Conquest of Canaan

[Epistemes]

Muslims interpret the conquest of Canaan, as a jihad - a holy war to kill idolaters. Yet jihad has a bad name in the West, quite rightly so, except it seems by some in defending the Old Testament.

I had never made that connection before, but you’re right. I wonder if proponents of OT as allegory think 9/11 was allegorical. Probably not since they’ll claim it was an act of the devil and not the Christian God, but the same principle does apply.

My point was to point out the logical extension of these type of killings. If God is a god of blood and violence, then Pilate ought to have written “I-NRA” on the plaque for Christ’s crucifixion.

 

[Epistemes]

I guess you can see justice in God punishing idolaters in Canaan. But “killing everything that breathes” does not seem either fair or just. And seems to contradict the peaceful and forgiving nature of God presented in the gospel message in the sermon on the mount.

The nature of the killings is particularly tribal, not divine. I gathered this concept more after watching Mel Gibson’s “Apocalypto.” (Which makes me think that everyone participating in this thread who thinks these “stories” are allegorical should watch that movie and believe that such terror could ever be allegorical.)

This early version of a scorched earth policy makes perfect sense for tribes. You kill the men because they are the most likely to resist; kill the women because they can potentially birth more men; kill the children because they’ll attempt to revenge their fathers. I’m at a loss for why you would kill animals, unless it be due to subsistence.

 

[Epistemes]

A book that helps is this one:

amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305209475&sr=8-1

It is actually very good and may be right up your alley if you are a Protestant.

Could you please summarize a few of the author’s arguments? Time and money are both precious resources and I, for one, am reluctant to purchase a book for $10 that will ultimately prove to be bunk.

 

[Windfish]

Muslims interpret the conquest of Canaan, as a jihad - a holy war to kill idolaters. Yet jihad has a bad name in the West, quite rightly so, except it seems by some in defending the Old Testament.

Then that’s one more thing that Muslims are wrong about. There is a whole chapter on that on Paul Copan’s God Goes to Starbucks. Check it out.

 

[Windfish]

Could you please summarize a few of the author’s arguments? Time and money are both precious resources and I, for one, am reluctant to purchase a book for $10 that will ultimately prove to be bunk.

There are three chapters on Canaan. I have only skimmed them, so I cannot give a really good summary. It’s definitely not bunk, though.

 

[NotWorthy]

It seems like you believe that capital punishment and war is better than grace, assimilation and peace. That *is *the nature of your question.

I would say that being in grace with God is better than life itself. If you have to lose one, it is far worse to lose Grace with God.

THAT is the nature of my question.

 

[NotWorthy]

I guess you can see justice in God punishing idolaters in Canaan. But “killing everything that breathes” does not seem either fair or just. And seems to contradict the peaceful and forgiving nature of God presented in the gospel message in the sermon on the mount.

Again, since you’ve studied Joshua, lets examine something. **WHY **does God tell the Jews to do what they do?

You can’t question God’s methods if you don’t understand God’s goals.

 

[Dave_B]

Again, since you’ve studied Joshua, lets examine something. **WHY **does God tell the Jews to do what they do?
You can’t question God’s methods if you don’t understand God’s goals.

The reason given is for the Lord to give the Hebrews the promised land, and to punish the Canaanites for worhsipping foreign gods.

For example:

Joshua 24:16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God.”

The issue at the heart of this is the Lord rewarding those that serve him, and being jealous and vengeful against those who serve other gods.

 

[Epistemes]

I would say that being in grace with God is better than life itself. If you have to lose one, it is far worse to lose Grace with God.

THAT is the nature of my question.

You may think that is the nature of your question, but what you imply is something else entirely.

Your question implies, by logical extension, that God sanctions killing for all those who have lost grace with Him. God gave up on reforming the Canaanites and ordered their destruction. And thus, again by logical extension, you must be in favor of executing terrorists, cannibals, rapists and other thugs who utterly reject moralistic or religious reform.

 

[NotWorthy]

The reason given is for the Lord to give the Hebrews the promised land, and to punish the Canaanites for worhsipping foreign gods.

For example:

Joshua 24:16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! 17 It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD, because he is our God.”

The issue at the heart of this is the Lord rewarding those that serve him, and being jealous and vengeful against those who serve other gods.

Wow, you quoted the right answer and then missed it! The Jews were not to mingle with the Canaanites, because they would bring in pagan gods. Whenever the Jews violated this rule, they turned to pagan gods.

That’s why God ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, so that He could protect his first-born. The Israelites turned time and time again to pagan gods and what happened? They faced the curses of the Deuteronomic Covenant in the form of captivity and Dispersion.

Because of this, they were still faced with one covenant curse, the curse of death, until Jesus came and freed them from the curse.

 

[Epistemes]

Wow, you quoted the right answer and then missed it! The Jews were not to mingle with the Canaanites, because they would bring in pagan gods. Whenever the Jews violated this rule, they turned to pagan gods.

That’s why God ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, so that He could protect his first-born. The Israelites turned time and time again to pagan gods and what happened? They faced the curses of the Deuteronomic Covenant in the form of captivity and Dispersion.

Because of this, they were still faced with one covenant curse, the curse of death, until Jesus came and freed them from the curse.

Do you realize how myopic your explanation is?

 

[NotWorthy]

You may think that is the nature of your question, but what you imply is something else entirely.

Your question implies, by logical extension, that God sanctions killing for all those who have lost grace with Him. God gave up on reforming the Canaanites and ordered their destruction. And thus, again by logical extension, you must be in favor of executing terrorists, cannibals, rapists and other thugs who utterly reject moralistic or religious reform.

You assumed my implication incorrectly.

Without the Grace that comes in the New Covenant, one cannot resist the temptations of “this world” without falling. The Jews proved that time and time again. That was my implication. My thoughts are not focused on the Canaanites, but the Israelites.

Instead of executing terrorists, cannibals, rapists, and other thugs who utterly reject moralistic or religious reform, I prefer to pray for their conversion.

It’s one of the things that made me sad and ashamed with all the “celebrating the death of Osama”. I would have much rather seen the man convert than to be shot dead.

Let’s return to the Canaanites. My thoughts on these people and others who are “condemned to death by God” is that God will reserve a special judgment for them based on “how they would have lived their lives if they had been allowed to survive”.

 

[NotWorthy]

Do you realize how myopic your explanation is?

It’s in the very words of Scripture!
“Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods!

If I’m being myopic, its only because the answer is very simple.

 

[Epistemes]

You assumed my implication incorrectly.

Without the Grace that comes in the New Covenant, one cannot resist the temptations of “this world” without falling. The Jews proved that time and time again. That was my implication. My thoughts are not focused on the Canaanites, but the Israelites.

Instead of executing terrorists, cannibals, rapists, and other thugs who utterly reject moralistic or religious reform, I prefer to pray for their conversion.

It’s one of the things that made me sad and ashamed with all the “celebrating the death of Osama”. I would have much rather seen the man convert than to be shot dead.

Let’s return to the Canaanites. My thoughts on these people and others who are “condemned to death by God” is that God will reserve a special judgment for them based on “how they would have lived their lives if they had been allowed to survive”.

Again, the more you say the more you own only prove how myopically you’re thinking. You yourself admit this by saying, “My thoughts are not focused on the Canaanites, but the Israelites.” You also contradict yourself, which is even more misleading. You say that you prefer to pray for hardened criminals and sociopaths, but find comfort in a God who will resort to genocide to preserve ethnic and religious purity only because it fits neatly within your parochial worldview.

I say this not for your benefit, but those who may read this thread and not know any better.

If I’m wrong, let others be the judge, and let God be the ultimate judge.

 

[NotWorthy]

Again, the more you say the more you own only prove how myopically you’re thinking. You yourself admit this by saying, “My thoughts are not focused on the Canaanites, but the Israelites.” You also contradict yourself, which is even more misleading. You say that you prefer to pray for hardened criminals and sociopaths, but find comfort in a God who will resort to genocide to preserve ethnic and religious purity only because it fits neatly within your parochial worldview.

I say this not for your benefit, but those who may read this thread and not know any better.

If I’m wrong, let others be the judge, and let God be the ultimate judge.

And yet, you place yourself as judge… very interesting.

The reason I focus on the Israelites is because they were who the Bible was originally written for. Catholic are fulfilled Israelites, so we, in turn, should focus on the Israelites. The Bible, in any event, was not meant for pagan worshipers, unless God touches them with the Grace to open their hearts to His Message.

Now, should we, as Catholics follow this genocidal way of dealing with pagans? No. Because we are more equipped to fend off the temptations that come with them because of the Grace given to us by God.

But we should understand how dangerous it is to allow these types of temptations to enter into our lives. And we have Joshua’s Book as one of the many reasons why we should feel that this is God’s teaching.

 

[Epistemes]

And yet, you place yourself as judge… very interesting.

The reason I focus on the Israelites is because they were who the Bible was originally written for. Catholic are fulfilled Israelites, so we, in turn, should focus on the Israelites. The Bible, in any event, was not meant for pagan worshipers, unless God touches them with the Grace to open their hearts to His Message.

Now, should we, as Catholics follow this genocidal way of dealing with pagans? No. Because we are more equipped to fend off the temptations that come with them because of the Grace given to us by God.

But we should understand how dangerous it is to allow these types of temptations to enter into our lives. And we have Joshua’s Book as one of the many reasons why we should feel that this is God’s teaching.

And yet history is decidedly against your interpretation of history itself. Take, for instance, the Catholic conquistadors who had no qualms with extermination of pagans. The Crusades, as well. These men acted on their interpretation of the Book of Joshua, which was an interpretation given license by both bishops and the popes.

And to say that the Bible was not meant for pagan worshippers is absurd, even when qualified. “Meant” in what sense? And during what age? Regardless, it’s an absurd statement because it presupposes that there were a plethora of Bibles from which pagans could read from, that pagans were capable of reading Hebrew, etc. If “the Bible” were not “meant” for “pagan worshippers,” then there would be no conversions since His Message is nothing short of the entire Bible - His Word.

I would also caution readers at how anti-Jewish your comments have been so far, which is a shame. Your references to “the Jew” have been derogatory, and the supercessionism of the Church is one of the most pious examples of anti-Jewishness still active. I would seriously urge you to read “The Misunderstood Jew” by Amy Jill-Levine and operate with more charity towards those whom God considers first.

 

[NotWorthy]

And yet history is decidedly against your interpretation of history itself. Take, for instance, the Catholic conquistadors who had no qualms with extermination of pagans. The Crusades, as well. These men acted on their interpretation of the Book of Joshua, which was an interpretation given license by both bishops and the popes.

Ahhh, you show so little knowledge when you make that claim. You make me laugh if you think the Crusades was simply intended to kill all heathens. It was the result of 500 years of Muslims “converting” Christians by the sword. And your history of the Conquistadors is sadly mis-spoken as well.

Take that period of time that you so overwhelmingly ignored. The spread of Christianity was not done by the sword, but against the sword for the vast, vast majority of its history (Charlemagne and the Saxons would be the earliest rebuttal, even if it is ill-begotten).

And to say that the Bible was not meant for pagan worshippers is absurd, even when qualified. “Meant” in what sense? And during what age? Regardless, it’s an absurd statement because it presupposes that there were a plethora of Bibles from which pagans could read from, that pagans were capable of reading Hebrew, etc. If “the Bible” were not “meant” for “pagan worshippers,” then there would be no conversions since His Message is nothing short of the entire Bible - His Word.

That’s why I qualified it with those touched by His Grace to open their hearts to his word. I stand by the words I originally used.

I would also caution readers at how anti-Jewish your comments have been so far, which is a shame. Your references to “the Jew” have been derogatory,

There is nothing derogatory toward the Jews either in my words or thoughts.

You seem to be falling into judgmentalism again. Jesus Promised that He would judge me after I die. I’d appreciate you doing no less!

and the supercessionism of the Church is one of the most pious examples of anti-Jewishness still active. I would seriously urge you to read “The Misunderstood Jew” by Amy Jill-Levine and operate with more charity towards those whom God considers first.

The Jews are still the First-Born of God. But they were intended to follow Jesus into the New Covenant Church. Many did. Many still haven’t. They remain like the caterpillar that was meant to become a butterfly.

But I still love caterpillars, mind you, its just that I’d love to see them fulfill their destiny and follow the Early Jews into the New Church as God intended.