Conpiracies

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Wow, what a perfectly typical response, exactly in-line with all of my complaints.

Thank you? for making my points for me.

Everyone who thinks the sexual revolution of the 1960s was the work of the Masons, raise your hand!

Now, since no one raised their hand (see, I’m giving everyone the benfit of the doubt on their sanity), we need to quit blaming society’s problems with sexual permissiveness on continuing Masonic conspiracy!

The Masons are almost gone, now. They are old, they are unpopular, they are almost faded away. Young people do not join the Masons or Eastern Star any more. It just isn’t happening.

Please, please, quit seeing Masons under the bed.
 
stmaria said:
Are you sayin that Alta Vendita is just a rumor?
catholicvoice.co.uk/dillon/text.htm#14

Are you saying that Pope Leo XIII encyclical on Freemasonry is a rumor?
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm

Are you saying that Pascendi-doctrine of the modernists is a rumor?

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm
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Bingo. Leo XIII’s encyclical likens Freemasonry to the city of Satan, and reveals its conspiratorial character.

Also Pius IX expressly approved the first work that published Alta Vendita documents. We didn’t make this up.
 
Jimbo2 said:
Wow, what a perfectly typical response, exactly in-line with all of my complaints.

Thank you? for making my points for me.

Everyone who thinks the sexual revolution of the 1960s was the work of the Masons, raise your hand!

Now, since no one raised their hand (see, I’m giving everyone the benfit of the doubt on their sanity), we need to quit blaming society’s problems with sexual permissiveness on continuing Masonic conspiracy!

The Masons are almost gone, now. They are old, they are unpopular, they are almost faded away. Young people do not join the Masons or Eastern Star any more. It just isn’t happening.

Please, please, quit seeing Masons under the bed.
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How do you know? I know personally some young people who have. See you gone so far the other way and I was there too. Hopefully you won’t be there long, it’s a lonely place.
 
I am not one to see Freemasons under my bed and the Illuminati in every shadow, and I certainly detest that some Catholics put so much of their faith into these theories. However, I am not naive either. While I dont think the Freemasons, with the Jesuits as their public front, are plotting world domination in a secret bunker under the leadership of the Prince of Wales, I do admit that something that gone wrong.

Certain facts have to be admitted. Consider that from the fall of the Papal States (to the King of Savoy who was the Grand Master of the Italian Freemasons- that is an undisputed fact btw) until the reign of John XXIII, the Church feared recalling the Vatican Council (Vatican I did not officialy end until 1963) because of the growing concern over modernism and relativism entering the Church (Pius IX and Pius X did not so aggressively denounce modernism for their health- they saw that these errors were a real issue). Pius X openly expressed fears that the Council could be hijacked, and Pius XI was warned by Cardinal Billot that Modernism was the worst enemy of the Church. The Freemasons, while maybe not covering up alien conspiracies, were fervantly denounced by the pre-concilar Popes, and even in 1984 then-Cardinal Ratzinger issued a document upholding the ban and excommunication against them (in spite of the 1984 Code of Canon Law which fails to mention them by name, as the 1917 Code did).

The facts are:
  • The heresies of Modernism are real and evident threats to the Church.
  • The Freemasons have been denounced by the Church,past and present, for good reason. Masonry is anti-Catholic and supports ideals which are dangerous to human society and against the Catholic faith- much of these ideals are the very same errors of Modernism.
  • Pius IX and Pius X and many others were not merely paranoid nutjobs when they forcefully decried the evils of Modernism and preached against Freemasonry.
  • In 1963 Pope John XIII mocked the “prophets of gloom and doom” over their fears of modernism entering the Church through the Council. Paul VI would later admit that the smoke of Satan was in the Church.
 
- Pius IX and Pius X and many others were not merely paranoid nutjobs when they forcefully decried the evils of Modernism and preached against Freemasonry.

Am I the only person who knows how long ago that was? And how far the Masons have fallen in that time?

Maybe there are more crazies here than I thought.

I remain convinced that paranoia is the single greatest problem facing Traditional Catholicism.

Hey, how about we get some of the staff apologists from CA to weigh in Masonic conspiracies? If any of the people who work at CA believe that Masonic conspiracies are a danger facing the Church today, I will eat my shoe and put the video on YouTube.
 
Seems like you only came here to knock Traditional Catholics, now the reason you got banned becomes a bit clearer. If you wish to participate in disparaging traditional catholics there are many liberal boards that will love you.
 
And there it is - the choice is always placed before me. Tolerate, even embrace the craziness, or else go hang out with the liberals.

What a bunch of hogwash.

Traditional Catholicism has nothing to do with Masonic conspiracies, Communism, or any other thankfully dead or dying artifacts of the 19th century. The social landscape in which the Church operates changes through the ages. Dangers and opporunities change, are replaced by new ones.

The Cathari, the Albigensians, they eventually faded into history, and to claim Albigensian conspiracies today would be foolish. Now the Masons are almost gone, the communists have had their day. Now it’s new antagonists.

But, for some reason, Traditionalist Catholics remain wedded to the old fears, the old antagnosists. As a result, the entire movement is continually discredited. It’s the equivalent of UFO believers or bigfoot hunters.

AQ has a traditionalist agenda, needs the numbers. I doubt CA does. This forum wouldn’t be affected much in numbers if it had any trad members or not. And, I’m not aware of any of the staff being the kind of people who see Masons and communists everywhere. So, I’m pretty sure they can see the difference between “Tradition Bashing” and criticism of weird accretions onto Traditional Catholcism that actually have nothing to do with the faith and would be better left behind.
 
It’s sad. They are people who give Traditionalism a bad name. It’s as if they’re the Catholic version of Jack T. Chick (who believes the Catholics, especially the Jesuits, are the root of all evils). As Anti-Catholics attack from the outside, these people are like the 5th Column within us. 😦
 
While there is no proof that Annibale Bugnini was a Freemason he does refer , in his book Reform of the Liturgy,to the dossier that was given to Pope Paul. Why did Pope Paul remove him after 11 years as secretary and send him to Iran never to be heard of again?
Part of the problem in the Church today is the authority given to Bishops to regulate the Liturgy. This was Bugnini’s idea. Had he not been removed every Church would have liturgy that would be "adapted"to its parishioners.
In his book he clearly shows his belief that “participation of the people” was the most important part of the reform.The following is from his book. He thought this machine was “ingenious”. If any of you agree with Bugnini, then I give up.
Pg 209 Footnote 11. “The use of things mechanical also make headlines at the beginning of the liturgical reform…the “offertory machine” at Ferrara. This was a machine that allowed the faithful to make a host drop untouched into baskets, which were then taken to the altar at the time of the offertory. It was a clever way of letting the people express their participation and of consecration as many hosts as would be needed at the celebration, while at the same time safeguarding hygiene. But some journalists discovered the ingenious device and spread word of it; in the process, however, they misrepresented its function and spoke of it as though it were a machine for the automatic distribution of communion. Here again the Consilium had to intervene; it dealt with the matter in general terms in a short piece entitled “Mechanique et liturgie.”
 
bpbasilphx said:
**I think, for me, the real deal-breaker is the Masonic thing. I got booted from AQ (I think) for demanding proof of even one Masonic plot against the Vatican.

If one disbelieves in the continuing malevolent, powerful Masonic influence, someone always accuses them of disbelieving Church teaching.**

According to some arch-Protestant polemicists, it’s not just a Masonic conspiracy. It’s a Vatican-Masonic conspiracy.

And then there are those who say it’s some combination of Zionist-Communist-Vatican-Masonic conspiracy. (Pick your favorite 2 or 3.)
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I used to roll my eyes at all of the conspiracy theories. But until you have investigated them thoroughly you will remain invincibly ignorant.
After I read Liturgical Time Bombs, the *Ottaviani Intervention *and then read Annibale Bugnini’s *Reform of the Liturgy *there was no doubt in my mind that ambiguous text was intentionally put into the Constitution of the Liturgy so that the reformers could introduce drastic changes into the Mass. Also read *The Rhine flows into the Tiber *for a historic view of how the Council unfolded. If you haven’t read all of these books, you are in no position to claim that the conspiracy theories are unfounded.
Bugnini was a radical reformer. Here is what he thought of the TLM
Pg114 “But how difficult it is to take an ancient building in hand and make it functional and habitable without changing the structure. Peripheral alterations are not enough; there had to be a radical restoration”
Pg 44 “Signs and rites are likely to become incrusted by time, that is, to grow old and outmoded. They may therefore need to be revised and updated, so that the expression of the Church’s worship may reflect the perennial youthfulness of the Church itself…the Liturgy feeds the Church’s life; it must therefore remain dynamic and not be allowed to stagnate or become petrified “
In Annibale Bugnini’s book *Reform of the Liturgy *he said that the Consilium, of which he was the secretary, decided to remove the words ‘Mystery of Faith” because:
Pg 454 “ The addition “mystery of faith” in the formula for the consecration of the wine in the Roman Canon: is not biblical; occurs only in the Roma Canon; is of uncertain orgin.”
Catechism council of Trent and the Lateran Council contradict his statement.
catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/trentc.htm
Form of the Eucharist
. …But the words, eternal, and the mystery of faith, have **been taught us by holy tradition, the interpreter and keeper of Catholic truth.
**LATERAN COUNCIL III 1179 catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma5.php

414 You have asked (indeed) who has added to the form of the words which Christ Himself expressed when He changed the bread and wine into the body and blood, that in the Canon of the Mass which the general Church uses, which none of the Evangelists is read to have expressed. . . . In the Canon of the Mass that expression, "mysterium fidei,"is found interposed among His words. . From the expression, moreover, concerning which your brotherhood raised the question, namely “mysterium fidei,” certain people have thought to draw a protection against error… Yet “mysterium fidei” is mentioned, since something is believed there other than what is perceived; and something is perceived other than is believed… **Therefore, we believe that the form of words, as is found in, the Canon, the Apostles received from Christ, and their successors from them. **
. . .
Surely Bugnini and the reformers were aware of the source of” Mystery of Faith” yet they chose to ignore it.
 
Jimbo2 said:
If one disbelieves in the continuing malevolent, powerful Masonic influence, someone always accuses them of disbelieving Church teaching.
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Oh, goodness, it’s not just the Masons with some trads. If you also happen to voice an opinion that women can wear pants, go to college, work outside the home, etc., you’re obviously part of the crowd that wants women priests and rock bands at mass.

:cool:
 
Ok, this thread has gotten way too uncharitable. We are seeing two extremes- those who see conspiracies everywhere and those who like to close their eyes, cover their eyes and pretend everything in the Church is fine. We cannot go so far as to be suspicious of everyone and everything, yet we cannot lapse into ignorance over the facts.
Am I the only person who knows how long ago that was? And how far the Masons have fallen in that time?
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The Masons may be going the way of the dinosaurs today, but they were strong up until the 1970s. And just because they arent as big as they used to be doesnt mean they no longer exist (within 4 blocks of me there is a Masonic Temple, the local Shriners HQ, a Chinese Masonic Lodge, and and Orange Hall). Traditionalists (regardless of what Bishop Williamson says [edited by Moderator]) for the most part are not saying that the Church is being infiltrated by the Masons today (although I wouldnt discount that, I am sure that there are still some Masons among the older clergy), but that the influence of the Masons is (partly, perhaps) the cause of the misinterpretations of the Vatican II and the shocking reform of the 1960s and 70s.

Besides, Masons are no Masons, Modernism is still a factor.
 
and those who like to close their eyes, cover their eyes and pretend everything in the Church is fine.

Wow, you really don’t get it, do you?

This is what I’m raving about. Any resistance to the conspiracy agenda gets one branded this way by certain trads. Again, thanks for making my point better than I ever could.
 
Jimbo2 said:
and those who like to close their eyes, cover their eyes and pretend everything in the Church is fine.

Wow, you really don’t get it, do you?

This is what I’m raving about. Any resistance to the conspiracy agenda gets one branded this way by certain trads. Again, thanks for making my point better than I ever could.
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I don’t recall specificaly mentioning you but, to use an old cliche, if the shoe fits…
 
I think the point is abundantly made.

Every group of trads in the entire world will have an high percentage of credulous people who will believe conpsiracies. They will often be intolerant of those who refuse to believe such things and will equate their refusal to liberalism and anti-Catholicism.

Under these circumstances, it is very difficult for reasonable people to become part of a traditionalist group, and often difficult for traditionalist groups to relate well to the rest of the Church.

The effort for a TLM parish in my diocese has been frustrated by this aspect of traditionalism.

If traditionalism doesn’t clean up its act, it’s going to sabotage the plans outlined in the MP for personal parishes, etc.
 
Jimbo2 said:
If traditionalism doesn’t clean up its act, it’s going to sabotage the plans outlined in the MP for personal parishes, etc.
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As Padre Pio used to say:
“Pray, hope, and don’t worry!”

Jesus Christ and the Immaculate Heart will triumph.
 
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