Connection between love and sex?

[fred_conty]

What is the philosophy behind this? I cannot see any philosophical way of connecting these two. I obviously do think that there is a connection. But I don’t know what to make of it. This of course relates to why sex outside of marriage is wrong, why hook ups are wrong. etc.

Any papers on this topic or threads or new thoughts?

There is a story of a marriage counsuler appointed by the state to investigate divorce
court cases to determine if the marriage can be salvaged before bringing it to divorce court.
In one case, he said that he had a private session with the wife. His comment was
that she was one of the most beautiful women he had ever seen. After his session
with her, he interviewed the husband. And one of the first comments out of his mouth
was “I know you think I am a complete idiot for divorcing such a gorgeous woman.
But you ought to hear what comes out of her mouth.”

Sex is a not a connection but a continuation.

 

[tonyrey]

There is a story of a marriage counsuler appointed by the state to investigate divorce
court cases to determine if the marriage can be salvaged before bringing it to divorce court.
In one case, he said that he had a private session with the wife. His comment was
that she was one of the most beautiful women he had ever seen. After his session
with her, he interviewed the husband. And one of the first comments out of his mouth
was “I know you think I am a complete idiot for divorcing such a gorgeous woman.
But you ought to hear what comes out of her mouth.”

Sex is not a connection but a continuation.

Your point is made by St Paul in his letter to the Ephesians:

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

 

[tonyrey]

Love and sex can be diametrically opposed. Sometimes a married man or woman becomes infatuated and is miserable without a lover. The spouse has to decide whether to tolerate infidelity or to insist on separation. Some people turn a blind eye hoping the affair will be short-lived. They may be fortunate but sometimes they have to face the reality of having a permanent rival and whether to tolerate the situation.

In these situations the victims are prepared to suffer rather than lose the person they love. They are justified in choosing to live apart but they sacrifice themselves for the sake of their marriage - and very often the children. The unfaithful spouse and the lover are prepared to sacrifice the victim on the altar of their love. They may be genuinely devoted to each other and feel that life is meaningless if they never see each other. One or both of them may even suffer because of a sense of guilt.

One thing is certain. There is no doubt who suffers most and who is capable of the greatest love. That may be no consolation here and now but it will be in the long run. It is more blessed to give than receive: the more attached we are to ourselves the less love we have for others - and less joy…

 

[tonyrey]

“I cannot see any philosophical way of connecting these two. I obviously do think that there is a connection.”

The connection is that we are persons rather than animals whose lives are wonderful and valuable but ruled by instinct. Their love is limited to those with whom they come into contact. Their primary purpose is to live, survive, mate and care for their young. They are not morally responsible for any suffering they cause and - unlike human beings - they rarely cause unnecessary suffering. We are responsible even for the suffering of those we have never met if we can do something to alleviate it. Our love has no limits except the ones we impose on ourselves together with our physical limitations. That is another sign that we are made in the image of God…

Everything is transformed by love and sex is no exception. Yet it is a mistake to think it is the highest expression of love. It is not the giving of our body that counts most but the giving of our self. We can show far greater love for others by caring for them and helping them to overcome their problems. Sex can be the antithesis of love and turned into a curse rather than a blessing. Many crimes of passion are due to jealousy and unrequited love. In extreme cases children have been neglected, kidnapped or even killed while their parents were giving way to their physical desire for each other - or some one else.

It is impossible to love another person too much** if** that love is reasonable. The wisdom of Christ’s teaching is that we should love others - including our enemies (!) - **as **we love ourselves because we are all equal in the sight of God. This may seem a physical impossibility but it is not intended to apply not only to corporal but also spiritual works of mercy. We have always been able to pray for them but now we can instruct, counsel, admonish and comfort people all over the world without moving from our chair! Science and technology are transformed by love…

 

[tonyrey]

In a recent book “Premarital Sex in America” two sociologists conclude that there is a significant correlation between sexual restraint and emotional well-being, between monogamy and happiness — and between promiscuity and depression.

"Among the young people Regnerus and Uecker studied, the happiest women were those with a current sexual partner and only one or two partners in their lifetime. Virgins were almost as happy, though not quite, and then a young woman’s likelihood of depression rose steadily as her number of partners climbed and the present stability of her sex life diminished. "

nytimes.com/2011/03/07/opinion/07douthat.html?_r=4

"In Chapter Five, “No Strings Attached? Sex and Emotional Health,” Regnerus and Uecker offer convincing data and a cogent analysis of how sex, break-ups, abuse, and abortion affect men and women emotionally. The bottom line: women are much more likely than men to experience diminished emotional health because of their past sexual relationships.

**Further, the more “lifetime partners” a woman has, the more likely she is to be depressed and show signs of poor emotional health."

**mercatornet.com/articles/view/couple_de-couple_repeat/

“The point isn’t that we should aspire to some Arcadia of perfect chastity. Rather, it’s that a high sexual ideal can shape how quickly and casually people pair off, even when they aren’t living up to its exacting demands. The ultimate goal is a sexual culture that makes it easier for young people to achieve romantic happiness — by encouraging them to wait a little longer, choose more carefully and judge their sex lives against **a strong moral standard.”

**zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/the-importance-of-monogamy/

 

[tonyrey]

Romantic love is often unrealistic but it need not be. It is a recognition of the wonder, value and beauty of a personal relationship based on admiration, physical attraction and mutual understanding. It gives meaning to a life which otherwise lacks continuity and a sense of belonging which compensates for our interior solitude. We are not created to be alone unless we have a vocation to serve God in a way which prevents us from being married.

The knights of old were prepared to endure hardships and long periods of separation from their ladies because it gave them the opportunity to demonstrate their courage, loyalty and dedication. They believed sacrifice is a part of the essence of true love and they were prepared to die rather than fail to live up to their ideals. For them the pursuit of perfection was far more important than the pursuit of pleasure. They were prepared to wait indefinitely provided they knew their love was reciprocated. Even death did not put an end to their hopes of being finally united with the beloved because they believed heaven is our ultimate destination.

All this seems folly to many people in our secular society. Yet “by their fruits you shall know them”. The knights were extremists but they were inspired by the teaching of Jesus. They were noble in a way that is rare today when material success is widely regarded as more important than moral integrity. Most people are not prepared to wait for more than a few months to demonstrate that their love is genuinely unselfish and not dominated by physical desire. They fail the greatest test of all human worth: the test of time.

Patience is one of the most underrated virtues but in reality it is one of the most important. The mania for speed and instant results has undermined the need for endurance and perseverance in spite of difficulties. In the Devil’s Dictionary patience is defined as “a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue”! Nothing could be further from the truth. The highest form of love is patient in the original sense of the word: it has the quality of suffering. Few things that are attained easily are worth having. Love certainly doesn’t fall into that category because it requires faith, hope and self-sacrifice…

 

[razredge]

I agree that polygamy should be allowed - after all if gay marriage is legal, why shouldn’t polygamy - it’s a lot more normal and culturally prevalent than homosexuality

 

[tonyrey]

I agree that polygamy should be allowed - after all if gay marriage is legal, why shouldn’t polygamy - it’s a lot more normal and culturally prevalent than homosexuality

You imply that I have encouraged polygamy - which is not the case because it rejects the principle of equality. (Unless you’re thinking of polygyny - several wives - but of several husbands and/or wives! - which I also reject!)

Cultural prevalence is not necessarily a sign of “normality”. Polygamy is not considered normal in orthodox Christianity or most other religions.

 

[tonyrey]

The contrast between love and sex is evident when they are related to knowledge. Their purpose is to unite a man and a woman spiritually and physically. Both spiritual and carnal knowledge are good because they are both gifts from God but both become evil when they are used to exploit others for our own pleasure and satisfaction because we are disobeying the command to love others as we love ourselves.

Sexual abuse occurs whenever sexual activity is not motivated by concern for the welfare and happiness of another person - not only a child but anyone who becomes a victim of lust. Spiritual abuse occurs whenever another person’s love is desecrated by false promises and discarded as soon as they have served their foul purpose. The worst evil occurs when both the body and the soul are treated as if they are only means to an end rather than ends in themselves.

The legend of Faust describes a pact with the devil to achieve power and success. The modern equivalent is a pact with oneself: “I shall do anything I desire provided I can get away with it - and to hell with everybody else!” The reality is that the rejection of love leads to hell because spiritual love is the highest form of knowledge. When it is combined with physical love it fulfils one of the purposes for which we have been created: to be perfectly united as a man and woman created for each other in the image of God. That is why the ecstasy of romantic love is so enduring in spite of so much cynicism and ridicule. It is not based on an illusion but on the fact that we don’t exist by Chance but as the result of Design…

 

[razredge]

You imply that I have encouraged polygamy - which is not the case because it rejects the principle of equality. (Unless you’re thinking of polygyny - several wives - but of several husbands and/or wives! - which I also reject!)

Cultural prevalence is not necessarily a sign of “normality”. Polygamy is not considered normal in orthodox Christianity or most other religions.

I know you don’t advocate polygamy, neither do I - I was making the point that it is more normal than same sex marriage (which finds wide acceptance today) and was practiced in the Bible and most ancient cultures.

And polygamy means marriage to more than 1 partner, polygyny and polyandry are the practice of 1 man/woman being married to more than 1 person of the opposite sex, polygamy is an umbrella term for both.

 

[tonyrey]

I know you don’t advocate polygamy, neither do I - I was making the point that it is more normal than same sex marriage (which finds wide acceptance today) and was practiced in the Bible and most ancient cultures.

Until Jesus introduced the revolution against patriarchal society…

And polygamy means marriage to more than 1 partner, polygyny and polyandry are the practice of 1 man/woman being married to more than 1 person of the opposite sex, polygamy is an umbrella term for both.

The umbrella for inequality and injustice in many marriages…

 

[tonyrey]

The teaching of Jesus is unique in its concept of love at the heart of reality and the foundation of all morality. God is no longer a remote Creator but a Father who is intimately related to His creatures and even concerned about the humble sparrows falling to the ground. St Francis of Assisi saw the full implications of divine love:

“If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.”

He realised that the Sun, Wind, Fire and Air are our Brothers and the Moon, Water, Earth and Death are our Sisters because we all have one Father. Yet John Calvin went too far when he declared that not a single drop of rain falls without the express command of God. Our Creator is not the Supreme Mechanic but the Supreme Artist whose Universe is not operated by divine fiats but by laws which make it possible for His creatures to be independent and creative. The richness and beauty of nature far exceed that of any machine - which is why materialism is a hopelessly inadequate explanation of reality.

Sexual reproduction with its information system is an outstanding example of delegated creativity. Before they die some organisms make provision for their offspring to ensure that they survive. Even at the natural level love transcends death! So it is not surprising that the Son of God came into the world to ensure that we do not perish:

“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”

His sublime message is that through His death and ours we shall experience love to the full - if we learn to love others as He loves us…

 

[tonyrey]

“There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”

No one has ever refuted this statement because it is irrefutable! But it has to be interpreted in its proper context. Jesus didn’t allow Himself to be taken prisoner and executed until His mission was accomplished. It is folly to invite death when it is not necessary because we are created for life and love. The only valid reason to sacrifice ourselves is to prevent a greater evil. Normally we are justified in defending ourselves against some one who wants to kill us. Otherwise we become accomplices to murder and implicitly reject the value of our life on earth. We don’t love others by encouraging them to torture and administer capital punishment…

Our first obligation is to love God which entails loving ourselves. If we don’t love ourselves we cannot love God because it amounts to regarding ourselves as valueless. This is logical if we believe there is no reason why we exist and just happen to be alive. If only matter exists nothing matters! Yet it is unreasonable to reject reason, purpose and love. All living organisms seek to survive because life is worthwhile. If it had nothing to offer why would they bother? The urge to live is a response to divine love!

That is why death seems the antithesis of purpose and love. Camus believed it is “le supreme abus”. What is the point of being alive if we become extinct? The message of Jesus is that we don’t! We are not created for death but it is an essential element of life on earth. He told us not to fear those who kill the body but those who kill the soul, i.e. those who destroy love by making us believe it doesn’t exist and that we should eat, drink and stake everything on power, wealth, sex, pleasure and satisfaction in this life. Jesus chose to let Himself be killed unjustly because it was the best way of liberating us from our weakness, blindness, selfishness and lack of love for God, for others and for ourselves. If we regard ourselves as animals we devalue ourselves and are incapable of the highest form of love even for ourselves because we don’t believe it exists!

 

[bdsmslave201109]

yes, i love chastity.
spicesforlove.com/

 

[tonyrey]

The most obvious connection between love and sex is that they are both creative. We share in God’s creative power by being able to choose for ourselves and to bring persons into the world. Both feats are miraculous because they cannot be explained scientifically. Free will infringes the law of conservation of physical energy and demonstrates the existence of supernatural energy. We have the astounding ability to defy and reject the Creator of the universe…

That is why there has been a colossal amount of unnecessary suffering throughout the history of the human race. An English philosopher, Professor C.E.M.Joad, became a Christian because he realised that selfishness, cruelty and callousness are often so diabolical they cannot have a natural explanation. The horrific reality of evil cannot be dismissed as the result of insanity because some of the worst crimes are premeditated and carefully planned by individuals who are normal in other respects. Men and women take a fiendish delight in inflicting torture and death on their helpless victims because it gives them a sense of absolute power…

All evil is due to a lack of love and compassion. It divides and destroys what God has intended to be united and fulfilled. When sex is inspired by concern for another person’s happiness and spiritual well-being it is a beautiful reflection of divine creativity. When it is motivated by selfish and perverted desires it is an ugly image of hellish destruction not only in the massacre of unborn children but also in the disintegration of families and communities. What seems harmless pleasure becomes a devastating source of the misery experienced by single parents and children deprived of the affection and love of their father or mother.

Sex without God is a potential cause of disaster because it is a powerful instinct which is no longer controlled by unselfish love. In fact unselfish love becomes an illusion in a world dominated by physical causes and life becomes dominated by the quest for physical satisfaction - dominated in turn by the pursuit of sexual fulfilment. Romantic love is distorted into a union of two bodies (without souls) which are temporarily united and then go their separate ways. John Stuart Mill said it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. He didn’t mention that Socrates believed we appreciate truth, justice, beauty and love because we have a soul!

“What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world…?”

 

[tonyrey]

The fundamental feature of reality is its dynamism and directiveness. Since the Big Bang there has been a steady increase in multiplicity, complexity, variety and organisation. Living organisms have constantly become more conscious, versatile, efficient, stable, sensitive and autonomous. By any standards there has been progressive development which has led to the harmony, richness and beauty of the universe culminating in rational beings capable of understanding, appreciating and enjoying life.

But at the heart of reality there is one outstanding feature that has not been mentioned. It is the fact of creativity which is reflected in the exquisite achievements of nature and mankind. The most creative force of which we are aware is love - which has inspired the finest works of art, architecture, music, literature, science, philosophy and religion. Without love life is empty and meaningless. Romantic love is its most spectacular form because it is related to one of our deepest instincts - that of reproducing ourself and the person we most admire and cherish. But it is not limited to procreation. It fulfils our need to be united and liberated from our inner solitude: to share everything we are, possess and desire.

Yet the greatest love embraces the entire universe. It explains the immense value of existence and our capacity for universal love - like that of St Francis - which can extend to every living creature and even the inanimate objects on which we depend and of which our bodies are composed. At the end of his Divine Comedy Dante wrote:

“l’Amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.” - The Love which moves the sun and the other stars.

His concept of the universe was medieval but it is based on the primacy of Love as opposed to inanimate objects which cannot even explain themselves! We cannot understand how God exists but we do know it is absurd to derive creativity from loveless particles of physical energy!

 

[tonyrey]

Sex has been created - like everything else - but love is uncreated and eternal. It is the Ultimate Reality without which nothing else would exist. The divine nature is neither masculine nor feminine. We refer to the Father only because Jesus was born into a patriarchal society by choice not by necessity. He could have chosen to be a woman but that would have alienated the Jews and defeated the purpose of being born in this world. Even as a man His teaching of universal love was revolutionary enough to bring about His execution.

He certainly couldn’t have ignored Jewish customs and preached in the synagogue without causing an uproar. He knew that to speak of God as “our Mother” would have met with incomprehension and ridicule. He based His teaching on an appeal to reason with parables taken from people’s everyday experience, not an outright rejection of customs on which Jewish family life and society were based. The mere fact that he consorted with women led to outrage and condemnation. Yet he made it quite clear that everyone - including women and children - is loved by God.

We refer to the Son of God only because Jesus was born, lived, died and was resurrected as a man in a patriarchal society. In heaven His glorified body retains its human nature but His divine nature transcends human attributes. He pointed out that physical sexuality no longer exists after we die. Yet our personality is not asexual! Masculine and feminine traits are an essential part of our nature and deeply influence our thoughts and emotions. If there were no continuity between this life and the next we wouldn’t be the same persons!

Mary is the Mother of God incarnate because she was a woman whose glorified body retains its essential characteristics. Unlike the Manichaeans we don’t regard the body as evil but as the temple of the Holy Spirit. It was created out of love, by love and for love. When Jesus told us that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak He didn’t mean it is the only source of temptation. Lust is a deadly sin because it degrades both the mind and body but pride is the deadliest sin because it devalues others and makes a person inhuman. The humility of Mary is the antithesis of the lust for power. She chose to be the handmaid of the Lord and became the Queen of heaven. The Devil succeeded in obtaining his own kingdom by rejecting God’s love and became the Lord of hell where self-love reigns supreme:

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”…

 

[tonyrey]

1. Love is the main purpose of life whereas the main purpose of sex is the continuation of life.
2. The unity, stability and happiness of the family are based on the love of the father and mother which is reflected in their love for their children and their children’s love for them.
3. The love of the family reflects divine love and should radiate to others rather than make them feel excluded.
4. Love cannot be harmful whereas sex can and often is.
5. Love is always unitive whereas sex is often divisive.
6. Abstinence from sex often leads to greater joy but the absence of love always leads to greater misery.
7. The joy of love is far more fulfilling and enduring than the pleasure of sex.
8. Love outlasts death whereas physical sex does not.
9. Although God transcends sex we shall retain our masculine and feminine traits in heaven because they are an essential part of our human nature.
10. Perfect love entails the dedication of our whole being to God and to others so that we identify ourselves with them totally and exist in peace and harmony:

“United we stand but divided we fall”! (pace Thomas Jefferson)

 

[Sair]

1. Love is the main purpose of life whereas the main purpose of sex is the continuation of life.

Some would say that the main purpose of life is the continuation of life…

1. The unity, stability and happiness of the family are based on the love of the father and mother which is reflected in their love for their children and their children’s love for them.

If a child’s parents love and respect each other, then the children will have this as an example to look up to; one of the best things parents can wish for their children is that they will form strong and fulfilling relationships, and this wish is only enhanced if the parents have done so themselves.

1. The love of the family reflects divine love and should radiate to others rather than make them feel excluded.

Nice ideal, but the reality is that the nuclear family is often an isolating arrangement.

1. Love cannot be harmful whereas sex can and often is.

I would debate whether or not it is possible for love to be harmful; it depends upon one’s concept of love and how one sees fit to express it. I would agree that sex is often used in such a way that it is harmful to those involved.

1. Love is always unitive whereas sex is often divisive.

Love for other persons is always unitive; love for concepts or ideals is often divisive.

1. Abstinence from sex often leads to greater joy but the absence of love always leads to greater misery.

Abstinence from sex when one does not desire sex is far more satisfying than sex when one does not wish for it! Sex should always be entered into willingly and with understanding of the possible consequences.

1. The joy of love is far more fulfilling and enduring than the pleasure of sex.

But there is no doubt that the shared pleasure of sex can enhance and strengthen the joy of love.

1. Love outlasts death whereas physical sex does not.

You might retain love for a friend or lover who has died, but it is doubtful that they still exist in any form capable of returning such love.

1. Although God transcends sex we shall retain our masculine and feminine traits in heaven because they are an essential part of our human nature.

What about people born without a specific gender, or with aspects of both? What about transsexuals? Are they less than human?

1. Perfect love entails the dedication of our whole being to God and to others so that we identify ourselves with them totally and exist in peace and harmony

I wouldn’t dispute this as an ideal (our respective definitions of god notwithstanding) but I would suggest that the predominant concept of love in our monogamous society is too insular to allow this. Self-interest has taken hold as the dominant ideal, to the point where finding a life partner and raising a family is not a demonstration of selflessness, but an extension of self-interest, possessiveness and entitlement.

 

[tonyrey]

1. Love is the main purpose of life whereas the main purpose of sex is the continuation of life.

Is that your view?

2. The unity, stability and happiness of the family are based on the love of the father and mother which is reflected in their love for their children and their children’s love for them.

If a child’s parents love and respect each other, then the children will have this as an example to look up to; one of the best things parents can wish for their children is that they will form strong and fulfilling relationships, and this wish is only enhanced if the parents have done so themselves.

True.

3. The love of the family reflects divine love and should radiate to others rather than make them feel excluded.

Nice ideal, but the reality is that the nuclear family is often an isolating arrangement.

That is the fault of one or more of its members.

4. Love cannot be harmful whereas sex can and often is.

I would debate whether or not it is possible for love to be harmful; it depends upon one’s concept of love and how one sees fit to express it. I would agree that sex is often used in such a way that it is harmful to those involved.

Reasonable love cannot be deliberately harmful.

5. Love is always unitive whereas sex is often divisive.

Love for other persons is always unitive; love for concepts or ideals is often divisive.

If they conflict with love!

6. Abstinence from sex often leads to greater joy but the absence of love always leads to greater misery.

Abstinence from sex when one does not desire sex is far more satisfying than sex when one does not wish for it! Sex should always be entered into willingly and with understanding of the possible consequences.

True.

7. The joy of love is far more fulfilling and enduring than the pleasure of sex.

But there is no doubt that the shared pleasure of sex can enhance and strengthen the joy of love.

True.

8. Love outlasts death whereas physical sex does not.

You might retain love for a friend or lover who has died, but it is doubtful that they still exist in any form capable of returning such love.

Not if one believes in the primacy of love…

9. Although God transcends sex we shall retain our masculine and feminine traits in heaven because they are an essential part of our human nature.

What about people born without a specific gender, or with aspects of both? What about transsexuals? Are they less than human?

Why should they be?

10. Perfect love entails the dedication of our whole being to God and to others so that we identify ourselves with them totally and exist in peace and harmony

I wouldn’t dispute this as an ideal (our respective definitions of god notwithstanding) but I would suggest that the predominant concept of love in our monogamous society is too insular to allow this. Self-interest has taken hold as the dominant ideal, to the point where finding a life partner and raising a family is not a demonstration of selflessness, but an extension of self-interest, possessiveness and entitlement.

That is not a defect of monogamy but of the husband or wife or both.