interesting. Human life is something “outside” the self, a “transcendent,” as it were. Since only the immanent self and its desires have value, without reference to anything outside the self, life does not have value.

This relates to what I said yesterday about Desperate Housewives. All they experience is the willing self, not the goodness of life and the truth of existence, which are beyond the self.

LA continues:

Also, Mark D. said: “Liberal communities have no legitimate majorities. Liberal communities are merely a collection of individual human wills.” He points out to me in an e-mail that this means that “in liberal societies, two principles we take for granted NO LONGER apply: (1) consent of the governed, and (2) rule by majority.”

This is profoundly troubling, and obviously true. It’s just a further application of our understanding that since liberalism says that only the individual and his desires matter, liberalism denies the legitimacy of the nation and its majority culture. But now we see that liberalism also denies the legitimacy of political majorities as well as of cultural majorities. Or, as Mark continues: “A majority party can rule so long as it affirms there is no majority. This is [Tony] Blair’s England.”

And thus we arrive at the modern bureaucratic state, the ideal of which is the EU, and the current leading examples of which are Britain and France. Since only the individual and his will matter, and all individual wills are of equal value, no majority of individual wills can be allowed to force its will on any minority of individual wills. Therefore the society cannot be ruled on the basis of the consent of the majority, also known as the consent of the governed. The society must be run by a non-elected instrumentality (e.g., the courts) that is independent of the governed, in order to protect the equality of all individual wills.
 
I’m not saying that just because “leftist” economics leads to immorality that the rich are moral exemplars (personally I think that wealthy men tend to be too into “new age” stuff like freemasonry, astrology, communism, etc.).
Yes, there are some “weird” people among the rich. But when I read biographies of the royal families of Europe and the tycoons and millionaires and billionaires of the USA what I mostly see is men and women who care only about money and pleasure, who regard all religion and political activism to be stupid and irrelevant except insofar as it helps them secure and advance their wealth and leisure, or to the extent that the religion or political activism of other people threatens their wealth and leisure. Most of the really rich are atheists, hedonists and amoralists at heart, though many feign religious belief for its strategic value. There ARE exceptions to be sure, such as King Louis IX, the French loyal who was canonized as a saint, and after whom the City of St. Louis was named.
That brings me to your example of what happens when there is too much wealth. Actually, that is a case of pro-property policy which lead to immorality but the causal chain is so obvious that I don’t think that it stands out as much. If anything I’ve always associated “rightist” economics with morality: less minimum wages means more employment (especially for under-skilled workers like blacks and etc.) while the natural inefficiencies of childbirth makes women less marketable workers leading to the ideal family structure. Less devaluation of the currency allows people to have more purchasing power and lower tariffs allow our economy to specialize in things like agriculture relative to other countries who can now supply us with steal and raw materials.
You like to study history. So think of it this way. Before FDR’s new deal, there were no minimum wage laws in the USA, and virtually no governmental social safety net programs at all. So, we can draw a line in history at the election of FDR in 1933.

Now think about how moral Americans were from 1776 to 1933. Were they actually more moral than Americans after 1933? Or less moral? Or no different?

To really answer that question, a person would really have to study history. It is a BIG question.

But there are some facts that might make us conclude that American were MORE immoral before there was any “socialism” in American (which started in 1933, they say).

For example, in the period of 1776 to 1865, many American go rich by savagely beating other human beings into working for them for no salary. The system of slavery only works if slaves get savage, bloody beatings every so often. People don’t like doing grueling work for no money in order to make other rich. Twelve of our U.S. presidents go very rich by beating human beings into working for them for free.

Then there was how the U.S. government and state governments repeatedly broke the treaties they made with Native Americans. The most famous case is the Cherokee Removal of the late 1830s. The Cherokees sued, and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Cherokees could not be forcibly removed, due to treaties that the U.S. government and the State of Georgia made with the Cherokees. But the State of Georgia removed them in defiance of the Court’s ruling, and President Jackson, who had the power to intervene, refused to do so. He favored the Cherokee removal. Thousands of women and children died in the forced march from Georgia to Oklahoma. A few Americans cared and protested, but most did not care.

And listen to this! One of the biggest problems that General Washington had during the Revolutionary War was his soldiers having sex with prostitutes! I’ve read about this in books, but here it is from Wikipedia:

*The abundance of prostitutes in New York City—an estimated at 500 women plying “their trade” in 1776[5]—was particularly distressing for many of the Continental soldiers of a puritan-bent, George Washington included. From Lieutenant Isaac Bangs of Massachusetts comes one of the most complete accounts of prostitution in revolutionary America; he had a medical degree from Harvard, and took it upon himself to tour the brothel district to inspect the health conditions of the neighborhood and investigate the seedy side of the city that so worried General Washington. He was absolutely appalled by the women of the bawdy houses, who, he thought, “nothing could exceed them in impudence and immodesty,” but “the more I became acquainted with them, the more they excelled in their brutality.”[5]

April 22, barely a week after the Continentals arrived in the city, two soldiers were found dead hidden in a bordello, one corpse “castrated in a barbarous manner,” Bangs reported. Soldiers went on a rampage in the brothel district “in furious retaliation.” General Washington condemned all such “riotous behavior” and ordered military patrols in the district, a strict curfew, and other restrictions.[6] General Washington understood the crucial strategic importance of New York and its waterways to the war effort, but “…had seen enough of New York on prior visits to dislike and distrust the city as the most sinful place in America, a not uncommon view.”*

Now, since brutal exploitation of people by slavery, and the treacherous breaking of treaties with Native Americans, and the rampant use of prostitution in New York City by George Washington’s soldiers all occurred prior to 1933, prior to the Minimum Wage, prior to “socialism” in America, can we blame “socialism” (better termed “New Deal”-ism, perhaps) for any of these terribly immoral things?

And many more examples could be given.

Before concluding that “left” or “right” economic policies give rise to gay marriage or abortion, think a little more. See what is really going on. See if maybe Americans in general have been vastly immoral during MOST of the history of the USA.

See if there is any religious difference. Early in USA history, there were few Catholics. Later, many Catholics came. Were the Catholics more moral than the Protestants, in general.

And how do we account for the fact that Catholics have abortions and divorces at the same rate as all other Americans? How do we account for the fact that Orthodox Jews have the lowest abortion rate and the lowest divorce rate in the USA? Are Orthodox Jews somehow unaffected by the bad influence of “left” economic policies in a way that Catholics are not?

Time to think.

Hope that was of some use to you. I meant for it to be. If it was, thank God. If it wasn’t pity me.

Best wishes.
 
Yes, there is a very high degree of correlation! God gave Adam the garden of Eden (private property). The left attacks private property which is the source of our economic and political freedom.

Economic freedom is a requirement for political freedom. Economic freedom enables people to cooperate with one another without coercion or central direction. ** Economic Freedom reduces the area over which political power is exercised.** Therefore, the left wants nothing to do with private propery.

The left does the will of Satan, not God. The left has been building a world without God for a long time. They took prayer out of schools in 1963 and the quality of education has been going down ever since. They also supported abortions in the 1970s. In many ways the left has replaced God with the government state. The results are easily seen by anyone. Yesterday the Supreme Court upheld an unjust law.
Great post!
 
Would it be fair to say the left worships the state, while the right wants to preserve freedom and liberty?
 
Yes, there are some “weird” people among the rich. But when I read biographies of the royal families of Europe and the tycoons and millionaires and billionaires of the USA what I mostly see is men and women who care only about money and pleasure, who regard all religion and political activism to be stupid and irrelevant except insofar as it helps them secure and advance their wealth and leisure, or to the extent that the religion or political activism of other people threatens their wealth and leisure. Most of the really rich are atheists, hedonists and amoralists at heart, though many feign religious belief for its strategic value. There ARE exceptions to be sure, such as King Louis IX, the French loyal who was canonized as a saint, and after whom the City of St. Louis was named.

You like to study history. So think of it this way. Before FDR’s new deal, there were no minimum wage laws in the USA, and virtually no governmental social safety net programs at all. So, we can draw a line in history at the election of FDR in 1933.

Now think about how moral Americans were from 1776 to 1933. Were they actually more moral than Americans after 1933? Or less moral? Or no different?

To really answer that question, a person would really have to study history. It is a BIG question.

But there are some facts that might make us conclude that American were MORE immoral before there was any “socialism” in American (which started in 1933, they say).

For example, in the period of 1776 to 1865, many American go rich by savagely beating other human beings into working for them for no salary. The system of slavery only works if slaves get savage, bloody beatings every so often. People don’t like doing grueling work for no money in order to make other rich. Twelve of our U.S. presidents go very rich by beating human beings into working for them for free.

Then there was how the U.S. government and state governments repeatedly broke the treaties they made with Native Americans. The most famous case is the Cherokee Removal of the late 1830s. The Cherokees sued, and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Cherokees could not be forcibly removed, due to treaties that the U.S. government and the State of Georgia made with the Cherokees. But the State of Georgia removed them in defiance of the Court’s ruling, and President Jackson, who had the power to intervene, refused to do so. He favored the Cherokee removal. Thousands of women and children died in the forced march from Georgia to Oklahoma. A few Americans cared and protested, but most did not care.

And listen to this! One of the biggest problems that General Washington had during the Revolutionary War was his soldiers having sex with prostitutes! I’ve read about this in books, but here it is from Wikipedia:

*The abundance of prostitutes in New York City—an estimated at 500 women plying “their trade” in 1776[5]—was particularly distressing for many of the Continental soldiers of a puritan-bent, George Washington included. From Lieutenant Isaac Bangs of Massachusetts comes one of the most complete accounts of prostitution in revolutionary America; he had a medical degree from Harvard, and took it upon himself to tour the brothel district to inspect the health conditions of the neighborhood and investigate the seedy side of the city that so worried General Washington. He was absolutely appalled by the women of the bawdy houses, who, he thought, “nothing could exceed them in impudence and immodesty,” but “the more I became acquainted with them, the more they excelled in their brutality.”[5]

April 22, barely a week after the Continentals arrived in the city, two soldiers were found dead hidden in a bordello, one corpse “castrated in a barbarous manner,” Bangs reported. Soldiers went on a rampage in the brothel district “in furious retaliation.” General Washington condemned all such “riotous behavior” and ordered military patrols in the district, a strict curfew, and other restrictions.[6] General Washington understood the crucial strategic importance of New York and its waterways to the war effort, but “…had seen enough of New York on prior visits to dislike and distrust the city as the most sinful place in America, a not uncommon view.”*

Now, since brutal exploitation of people by slavery, and the treacherous breaking of treaties with Native Americans, and the rampant use of prostitution in New York City by George Washington’s soldiers all occurred prior to 1933, prior to the Minimum Wage, prior to “socialism” in America, can we blame “socialism” (better termed “New Deal”-ism, perhaps) for any of these terribly immoral things?

And many more examples could be given.

Before concluding that “left” or “right” economic policies give rise to gay marriage or abortion, think a little more. See what is really going on. See if maybe Americans in general have been vastly immoral during MOST of the history of the USA.

See if there is any religious difference. Early in USA history, there were few Catholics. Later, many Catholics came. Were the Catholics more moral than the Protestants, in general.

And how do we account for the fact that Catholics have abortions and divorces at the same rate as all other Americans? How do we account for the fact that Orthodox Jews have the lowest abortion rate and the lowest divorce rate in the USA? Are Orthodox Jews somehow unaffected by the bad influence of “left” economic policies in a way that Catholics are not?

Time to think.

Hope that was of some use to you. I meant for it to be. If it was, thank God. If it wasn’t pity me.

Best wishes.
I generically agree with what you say but I don’t think that the immorality of the past (illicit sex, murder, etc.) was as bad as it is today. Even slavery wasn’t as bad as the things which we see around us (it’s not even intrinsically evil). Indeed, did you know that slaves were pretty well fed and clothed even to the standards of average colonial free-men? And the death of the Indians? At most it was 20,000,000 dead men, women and children over 2-4 hundred years. Today we kill 14,000,000 babies in 30 years.

But I think that in some ways we were good and in other bad, so that in many things we are basically even.
 
The minimum wage comes from the Socialist platform of 1928. It was later adopted by President FDR.

The minimum wage causes unemployment among unskilled workers and teenagers. There is over 50 years of solid economic research to support this statement.

I was willing to hire young and unskilled workers; however it was illegal to pay them what they were worth in the marketplace. The government makes it illegal to pay wages that are below the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a floor on wages that causes a surplus of young and unskilled workers if the minimum wage is above what employers are willing to pay (the equilibrium wage). Why should I hire unskilled and teenage workers when I can hire skilled and older workers for the same minimum wage?
 
I was wondering if my observations here are correct so let me just ask others, do you notice any correlations between economic policies (like land redistribution and income redistribution, etc) and moral decline (like a decrease in sexual mores)?

I do sometimes but I’m not sure if it is a real correlation or if I’m just seeing what I’m looking for.

Let me give you some of the most remarkable examples: Sparta which became markedly more homosexual and less family oriented (since the women and men were mostly separated) after Lycurgus both devalued the money, and destroyed all Spartan business markets (except for farming which had to be carried on by slaves).

Marxism which is against the idea of families and the idea of private property. It’s practical effects were much like those of Lycurgus’ laws such as the militarization of the people, the destruction of religious institutions, and a definite decline in the reality of family life (after all weren’t there wife and husband spies that informed on each other?). Russia and Mexico and Cuba both seemed to follow this Lacadaemonian script. Also, abortions or some type of kid-killing seems to be part and parcel of this type of political economy since it seems that only the strongest children should be raised in order to keep up the quality of the military and as Aristotle observed, a lawmaker that wants to regulate property must regulate population growth.

And now in America and Europe like effects are and have apparently occurred or are occurring (social justice entails reproductive rights and homosexual rights because the democratic party and social democratic parties connects the two).

There are definitely exceptions to this pattern but I think that they are exactly that, mere exceptions in a general pattern.

Anyone else come to this conclusion?
God is not a democracy.

If the bible Gods word advise an abomination to a certain lifestyle then one should heed.

At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to the simple.

Its the wise that think they know better than Gods word.
 
*The Left has seized on our economic troubles as an excuse to “blame the rich guy” and paint a picture of capitalism and the free market as selfish, greedy, and cruel. Certain Congressmen and “Occupy” protesters across the country assert that the free market is not only unforgiving, it’s morally corrupt. According to the administration it is only by allowing the government to heavily control and regulate business and by redistributing the wealth can we ensure fairness and compassion.

Exactly the opposite is true, says Father Robert A. Sirico in his thought–provoking new book, The Moral Case for a Free Economy. Father Sirico argues that a free economy actually promotes charity, selflessness, and kindness. And in The Moral Case for a Free Economy, he shows why free-market capitalism is not only the best way to ensure individual success and national prosperity but is also the surest route to a moral and socially–just society. In The Moral Case for a Free Economy, Father Sirico shows:Why we can’t have freedom without a free economy and why the best way to help the poor is to a start a businessWhy charity works—but welfare doesn’tHow Father Sirico himself converted from being a leftist colleague of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden to recognizing the merits of a free economyIn this heated presidential election year, the Left will argue that capitalism may produce winners, but it is cruel and unfair. But as Sirico proves in The Moral Case for a Free Economy, capitalism does not simply provide opportunity for material success, but it ensures a more ethical and moral society as well.*
 
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